kyle
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Posts posted by kyle
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So we get the XC50, V50, XC70, V70, XC90, and now an XC60?
Crazy.
BTW, Ford's analyst presentation covering their debt financing moves showed a Volvo S60 based on the EUCD architecture.... Not the next S60, but it does in a backhanded fashion, confirm the continuation of the vehicle.
richard...can't remember where I read it but heard that the xc50 is being named the xc60
That thing sure does look great....volvo has to break out of their conserative styling and this thing sure would help....I love the c30 hatch-that thing is going to sell like crazy...volvo is on to something there..
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It's rather ridiculous to herald the Aura as a success simply because it bumped the emaciated Saturn passenger car bottom line. F'r cryin' out loud, Saturn had ONE car to sell most of last year. UNO, ONE, that's 'car' in the singular (and considering we're talking about the ION, also the speculative) case.
Consider also that Saturn's total sales were up 23%, but retail sales were only up 14%. One wonders what the retail mix is on the Aura.
richard...I don't think you can compare what gm did with oldsmobile 10 years ago with what they are doing today...not even close. Not to say what you were proposing would not work, but their products that gm is giving them are pretty damn good. you have to remember that the person buying a saturn 6-8 years ago want something else and that crossover vehicle that they are getting is a hell of a vehicle.
like I said....when they first announced that strategy I too was skeptical but not now....kind of goes back to what many of us are saying that even though ford's new products are good everyone else is not just standing around..
I expect to be disappointed for the next year at least....but after that I expect what mark fields has been preaching-and mulally getting up to speed things will change considerably for the better...put it this way...if all us naysayer's are still bitching about would of, could of, should of-then the other shoe will of dropped by then
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Just shows you what the so-called experts know.
Now that the Taurus is history, I suspect that year-to-date comparisons for the upcoming year will be dismal. You can't walk away from that much fleet volume without an impact.
well they were right about most everyone else...the analysist's gather sales data from a variety of sources including many manufacturer's themselves.....sounded like ford got caught off guard and even suprised themselves that sales declined
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The current 'strategy' with Saturn will fail.
I would of agreed with you last year that it would not work but after seeeing what their products are like I think it will work for them.....their buyer's have mostly been independent-non gm buyer's-very loyal to the brand-like their treatment...and now look at what they have...especially with the hybirds coming-right up their alley...
I think it would never work with mercury though
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That's when car companies generally book revenue (which is why Ford is expecting a pretty substantial decline in revenue this quarter commensurate with a 21% drop in production).
However sales reported are sales to end users, not dealers.
you know as I was typing that I thought I may be wrong...thanks for the clarification
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Can't say I am suprised by the numbers but for some reason analysts were predicting an increase for ford along with GM-chrylser was supposed to be one of the losers
but then again.....when you have a slight delay in shipping the edge/mkx product that does not help as well-since sales are recorded when the vehicle is shipped rather than sold retail
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Ford has the capacity, the paid staff, sufficient to design and build 4M cars a year. They build 75% of that, and are cutting back.
That's why they're not profitable.
No doubt about it....way to big for their volume.
I must say, however, that I'm quite surprised by the number. This is, IIRC, higher as a percentage, and possibly even higher as a total number, than GM, I can't remember off the top of my head.However, it DOES make contract negotiations this summer much easier.
From what I read they anticipate several thousand to change their mind-they have up until the last day to do so-and many signed up just in case things get worse between now and when they are laid off...either way it has to be pretty tough on all involved.
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Ford borrowed $7B, they anticipate $7B in restructuring costs next year.
Everybody who sees a connection between those two figures, raise your hands.
The loan, which matures in 7 years, at an unstated interest rate, can be paid back after 3 years at 100% of the principal (assuming I read the footnotes correctly).
Also, I think Ford's predictions regarding SUV/Pickup sales may be somewhat pessimistic. A lot depends on what happens with oil prices next year.
Finally, it's not so much that Ford has uncompetitive product, it's that they have product that IS competitive, but which carries much lower gross margins (e.g. the CD3s).
Oh yeah.
One more thing.
P & L and cash flow are NOT balance sheet items.
http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/arti...29009/1128/FREE
I am not getting where they borrowed $7-everything that I have read is they are securing $18 in additional financing...giving them almost $38 billion by the end of the year in available cash, lines of credit, etc.
and I don't care how you spin it no one in their mind would of thought they would be burning through $17 in two years....not even the pessimists richard!
and regarding uncompetitive products in the suv market-they sell a hell of a lot more of those than they do in cars and when those vehicles are carrying upwards of $6k in rebates you have a major problem....think that is where the vast majority of layoffs are going to come from
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Interior
RX300 v RX330/350/400h .. they are supposed to be 2 completely separate generations - yet even the interiors are extremely similar ... yet no press ever raised a single piece of fuss ..
besides - it is common knowledge Camry (and Highlander/RX) are riding on a platform dating back to 1992 - sure they have updated it some over the years - BUT IT IS THE SAME PLATFORM ...
Honda does similar things, when they upgrade platforms every OTHER redesign .. e.g. the last 2 generations of Civic were on the same platform - the 06 was all new ... again - noone ever points this out in the press...
Igor
I have no problem telling one from the other....to me not even close...am aware that they are both lexus but they share not one piece of sheet metal as opposed to what ford has been doing with just about all of their prouducts back to I think the last taurus redesign...
and I agree with you about chasis carry over from honda and toyota-that is one of the things ford is trying to do-but they at least change the body of the vehicle.
michael you are right that it is hard to comment on the vehicle without pricing info-it just better be damn competitive. And regarding the $2k difference in pricing between the rav 4, crv and escape...don't overlook the fact that the residuals on the other two are much higher resulting in a lower lease price-which seems what mostly is advertised in the atlanta papers on saturday
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If you took the time to actually read the filing you would see that was a direct quote from Ford.
Ford is preparing to have a negative cash flow of 17B over the next two years. That is on top of the 3B that will come out of their liquid position in the 4thQ.
Might I remind you, that "you" are the one that brought up profit and loss. Not I. Cash flow and profit/loss are different line items on the ledger.
what's a ledger:))))
just messing with you...self employed know all about ledgers, p&l's, etc.
know doubt about it....you don't go out and secure that kind of money if you don't think you are going to use it....at least they are getting ready for battle!!
Well shoot.Ford's going to lose $3B in revenue next year from cancellation of the Taurus alone.
It is interesting, though, that Ford expects to be operationally $10B in the red through 2009. They must be expecting the SUV and pickup markets to just take a dive the next two years.
richard think you are right...the suv market is going to continue decline and on top of that you have less than competitive products....think that is why they mentioned that the next explorer is going to be car based.
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Insiders say Fields was absolutely disgusted at the SUV redesigns so I have hoe these dud will be the end of the old Ford ways of doing things.
that may be the best news I have seen on this site since we heard that the mks would get a V8!
heh...at least it was good news for a little while!
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I don't think there is any carry oversheet metal from the outgoing verison.
Look at this:
08 Mariner
2006 Mariner
Quite a bit of difference...
you are kidding right? for a minute there I thought you were serious....
hey if anyone is interseted in a car site that actually talks about cars, and doesn't whine or attack people pm me, and i send you the link. this place is like jr highgood one!
We've gone through this quite a few times SVT. It is ok for Toyota to perform the exercise with the Camry, but god forbid Ford do it. Toyota is allowed to do it, because it is Toyota. Toyota consumers notice the similarities from one year to the next, but will still purchase the Camry just because.Ford does it and it is an instant failure. Coupled with mismanagement. And there you have it the sky is falling.
This message board is quite the joke these days.
michael...please show me where the camry looks anywhere near the previous model? Or for that matter any toyota product...they are capturing market share because they update their vehicles every 4-5 years, have a well earned reputation, putting content back into their products (unlike the mid 90's when they were decontenting due to the yen fluctation), entering new markets they have not been in before and creating new markets that did not exist 5 years ago.....
but you are right about one thing....the fucking sky is falling....they have 5 years to turn this thing around and you have to remember it is not like gm, honda, toyota, nissan are just going to let up and start turning out crappy products
but I do like the new escape! it's main competition is going to be from korea which is pretty sad...and their is no way in hell that this thing can stay out in the market like this until 2012 (assuming 4 years for redo's...no fing way!)
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kind of wondering where richard has been the past few days...hope you are feeling better...yah some things never change.
the same people that think ford can do a lot better job are here and the one's that justify every decision they make are here as well.....
got me thinking about one of the topics regarding the orlando auto show...one of the comments was that ford is aware of this site (no suprise) and debate about some of the things we debate here.
I would wager money that the things some of us want and think ford needs to be successful are the things that the bean counters are not allowing...thus launching vehicles that though they may be better than their predeceseor are not nearly best in class.
I hope I am not on the side of the accountants thats for damn sure!
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"that is BS" No its reality kid.
well I am not a kid, but thank you! the point being is people that are buying these vehicles are mostly first or 2nd time buyer's-young-daddy's money, etc.
look at how well toyota is doing with the scion lineup....there best seller is a hatch. The point being-and maybe the focus is in to large of a segment-but the vehicles that are coming to market offer a wide range of versatility and I think ford would be foolish to not recognize that.
I would love to hear some more details about their b car that they previewed the past two days....suprised we have not heard more...where is our insider's???
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its just amazing that they can unload 38,000+ workers and still produce the same product that they did before the buyouts... talk about over capacity... just shows that the UAW is more worried about headcount than the individual worker or Ford Motor Co....
not quite certain if I understand what you mean about the UAW?
and though the buyouts have occurred the actual seperation is not until next september...but you are right....they just have way to many employees...and this does not even touch the salaried employees
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Whats the biggest car based market in the USA? Mid-sized sedans, namely the Accord and Camry. Europe and the US are two totally different markets and Diesel in Europe is cheaper to run overall due to taxes on fuel and MPG it gets. Not to mention the US has now the stricticts light duty deisel emissions in the world doesnt help much. For example you can't even buy a light duty diesel in a CARB state, which cuts out nearly 25% of your market.
agree with you about the changing market with the diesel fuel but if the industry had been producing desireable product for the past 10 years like vw's jettas diesel you would of saw alot more cooperation between the oil and automobile industry.
the 4 door sedan market is the largest in the us but how many of them are fleet related-25% maybe. But that is changing-that market size will decline as more vehicles come to market that don't have a category. What would youl call the volvo c30-the mazda 5-the matrix? People want versatility of out their automobile and some companies are moving quicker in offering multiple use vehicles-imo.
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Keep in Mind that the Escape is the Small "Truck" where as the Edge is the small CUV.
I don't think the edge is considered a small CUV
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If Ford offers up the quality enhancements at a lower price. Then good work.
Correction: Ford BETTER value price the hell out of the Escape. Judging from the new VUE that was recently unvieled, it is going to have some rough competition.
agree with you michael....that vue is pretty nice looking. I like the escape-even the grill-much better packaged than the explorer or expedition...but the competition continues to develop very good product as well....
kind of like the buick enclave-that is the first buick I would ever buy-just think it is going to be a huge seller and some of the shortcomings of the lincoln are magnified-and I happen to like the mkx-just don't see it being the best in it's class.
got to give the general some credit....they are starting to run on all cylinders-probably 3-4 years ahead of where ford is right now
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. The US could care less about hatches, unless they are some how connected to a SUV or CUV.
that is bullshit.....that type of reasoning is why we don't have the best small cars sold here like they do in europe....with diesels....if I hear one more time that the us consumer will not buy diesels because of what gm did 20 years ago I will throw up.....the target market for these vehicles were not even born then!
is the focus an improvement....yah....could they of done better...most certainly.
3-4 years is a lifetime in the industry.....something ford no longer has now that the banks are going to lien everything ford has.
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Speaking off the Orlando car show that I also attended... I myself spoke to someone who really had NO IDEA where the basis of the Zephyr/MKZ came from. But quietly I just let him go on and on and on, just sinking himself. Then I asked, "So where does the Focus platform come from, and the 500" and just let him go on and on.
THen I corrected him...tells me that THAT Is what the literature taught him. Told him he needed to do some hardcore research, even Wikepedia if possible...even THEY have the information of where the CD3 platform comes from.
Simply horrible. I rather have someone honestly tell me "I dont know" than to just go on and on.
sounds like you spoke to a "product specialist"..basically someone from a talent agency hired by all the car companies as representatives of the product....most of them are models, actors, etc that are very good looking and appeal to what the brand wants it's image to portray.
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like I said before....bitching is more fun! Just so everyone knows....ford is the only car company that builds motors that get more gas mileage after 3k miles on them....all the other's don't!
Am I missing something here....the thing is a PIG! Although not in my prime athletic conditioning....I would love to race someone in a hundred yard dash that is the same height and weighs 100 more lbs...
For me personally I am not as concerned about fuel mileage-don't believe that will be a deciding factor-but the braking distance concerns me...it is unacceptable.
So anyone up for a race?
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bash the naysayers all you want...it is a conspiracy against ford...but if the reviews are positive then someone must know what they are talking about!
if they are so biased how come everyone seemed to like the styling? maybe they all got that email heh...."go easy on the styling-bury the rest"
unlike us...they have actually driven the vehicle...so they have more experience with the vehicle than any of us....
will pick up this thread monday-won't change over night for sure-big football game-go blue!
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that seems to be a consensus as well....just read a review in usa today-james healy-who is pretty good judging vehicle-said the same thing.....vehicle looks great...drive's poorly
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/review...1-16-edge_x.htm
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now if it is good enough for the chinese maybe richard will change his mind!!
Ford November sales
in Ford Motor Company Discussion Forum
Posted
michael....I agree...every month! same old story.....t really does not matter right now (well it does but not much you can do about it)....they are going to be dropping share for the next year or so-they have already admitted that much...this is not their priority...they have to get so many other things in place before they can even think about stabilizing and growing their share