akirby

I just checked with my credit union. I can get 4.5/5.2/5.7 on ANY new vehicle I want. I wonder if people even check these APR offers or just assume they can't get better rates on their own.

Not really. I don't see any UAW plants in Alabama, Kentucky, or South Carolina. Those auto workers don't have the option of working at a UAW plant. They're only competing with other jobs in the same area, and their compensation is market driven. Been there, done that. No salary reduction but a salary freeze, no bonuses, 10%-15% annual layoffs. My out of pocket medical costs go up each year because the cost to the company goes up. If you were paying for your own health insurance you'd see the same thing. When this happens then you have to decide if you want to stick it out and wait for a turnaround (which happened in my case) or if you think you can do better somewhere else then you leave the company (which a lot of folks did either voluntarily or involuntarily). Welcome to the 21st century.

Do they threaten to strike every 3 years? The NHL and MLB strikes were not about individual salaries or compensation. The outrageous salaries and contracts were entered into voluntarily by the owners based on what other teams were offering the players. That's the point. Their salary (except for very young players) is market based, not set in a contract.

Right - looks like you can get the $1K Swap bonus cash plus the financing if you want it. There is no extra $1K rebate.

I only see the $1K swap bonus cash for your zip code. Where did you see the other $1K?

Ok, I'll retract my earlier rant. But the wheels ARE moving which makes it hard to be sure.

I do think executive pay is out of control. So are sports salaries. Why don't I complain about those? Because those salaries are set by the free market. If Mulally leads Ford from a $12B loss to profit in 3 years - how much is that worth? Mulally makes that kind of money for ONE SIMPLE REASON: other companies are willing to pay him a similar salary. Just look at the non-UAW U.S. vehicle assembly plants - those workers have compensation that is set by the free market. That should be your benchmark - like it or not. How can you even defend a jobs bank where GM closed a plant in California and had to keep paying some workers for 15 years for doing absolutely nothing? Don't you think that's ridiculous?

I have nothing against people making money. I have nothing against autoworkers in general. And I don't need to know anything about an auto factory to know whether you're overcompensated (that's a LOT more than just wages). All you have to do is look at other very similar industries and benchmark them. Show me another manufacturing industry that a) keeps people on the payroll at 90+% pay when there's no work for them to do. B) gives their workers above average salaries AND almost free health care AND (here's the kicker) c) threatens to strike every 3 years if they don't get MORE something or other And you still wonder why people don't like UAW autoworkers. IT architect. Let's just say it's WELL over $100K. 5+ weeks vacation, cash balance pension, 401K w/company match, stock options, flex hours, no dress code. Is that honest enough?

Are you people blind? THE FLEX IS MOVING. THE WHEELS WERE MOVING WHEN THE PICTURE WAS TAKEN. IT'S AN OPTICAL ILLUSION. YES - I'M YELLING!

They're MOVING. It's an optical illusion.

Think Continental - I'm sure a lot of folks would prefer regular fuel and good fuel economy at a lower price over AWD and more power. But I agree - please don't put them in the press fleet at all. Again - I'm just reading between the lines of some engineer comments so don't take that for gospel. But I'll be surprised if it doesn't happen.

Take X plan and divide by 1.04 - that should be really close.

I believe so as does the Navigator and MKX. As I said before, that is NOT the production material on the interior. What you see is a pre-production test mule, not a finished product. I've also heard hints that it will have keyless go and the base model will be FWD with around 280 hp with AWD optional.

Excellent points. However, you have to remember that Ford has been routinely criticized recently for announcing things way too early. I think the Flex was the exception just to get some PR out there and show people that good things are coming in the near future. Look at the Edge and MKX. Shown in January but not released until November. That's almost a year. You lose the hype. It's definitely a balancing act. I think they should show the new models in Detroit in January and start production in March or earlier while they hype is fresh. Honda just released pictures of the 08 Accord which will be on the lots within weeks if it's not already there.

What a ridiculous statement. Who determines how much a job is worth? It's worth what employers are willing to pay. If you pay too little then workers won't stay there - they'll go elsewhere. If you pay too much then you can't compete with other companies that are paying less. It's all competition - supply and demand, the free market system. When there was a glut of IT workers a few years ago guess what happened to IT salaries? They went down because there were more workers than jobs. More supply, less demand. Salaries are now back up because demand is up and companies have to compete for good workers. What do you think would happen if everyone got a 10% salary increase? Prices of everything would go up, inflation would be rampant and that 10% raise would be gone and you'd be no better off than before. Nobody said they wanted a 30% wage cut - it's a 30% cut in compensation. Help Ford figure out how to control health care costs since that's a major part of the 30% gap and you won't need wage cuts.

Are you forgetting about the new models - MKS and Lincoln-ized Flex?

You can't be serious. Tirerack.com 255/70R18 - 10 options - price range $109-$183 275/65R20 - 3 options - price range $144-$275

Revenue is meaningless. Revenue won't keep a company in business. Profits do. You know why a lot of people look down on autoworkers? Because you have above average wages (and I'm not saying the hourly wages are outrageous but they're definitely higher than the average wage for this type of work) and ridiculous health care benefits (nobody else has 0 deductibles and no copays) and a jobs bank where employees get paid for not working (definitely a UAW exclusive) and then you have the nerve to threaten to strike if you don't get more something or better something every 3 years with a new contract. I don't blame the union leaders because let's face it - if your union leaders said the current contract is just fine and we don't need to change anything then you'd ride them out of town on a rail. So the company takes the opposite position and they eventually meet in the middle. How much does this little dance cost every 3 years? I think the company should freeze wages (but no cuts), institute a modest profit sharing plan giving employees a bonus based on company profitability, cut the jobs bank or gen or whatever you call it down to 6 months and add $20 copays for healthcare and a small monthly charge for covering family members. You'd still be way ahead of every other manufacturing job in the country. Or you can keep demanding unreasonable compensation and find yourself in the unemployment line. Your choice.

That's not the point. If the quarterback leaves because another team offers him more money that's a much bigger problem than if one lineman does the same. You can replace a lineman much more easily and for a lot less money than a star quarterback. I was trying to illustrate why one job pays more than another but you guys just don't get it.

And health care cost about $2B less than it does today. That's the biggest issue along with paying people not to work.

So you want to artificially raise the wages of the lawnmower assembler for no logical reason. Can you say Socialism? Why stop there? Let's give everyone a $10/hour raise. And then let's whine about it when that causes double digit inflation. There are tons of manual labor jobs that are harder than assembling automobiles that are paid a lot less. You guys just don't understand the concept of what a job is worth. It has nothing to do with what you produce or how hard you work. It has to do with supply and demand. Take the NFL. Who works harder - a lineman or a quarterback? The lineman, obviously. But they don't get paid nearly as much as a quarterback. Why? Because lineman are a dime a dozen compared to starting quarterbacks and a great quarterback puts points on the board whereas a great lineman is just one of 5 and can't do much of anything by himself. Is a lineman on a super bowl team worth more than a lineman on a cellar dweller? Of course not. He's worth whatever some other team is willing to pay him based on his skills and capabilities. I guess I'll stop banging my head on the wall now. You guys don't get it and never will. Maybe one day you'll realize the gravy train is over and you'll have to come back to the real world like the rest of the country.

You must be joking. You get what have because you threaten to strike if you don't get your way and the companies have agreed to this legal form of extortion ONLY because they were making money hand over fist and could afford to do so. Well, now they can't afford it. It works both ways. And we're not just talking about salary - you must include benefits. So if a new plant was opened only 1% of the applicants would be qualified? If I need 300 workers I'd have to get 30,000 applications? Somehow I doubt that. Maybe for a few specific jobs but not in general. Exactly. And the same standards apply to thousands of other factory workers in non automotive plants. You act as if nobody else has to screw things together on an assembly line quickly and do it with quality. Where are they going to go that they could get the same pay and benefits for the same skill level? I don't even think salary is the big issue here - it's benefits. Unfortunately the 2 go together in something called total compensation. And cuts have to come from one or the other - or both.

I don't work in the automotive or manufacturing industry so I have no biases. This is a general business question. Why do you think a fast food place has turnover like that? Because they can. If someone quits today I can hire another one tomorrow making the same pay and have them trained within one day. It's harder to find a worker willing to do factory work with skills or experience, so it's logical that factory workers make more money than fast food cashiers. But by the same token, it's not rocket science and there's no shortage of qualified workers so you can't justify a higher than average salary for autoworkers compared to other similar factory jobs just because they're making cars instead of widgets.

Exactly, along with pensions, real estate, HR, training, R&D, some advertising, etc..

First, I make well over 6 figures so that has nothing to do with it. Second - the cost of what you make has absolutely nothing to do with the market value of the job. Do the autoworkers who assemble Navigators get paid more per hour than the workers that assemble a Focus? I don't think so (or at least I hope not). Why does a factory worker make more than a fast food cashier? a) it takes more skill so there are less qualified workers available B) not everyone who is qualified wants to do factory work Why does an IT consultant make more than a factory worker? a) it takes more skill so there are less qualified workers available Why do people who work nights and weekends or overtime make more per hour than people who work M-F 8-5 (in the same job)? a) because most people don't want to work nights or weekends or overtime See a pattern? Jobs that require more skill have less qualified candidates so employers have to pay more to get or keep good workers. If they don't pay them enough then somebody else will. There is competition among employers. The same is true for jobs that people don't want - like standing on your feet all day performing the same task over and over. I have no issue with factory workers making good money. But I do have a problem with auto workers who believe they should get paid more than any other similar factory job just because they make cars or because the product they make costs more than the product that some other factory worker makes or that their company makes a huge profit. Putting a screw in a car is no different than putting a screw in a lawnmower and assuming there's no shortage of workers for either job they should be paid the same.