Was the DEW98 a failure?

[old_fairmont_wagon]

Its going to take a LOT more than what Lincoln has now to surpass infiniti. People buying infinitis right now are doing so because they want a handling, performing car that has some soul in it. They would have bought a lexus, but, the lexus was slightly more expensive for what you get, and the driving experience wasn't as engaging.

 

What does Lincoln have now, or will they have in two model years, that will make them appreciably more desirable to buyers? A MkZ that's maybe going to have another MCE right at the end of that? A MkS that has an innovative (for the market) powertrain and AWD setup? A Mark LT that's based on the redone F-150 and is not much better overall than the King Ranch F-150? A Navigator that's maybe got a new engine option but likely the same looks on the inside and out? A three year old MkX that's still yet to catch up with the RX350 in both refinement and options offered? A town car that looks no different than it does today, but may have another engine in it?

 

The MkS might grow some volume for Lincoln. The other products will merely just mildly improved to keep from falling any farther behind their competition. If Lincoln wants to sell more MkZs, they need to offer it with two engines. The PIP duratec 30 as a base, fuel sipper model and the Lincoln D37. The pip D30 will be as good as many of the base models of the Euro imports. The top of the line model will have as much power as some of both the asian and euro top end models (excluding their all out sports models i.e. AMG, M series, R and S series Audis, etc.)

 

As for the reason that they got this way? PAG was too afraid of perceptions to allow Jag to be produced state-side. If they had done the smart thing, they would have taken a closed plant, revived it with a good flex setup with two low volume lines. Developed one flexible, contemporary platform with two variants. A smaller one that would have been roughly between the 3 series and 5 series in size and a larger one that was just slightly larger than the 5 series. Develop a Lincoln and a Jag off of each one. Give them distinct personalities in the shape of strongly different sheetmetal, different powertrain options, and completely different interiors. Even with all of that, there would still be a whole lot too share underneath.

 

Mercedes and BMW have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that buyers don't care at all about where the product was built. For the ones that do, they wouldn't be buying the lower or mid level models anyway, they'd be buying the top end model that was still built in Britain anyway and could still make money with the currency conversion overhead.

 

Lincoln's SUVs have always been decent enough for their market, they didn't need this for them. They needed this for their car line. If they had done that, things would be very different for both Lincoln (who would by now have established credibility with their car line) and Jag (which wouldn't have ever had to bring the X-type stateside, may have avoided it entirely, and would have a more recent entry in both the X-type and S-type market segments with far higher US sales volume and likely would be turning a profit right now.

 

But, hind-site is 20/20. Feifdoms had to be built. Political infighting had to happen. Such is life in FoMoCo. The money's gone now. Lincoln has fallen very far out of favor. Jag's limping along.

 

I wish I had gotten paid as much money as the execs from that era made to f*ck up as big as they did.

[stable1]

One problem was that the rear lower control arms on the LS were not able to handle higher HP loads. When the SC S type came out, there was a small change to the size of the control arm. As Ford and Jag never really talked about what they were usings, Ford never put this different arm in the LS. It was a small change, but It really showed that there was no communcation betwwen the too. Also on the upper arms, there was several small component changes that Jag had that was better. We produced all of the arms for DEW, and may times Jag would spend a lot of money doing test to make a change, and then Ford would spend twice the amount doing the same test. Also Aston Martin still uses the Front upper arms. At one time we were producing someting like 5 different combs of the Upper arms.

[old_fairmont_wagon]

They would have never given the LS that kind of performance that the Jag had in the first place. Why do you think that they stuck with the 3.9L after Jag moved on to the 4.2 and 4.4L Lima V8s? The 4.0L was then available and would have been a nice little improvement over the 3.9L. They didn't want the LS competing with the S-type and were terrified that it would, or so it appeared to the world.

[630land]

Well let's make it simple.

 

"First on the block" car fans bought the LS's the first couple years, but then the Caddy CTS cleaned its clock. [And ready to switch to new gen at that. LS was b-o-r-i-n-g after a year.

 

Also, Euro car fans wouldn't get anything called Lincoln, and Lincoln fans like "SysEng" will not get a "small car".

 

So, LS was fucked...

[old_fairmont_wagon]

Well, that was the whole point of the LS, it was the beginning of an effort to change Lincoln's market perception and move it a bit up market. Too bad the whole project got canned and Lincoln got the boot from the PAG.

 

Just think if Lincoln had come out with a DEW98 based sporty crossover in, say 2002. I believe very firmly that Lincoln's lot would have been completely different by now.

[wescoent]

Well let's make it simple.

 

"First on the block" car fans bought the LS's the first couple years, but then the Caddy CTS cleaned its clock. [And ready to switch to new gen at that. LS was b-o-r-i-n-g after a year.

 

Also, Euro car fans wouldn't get anything called Lincoln, and Lincoln fans like "SysEng" will not get a "small car".

 

So, LS was fucked...

 

The only advantage the CTS ever had over the LS was a more distinctive look. Every comparison between the two, the LS beat it like a red-headed stepchild.

 

Lincoln's greatest failure was 2003, when every Lincoln got an MCE, but didn't change the way the cars look at all. The LS was greatly improved in interior design, but the parts were cheapened. Ultimately, the DEW98 was a failure not in concept, but in execution, and the only fruition of Reitzle's aborted plan for Lincoln in PAG. Lincoln was never given the money it needed to keep the LS competitive with the European models in the way that Infiniti has.

 

DEW98 would have died by now anyway, since it wasn't compatible with AWD.

[NickF1011]

Considering there will be fundamentally nothing left of the DEW98 architecture in about a year and the LS's and S-Type's replacement vehicles are both clean-sheet designs, I'd say that much pretty sums up the success of the program. Decent idea, but poorly, poorly, poooooooorly executed.

[LSFan00]

Considering there will be fundamentally nothing left of the DEW98 architecture in about a year and the LS's and S-Type's replacement vehicles are both clean-sheet designs, I'd say that much pretty sums up the success of the program. Decent idea, but poorly, poorly, poooooooorly executed.

 

The first part of this is not true.

[NickF1011]

The first part of this is not true.

 

Care to elaborate on that? The only tidbits of anything DEW98 are a couple minor bits of D2C, if even that according to some people. The XF is using a reworked steel version of the aluminum XJ/XK platform which has nothing to do with DEW98 at all, and well, we all know how the LS faired.

[hbalek]

The first part of this is not true.

 

 

I was under the impression that the current XJ is based on a stretched, widened and modified aluminum version of the DEW98. Is this correct? Also, I think the upcoming XF is not an all new chassis and still based on the DEW98 S-type platform.

[NickF1011]

I was under the impression that the current XJ is based on a stretched, widened and modified aluminum version of the DEW98. Is this correct? Also, I think the upcoming XF is not an all new chassis and still based on the DEW98 S-type platform.

 

XJ chassis was all-new from the ground up from all accounts I've heard. It would have been impossible to up-engineer a steel chassis to use aluminum as the base structural components would simply be insufficient. XF is based on the XJ's aluminum chassis, only reverse-engineered to use steel.

[fastime]

There's heaps of alternatives, Ford could do:

- A RWD derivative Fusion or Taurus with North/South V6 and V8 engines,

- Import the next Falcon

- Develop a sedan off the Mustang.

 

The only one that is on the launch pad is the next Falcon, nothing else is close.

At a projected 30,000 to 50,000 units, it's still a niche market so where's the business case?

 

As an avid mustang fan for the last 7 years as well as being a mechanic , I think Ford screwed up in changing the underpinnings on the current Mustang, as well as being overweight. The Mustang is supposed to be a "muscle car" , and generally muscle car guys like to take old parts and make them new again as well as modifing them .

 

revamping an old platform makes older cars as well as new cars worth more because even the supplyer can make parts cheaper .

 

I don't know how much it costs a company to retool an entire plant but I know it isn't cheap and the longer they can use their present tooling the less it costs them ....

 

The mustang crowd is also starting to notice their rear wheel well getting smaller too. remember , the more power you make, the more rubber you need to keep you "glued to the ground".

 

They did do a good job of making the car better in the handling dept , as well as the new 3 valve heads , I think they got it bang on there.

Edited April 8, 2007 by fastime

[omix-ada]

There's heaps of alternatives, Ford could do:

- A RWD derivative Fusion or Taurus with North/South V6 and V8 engines,

- Import the next Falcon

- Develop a sedan off the Mustang.

 

The only one that is on the launch pad is the next Falcon, nothing else is close.

At a projected 30,000 to 50,000 units, it's still a niche market so where's the business case?

 

Import the Falcon? By all means yes!

But a Mustang sedan or station wagon would only cheapen the brand of one of the few remaining bright spots Ford has. We have seen plenty of concept cars and one offs of a variant Mustang over the years and the public hates them.

[NickF1011]

As an avid mustang fan for the last 7 years as well as being a mechanic , I think Ford screwed up in changing the underpinnings on the current Mustang, as well as being overweight. The Mustang is supposed to be a "muscle car" , and generally muscle car guys like to take old parts and make them new again as well as modifing them .

 

revamping an old platform makes older cars as well as new cars worth more because even the supplyer can make parts cheaper .

 

I don't know how much it costs a company to retool an entire plant but I know it isn't cheap and the longer they can use their present tooling the less it costs them ....

 

The fox chassis had run its course. Safety was subpar, as were ergonomics and chassis rigidity. It was simply time to move on. There's only so much you can keep modifying a chassis and still make it worthwhile. I'm glad they laid the old dog to rest. I do wish they had kept the dimensions a bit more in spec with the fox chassis when they decided to redesign though.

 

The mustang crowd is also starting to notice their rear wheel well getting smaller too. remember , the more power you make, the more rubber you need to keep you "glued to the ground".

 

Huh? The S197 allows the largest tire fitment of ANY Mustang built before it that I can think of. It'll fit 20"+ wheels and 315+ mm section rubber without any trouble. I'm running 295's on my SN95 with marginal clearance. 265's were the max the original Fox bodies would take.

[Meelaan]

Answer: Yes.

 

A platform that took that long to develop and cost that much to execute but made so little return and expires so quickly is by definition, a failure.

[jpd80]

DEW98 is the exact opposite of GM's Zeta - expensive and hard to adapt.

[NickF1011]

DEW98 is the exact opposite of GM's Zeta - expensive and hard to adapt.

 

With the recently announced delays of some GM RWD products that were supposed to use Zeta, it may not be as adaptable as they claim. Using the fuel economy issue may just be an excuse for a deeper problem.