The Juggernaut Keeps Rolling (Toyota)

[robertlane]

The Juggernaut Keeps Rolling: Toyota's success grows with each day. Based on the company's long history in the U.S., is it time to stop calling it an import brand?

 

http://www.businessweek.com/autos/content/...0117_924930.htm

[Bluecon]

We need a guy like Henry FordII and his buddies from WWII.

Designed the 49 Ford and broght it to production in 18 months.

Ford went from #3 to pass Chevy in that short of a time span.

Bill Ford is not the guy.

[RichardJensen]

You don't like Bill Ford.

 

Obviously because he's not making decisions you approve of.

 

But what they heck do you know?

 

...

[one2gamble]

people hate #1, as long as they remember that they will be fine

[retro-man]

We have our saying "The tall tree catches the wind." The Japanese have a similar saying that translates: "The nail that sticks up gets hammered down." Human nature. It won't be easy at the top.

[Kev-Mo]

That article gives readers a chance to reply at the end. Here is what I sent to Business Week in response to the story:

 

Toyota will never be an American company, simply because most of the money they generate goes back to Japan. For example, Nike manufactures in China, are they a Chinese company? Of course not, it would be ridiculous to imply that. Companies like Toyota assemble in America to exploit cost advantages over their competition. You are doing a disservice to American workers to imply that Toyota’s allegiance is to anyone but Japan. Articles like this lead to people putting American Flag decals on the backs of their Tacoma’s and “Support our Troops†emblems on Camry’s. In reality, since Toyota pays taxes BACK to Japan and not the US, the manufacturer of the automobile did nothing in the way of funding to support our troops. Please stop making consumers of these autos think they are doing right by America.

[NickF1011]

That article gives readers a chance to reply at the end. Here is what I sent to Business Week in response to the story:

 

Toyota will never be an American company, simply because most of the money they generate goes back to Japan. For example, Nike manufactures in China, are they a Chinese company? Of course not, it would be ridiculous to imply that. Companies like Toyota assemble in America to exploit cost advantages over their competition. You are doing a disservice to American workers to imply that Toyota’s allegiance is to anyone but Japan. Articles like this lead to people putting American Flag decals on the backs of their Tacoma’s and “Support our Troops†emblems on Camry’s. In reality, since Toyota pays taxes BACK to Japan and not the US, the manufacturer of the automobile did nothing in the way of funding to support our troops. Please stop making consumers of these autos think they are doing right by America.

 

While I'm sure Toyota's tax burden in the U.S. is far less than GM's or Ford's, I can assure it's FAR from a "free pass" for them to build here.

 

Your assertion that "most of the money they generate goes back to Japan" is also way off. Most of it goes straight into paying for wages, materials, maintenance, and R&D for new products for the U.S. market. Yes, what little is left after that goes back to Japan, but that's not a whole heck of a lot.

[HC_Earwicker]

While I'm sure Toyota's tax burden in the U.S. is far less than GM's or Ford's, I can assure it's FAR from a "free pass" for them to build here.

 

Your assertion that "most of the money they generate goes back to Japan" is also way off. Most of it goes straight into paying for wages, materials, maintenance, and R&D for new products for the U.S. market. Yes, what little is left after that goes back to Japan, but that's not a whole heck of a lot.

 

I am less concerned about "money going back to Japan" than the type of jobs Toyota is creating here. Most of these jobs are manufacturing jobs. Nothing wrong with manufacturing jobs but I do not want the US auto industry to be limited to merely assembling things. I would like a lot of the design and engineering to be done here as well - and that is where I think Toyota is not doing much. Yes they have several engineering and design centers throughout the US but the vast majority of their R&D gets done in Japan. If as much engineering is done here as manufacturing then perhaps, I can consider them an American company - but not until then.

 

- HCE

[Kev-Mo]

While I'm sure Toyota's tax burden in the U.S. is far less than GM's or Ford's, I can assure it's FAR from a "free pass" for them to build here.

 

Your assertion that "most of the money they generate goes back to Japan" is also way off. Most of it goes straight into paying for wages, materials, maintenance, and R&D for new products for the U.S. market. Yes, what little is left after that goes back to Japan, but that's not a whole heck of a lot.

 

 

This is always a spirited debate, but my research into the topic reveals some very interesting information. For example, land for Toyota’s new US plants are acquired with huge local tax breaks. Japanese banks are used for financing of US plants, Japanese steel and construction companies are preferred contractors for the projects. Once the line is up and running, most of their suppliers are whole-owned subsidiaries i.e. Bodine and TG Missouri. The only reason they are assembling here is because it is cheaper than bringing the vehicles over on a ship. Then there is corporate tax fiasco that allows them to have virtually a free ride, while benefiting from our infrastructure. I stand firm in the belief that the Japanese companies extract more money from our economy, than they put in. They can NEVER be called American in any way, shape or form.

[ricers-shaft-blueoval]

i'd rather back a camry (or an accord) that is built with the blood. sweat and toil of hardworking american workers than a fusion that is built in mexico;

 

and i don't believe that one can hold so much contempt for assembly line workers:

 

they are doing a job just like any one else; to look down one's nose on such jobs with disdain and consider them inferior to that of an engineer smacks of hypocrisy!

 

every job is intrinsically equally worthwhile as long as it is done well.

 

it is quite clear from comparing the efficiencies achieved at an american toyota or honda plant as compared to a ford plant that a toyota or honda worker is harder working and more motivated than his ford counterpart!

[retro-man]

double post

Edited January 18, 2006 by niteflight

[foxrun]

While I'm sure Toyota's tax burden in the U.S. is far less than GM's or Ford's, I can assure it's FAR from a "free pass" for them to build here.

 

Your assertion that "most of the money they generate goes back to Japan" is also way off. Most of it goes straight into paying for wages, materials, maintenance, and R&D for new products for the U.S. market. Yes, what little is left after that goes back to Japan, but that's not a whole heck of a lot.

 

Buddy your opinion is retarded. Ask any union guy how much of the expense for a car goes to wages. The benefits? I doubt yoda and hondia suffer much of an expense there. As for material those two still ship a considerable amount to N.A. from Japan and I wouldn't be surprised if it was well over 50%. But the point here is the cream (profit) and where it ends up, does anyone have to tell you that or are you going to prove my first point right yourself.

[retro-man]

This is always a spirited debate, but my research into the topic reveals some very interesting information. For example, land for Toyota’s new US plants are acquired with huge local tax breaks. Japanese banks are used for financing of US plants, Japanese steel and construction companies are preferred contractors for the projects. Once the line is up and running, most of their suppliers are whole-owned subsidiaries i.e. Bodine and TG Missouri. The only reason they are assembling here is because it is cheaper than bringing the vehicles over on a ship. Then there is corporate tax fiasco that allows them to have virtually a free ride, while benefiting from our infrastructure. I stand firm in the belief that the Japanese companies extract more money from our economy, than they put in. They can NEVER be called American in any way, shape or form.

Those sorts of tax breaks go on all over. The most obscene example in recent history was Washington State's bending over and greasing up to the tune of nearly $4B (that's a 'B') to persuade Boeing to locate 787 production (the parts that aren't out-sourced to Japan and China - maybe "final assembly" would be a more accurate description) here. link Microsoft gets huge breaks as well. Believe me, nothing like this is being done to promote and foster small businesses. On the contrary, small businesses and private parties get to take up the slack from these handouts to huge corporations. Where do the tax savings go? Straight into the wallets of their - mostly wealthy - shareholders. This is fundamentally wrong, and I'm surprised there isn't more of an uproar about it. Whatever happened to the concept of "equal protection"? Our governments working for us? Like the bumper sticker says, "If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention."

 

As for using Japanese banks to finance, Japanese steel, etc. etc., this is a natural tendency when working overseas. (Framing the issue this way, by the way, answers the question of whether Toyota is a U.S. Corporation or not. That's a separate issue from where the majority of economic benefits accrue. All the while Toyota's share of the U.S. market and production have been growing robustly, Japan itself has been in the deepest and most prolonged economic slump since the decade following the end of WWII. That slump has been exacerbated by the large-scale move of manufacturing jobs out of Japan into cheaper labor markets. The next time you're at the hardware store, pick up that Hitachi drill and see where it's made.) I have for years worked on projects in Japan, China, and elsewhere. When we do projects in those markets, we naturally tap sources and use products and procedures that are familiar to us. And naturally on the other side - amongst clients, contractors and sub-consultants in the local market, there is a tendency to do the same - to stick with products and procedures that are familiar, available, serviceable. Usually, there is not xenophobic or exclusionist conspiracy behind this - nor is there economic imperialism behind our efforts to promote what we know best - though I'm sure it can feel like it at times on both sides. But that friction always hangs over International work.

Edited January 18, 2006 by niteflight

[HC_Earwicker]

i'd rather back a camry (or an accord) that is built with the blood. sweat and toil of hardworking american workers than a fusion that is built in mexico;

 

and i don't believe that one can hold so much contempt for assembly line workers:

 

they are doing a job just like any one else; to look down one's nose on such jobs with disdain and consider them inferior to that of an engineer smacks of hypocrisy!

 

every job is intrinsically equally worthwhile as long as it is done well.

 

it is quite clear from comparing the efficiencies achieved at an american toyota or honda plant as compared to a ford plant that a toyota or honda worker is harder working and more motivated than his ford counterpart!

 

No one is holding any contempt for assembly line workers. Manufacturing jobs are important - in any country in the world, they are a major source of employment. However, let us not lose sight of the fact that engineering jobs are important as well. I want America to be inventing the technology rather than just putting it together and I would like to see Toyota et al send some engineering jobs this way as well (they have, to a certain extent, but I'd like to see more).

 

I was not putting down manufacturing jobs - I was, if anything, protesting the fact that all too many people are paying no attention to engineering jobs. America's pre-eminence in science and engineering is what made this country the wealthiest in the world and I fear we are losing that edge. Already, certain industries, such as cosumer electronics are all but gone. I don't want the automobile sector to be the same way.

 

- HCE

[one2gamble]

complaining about tax breaks are kind of stupid, they are one of the only things keeping jobs in this country.

[retro-man]

complaining about tax breaks are kind of stupid, they are one of the only things keeping jobs in this country.

We should be taxing imports according to a formula that addresses wage differentials, currency manipulation, environmental, labor, and human rights standards, to establish a level playing field. We shouldn't be taxing small businesses and others to essentially subsidize the very corporations that are shipping jobs overseas as fast as possible to "add shareholder value".

 

If we need tax breaks for Boeing (who controls over 50% of the world commercial aircraft market) and Microsoft (who controls 95% of the world operating system software market, and huge chunks of other markets as well), then our "free enterprise" system doesn't resemble the one I learned about in school: It's broken, and we'd damned well better fix it instead of defending the indefensible.

[RichardJensen]

i don't believe that one can hold so much contempt for assembly line workers:

Hey,

 

Did you know Toyota cuts line worker pay, once they turn 51? Did you know that they employ a huge number of temp and contract workers to do jobs that union labor does for good pay here?

 

It's true.

 

...

Edited January 19, 2006 by RichardJensen

[one2gamble]

We should be taxing imports according to a formula that addresses wage differentials, currency manipulation, environmental, labor, and human rights standards, to establish a level playing field.

 

I have always said this but its clear we would rather put the pain on our middle class than on their imports

[Kev-Mo]

If you don't believe me when I get into serious stuff like Tax laws and trade deficits, then how about this.

 

The good news is:

Now that Toyota is #1, Global Warming and Middle East oil dependency ends immediately! That has to be true since the problem was Ford and GM's fault.

[NickF1011]

Buddy your opinion is retarded. Ask any union guy how much of the expense for a car goes to wages. The benefits? I doubt yoda and hondia suffer much of an expense there. As for material those two still ship a considerable amount to N.A. from Japan and I wouldn't be surprised if it was well over 50%. But the point here is the cream (profit) and where it ends up, does anyone have to tell you that or are you going to prove my first point right yourself.

 

Ah. The ever popular "you're retarded" comeback from the disgruntled union guy. I never said anything about where the PROFITS go. Can you read? I just said that most of their REVENUE stays right here in the U.S. Yes, they put less into our economy than an American manufacturer, but using that protectionist excuse, we shouldn't be allowed to sell any of our products overseas either. Let's ban Microsoft from marketing Windows products all over the world. Motorola? Move your stuff back home. It's hurting foreign markets!! ExxonMobil? Walmart? You too!! Pack it up! Those foreign countries don't want you taking your money back to the U.S. anymore!

 

That door swings both ways. The price you pay for practicing capitalism.

[RichardJensen]

Actually, substantially less money from Toyota's mfg. ops stays in the country. They do not mfr. many parts here, and they do not use as many US based suppliers.

 

...

[Ovaltine]

Buddy your opinion is retarded. Ask any union guy how much of the expense for a car goes to wages. The benefits? I doubt yoda and hondia suffer much of an expense there. As for material those two still ship a considerable amount to N.A. from Japan and I wouldn't be surprised if it was well over 50%. But the point here is the cream (profit) and where it ends up, does anyone have to tell you that or are you going to prove my first point right yourself.

Foxrun:

 

Why are you so quick to disparage other people's opinons on here? Don't you realize that the same thing you're bitchin' about is what keeps the company you're supporting alive through the various down cycles in the U.S. economy?

 

Don't believe me? Then check out the limited list of Ford websites below I was able to scrounge up in 5 minutes. Ford sells (and many times manufactures) autos and trucks in almost all western (and now eastern) market countries!!

 

And trust me..... Ford ain't exporting U.S. built vehicles to all of those countries. Many Poles, Brits, Brazilians, Mexicans, etc. are toiling day in and day out building cars generating the "cream (profit)" you refer to above SO THAT IT CAN BE SENT BACK TO DEARBORN, MI.! And, they're happy to do it, because they're getting a paycheck and providing for their families.

 

BUT, when other people's "cream" comes back home to the good 'ole U.S. of A....... now that's okay with you isn't it???

 

Hypocrite.

 

 

-Ovaltine

 

Sources of Non-U.S. Ford Motor Company "Cream" (Profits)

 

Ford of Australia

http://www.ford.com.au/

 

Ford of China

http://www.ford.com.cn/

 

Ford of Canada

http://www.ford.ca/english/default_flash.asp

 

Ford of Brazil

https://www.ford.com.br/Default.asp

 

Ford of England

http://www.ford.co.uk/

 

Ford of Germany

http://www.ford.de/

 

Ford of Mexico

http://www.ford.com.mx/home.asp

 

Ford of Argentina

http://www.ford.com.ar/ford2005/home.asp

 

Ford of Italy

http://www.ford.it/

 

Ford of Russia

http://www.ford.ru/

 

Ford of Poland

http://www.ford.com.pl/

 

... the list goes on and on!

 

 

-Ovaltine

Edited January 19, 2006 by Ovaltine

[foxrun]

Foxrun:

 

Why are you so quick to disparage other people's opinons on here? Don't you realize that the same thing you're bitchin' about is what keeps the company you're supporting alive through the various down cycles in the U.S. economy?

 

Don't believe me? Then check out the limited list of Ford websites below I was able to scrounge up in 5 minutes. Ford sells (and many times manufactures) autos and trucks in almost all western (and now eastern) market countries!!

 

And trust me..... Ford ain't exporting U.S. built vehicles to all of those countries. Many Poles, Brits, Brazilians, Mexicans, etc. are toiling day in and day out building cars generating the "cream (profit)" you refer to above SO THAT IT CAN BE SENT BACK TO DEARBORN, MI.! And, they're happy to do it, because they're getting a paycheck and providing for their families.

 

BUT, when other people's "cream" comes back home to the good 'ole U.S. of A....... now that's okay with you isn't it???

 

Hypocrite.

-Ovaltine

 

Sources of Non-U.S. Ford Motor Company "Cream" (Profits)

 

Ford of Australia

http://www.ford.com.au/

 

Ford of China

http://www.ford.com.cn/

 

Ford of Canada

http://www.ford.ca/english/default_flash.asp

 

Ford of Brazil

https://www.ford.com.br/Default.asp

 

Ford of England

http://www.ford.co.uk/

 

Ford of Germany

http://www.ford.de/

 

Ford of Mexico

http://www.ford.com.mx/home.asp

 

Ford of Argentina

http://www.ford.com.ar/ford2005/home.asp

 

Ford of Italy

http://www.ford.it/

 

Ford of Russia

http://www.ford.ru/

 

Ford of Poland

http://www.ford.com.pl/

 

... the list goes on and on!

-Ovaltine

 

HMMMMMMMM Your list is incomplete, where is Ford of Japan or Ford of Korea?

And China well we all know thier policy of fair trade.

Plus I would like to know the details of the trade policies of the others, because I doubt they are as liberal as N.A.. Do you think Poland, Russia, Italy, Germany,Brazil and Argentina might have tailor made idea's of what fair trade might be especially pertaining to thier social/labor needs?

honestly if you think you can sweep this topic under by just listing off foriegn countries you really are an idiot.

 

Ah. The ever popular "you're retarded" comeback from the disgruntled union guy. I never said anything about where the PROFITS go. Can you read? I just said that most of their REVENUE stays right here in the U.S. Yes, they put less into our economy than an American manufacturer, but using that protectionist excuse, we shouldn't be allowed to sell any of our products overseas either. Let's ban Microsoft from marketing Windows products all over the world. Motorola? Move your stuff back home. It's hurting foreign markets!! ExxonMobil? Walmart? You too!! Pack it up! Those foreign countries don't want you taking your money back to the U.S. anymore!

 

That door swings both ways. The price you pay for practicing capitalism.

 

You are retarded, because all I need to say is KOREA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And just because Japan's trade policy is more complicated doesn't make it anymore friendly.

Oh ya last point, to clarify the point here, we are specifically talking about autotrade policy, you know were the real manufacturing money is.

[retro-man]

Ah. The ever popular "you're retarded" comeback from the disgruntled union guy. I never said anything about where the PROFITS go. Can you read? I just said that most of their REVENUE stays right here in the U.S. Yes, they put less into our economy than an American manufacturer, but using that protectionist excuse, we shouldn't be allowed to sell any of our products overseas either. Let's ban Microsoft from marketing Windows products all over the world. Motorola? Move your stuff back home. It's hurting foreign markets!! ExxonMobil? Walmart? You too!! Pack it up! Those foreign countries don't want you taking your money back to the U.S. anymore!

 

That door swings both ways. The price you pay for practicing capitalism.

 

The door may swing both ways, but our record trade deficit tells where the money is going.

 

Forgive me for a quick history lesson here:

 

Article 1, Section 8 of the constitution specifically delegates to Congress the "Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts (tariffs) and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States", and also "To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes".

 

Until the 16th amendment established the income tax in 1913, tariffs were the primary source of income for the federal government. They were seen both as a means of raising revenue to finance the necessary operations of government, and as a means of fostering and protecting industry within our borders.

 

For some reason, under the sway of free-trade ideology post-WWII, our congress has almost completely ceded its control over trade to the blind workings of "the market", and to supra-national bodies such as the WTO, whose members are unelected, and whose meetings are held in secret. And anyone who questions the wisdom of this ends up marginalized by the power elite. Here is a great discussion by a couple of unlikely - and marginalized - allies: link.

 

The result is there for all to see, in the form of stagnating or falling industrial wages, disruption of the social fabric through the explosion of 2-income households, latchkey, nanny, and daycare children, decreased leisure hours, increased working hours, eroding benefits, rising - no, exploding inequality of income, decreased feeling of security and confidence in the future.

 

Keep apologizing for it while the rich get richer. You're pissing away your children's future.

 

p.s. Hop over and read Captamrica's last post on the "Here cometh Geely" thread in "School of Free Thought". Heartbreaking.

Edited January 19, 2006 by niteflight

[Ovaltine]

HMMMMMMMM Your list is incomplete, where is Ford of Japan or Ford of Korea?

 

Here you go.... as I said, the list goes on and on and on.....

 

Ford of Korea

http://www.ford-korea.com/

 

Ford of Japan

http://www.ford.co.jp/

 

 

And be it however small, profit from the countries I listed previously AND the ones above go right back to Dearborn. If it did not, the local enterprises would have no purpose to exist and would be shut down.

 

The premise of my argument is that *you* deem profits generated by the labors of people in other countries acceptable AS LONG as the generated profits benefit U.S. corporations (i.e. Ford Motor Company). You never refuted that statement in your previous "red-herring" reply.

 

Inversely however, your posts make it clear that you deem it UNACCEPTABLE for foreign companies to come to the United States, produce and sell products with American labor, and send the profits back to the mother country.

 

This is your argument presented in its most simplest terms. You can bring in the whole list of unfair trade issues, etc., etc., etc. into the picture all you want. But if you think that Ford and GM don't benefit to some degree from similar benefits in the countries they produce and trade in, then instead of the "retarded" label you so like to freely label other people with, I'll use a kinder gentler word such as "naive".

 

Could this country stand to have its trade laws revised and some tariffs put on goods that are obviously being dumped here? Without a doubt......although I'm not sure what kind of chain reaction WTO malestrom would be created. But hey, I'd be willing to see what happens as an experiment!

 

But the main point is, let's try to avoid overt double standards on the boards here passing as fact. If that's possible.

 

 

-Ovaltine

 

 

Thought for Today....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contradiction

 

A hypocrite is not saying anything that contradicts the general principles that he asserts to be true; but his actions, in some sense, presuppose that those principles are false.

Edited January 19, 2006 by Ovaltine