lapsergio Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 Let me see...they sold Aston Martin, put up nearly every piece of property for collateral, are making some of their best vehicles in Mexico and Canada, are going to stop putting diesels in vans, which will cause ambulances to look elsewhere for a unit, this company is completely ignorant. The business decisions they keep making are not one bit sensible, therefore anything is possible. They have over $43 billion in cash, don't be surprised if they spend it all by December. LOL This company is being run into the ground or bankruptcy, whichever comes first, by dumb and dumber. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trimdingman Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 I'm under 35, so maybe that makes me a somewhat younger worker....what I see in these lump sum rumors is the chance to pay down my mortgage and other debts, and live comfortably without the worry of paying my bills, even after the pay cut...no reckless spending at all. I sure hope that there is substance to all this...a lump sum like that would be welcome here! Say if you get a lump sum of 2%, or $1600; compare that with a 2% raise, or $.60 an hour. The lump sum is just a one shot deal. The $.60 an hour is forever. If you get another lump sum the next year, it is the same as getting nothing extra. With the hourly increase, you already have it, and if you get more, it really is more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spring Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 Hmmmm, run the company into the ground, drive the price of shares down to the point they are nearly worthless, declare bankruptcy and void all labor contracts and obligations then buy back all the shares and take the company back to being private and tell Wall Street to go to hell. Sounds like Harvard Business School basics 101. It does look like that is Mulally's plan of attack, doesn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CD4EMAN Posted March 19, 2007 Author Share Posted March 19, 2007 Hmmmm, run the company into the ground, drive the price of shares down to the point they are nearly worthless, declare bankruptcy and void all labor contracts and obligations then buy back all the shares and take the company back to being private and tell Wall Street to go to hell. Sounds like Harvard Business School basics 101. It does look like that is Mulally's plan of attack, doesn't it? You are scary!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ktp1989 Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 (edited) :beerchug: :beerchug: You people are crazy to believe this shit, do you realize how much this would cost Ford? $100,000 x aprox. 50,000 hourly(after buyouts) = 5 Billion dollars.... For a contract Bonus :hysterical: My brothers, uncles, nephew heard from a high ranking UAW official..... that ford will be handing out crack pipes and rocks to all it's hourly workforce the day before the vote for the new contract......Stranger things have happened. I never thought we'd all get bonuses for losing $12,000,000,000.... Maybe we'll all get $100,000 and crack...man thats a scary thought. Let's look at the numbers. I don't see that it will ever happen, but be sure, it benefits Ford in the long run big time. Let's use your figure of 50,000 UAW workers. To make it easy, let's say that the 20% reduction is based on $30 hour which would be $6. Remeber, this is just straight time 40 hours per week. Overtime really benefits them. So that's $6 x 40 hours which is $240 per week. $240 x 52 weeks equals $12,480 per year per employee. So time that times the 50,000 employees and you are looking at $624 Million each year. So after the 8th year, Ford profits approx. $624 million per year. That's a 6 billion dollar profit in year 18 for the original $5 billion investment and continue to make $6 every 10 years after that. It would be a great deal for Ford and a great deal for any employee with less than 8 years to retire. The only setback is that your ssn is based on your last 5 years of work and you will earn less. I don't think it would ever happen, but if it does...........it benefits Ford. And we haven't even mentioned that that bonus would also guarentee no raises for the four year contract and plenty of other concessions I'm sure. More than likely, Ford could recoup the initial $5 billion dollar cost in year 5. After that it's all gravy baby. And with profit sharing gone, we might get a $500 bonus each year. Edited March 19, 2007 by Ktp1989 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ktp1989 Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 (edited) Whew, too much typing. Edited March 19, 2007 by Ktp1989 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spring Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 You are scary!! How so? By stating the obvious? The company knows they can buy the majority of the hourly workers off so who knows what's they'll try next! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CD4EMAN Posted March 19, 2007 Author Share Posted March 19, 2007 How so? By stating the obvious? The company knows they can buy the majority of the hourly workers off so who knows what's they'll try next! Exactly what i meant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSMJ Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 Everyone is missing the point here . 20% means 20% across your entire pay structure which is currently $65 an hour. So $13 an hour X 50=$ over $700 a week counting overtime. X 52=$36,400 per year X4= $145,600 Add in the cost of no raise over 4 years and it jumps a LOT, around $ 170,000. Add the next 5 years after thiss contract and the number is astounding!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Think about it they may not cut our HOURLY pay at all just BENEFITS. They will cutout the 30 and out pension for sure and make it a 401K like Goodyear Apple, Microsoft IBM have already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OK Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 I suppose this rumor came straight from the current contract negotiations. It's funny how the amount started at $20k, then $50k, now $100k. It may be at 1 million by Sept. Funny how one analyst says Ford needs to cut production costs by 20% and everyone goes into a tizzy. BTW, production costs are not hourly wages per say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSMJ Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 Everyone is missing the point here . 20% means 20% across your entire pay structure which is currently $65 an hour. So $13 an hour X 50=$ over $700 a week counting overtime. X 52=$36,400 per year X4= $145,600 Add in the cost of no raise over 4 years and it jumps a LOT, around $ 170,000. Add the next 5 years after thiss contract and the number is astounding!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Think about it they may not cut our HOURLY pay at all just BENEFITS. They will cutout the 30 and out pension for sure and make it a 401K like Goodyear Apple, Microsoft IBM have already. Changing the pension, and adding COPAYS and yearly fees for healthcare would save Ford enough to not cut our hourly rate. I heard on a business show that if GM put their retire healthcre $ in a fund (like GOODYEAR has done) they would have to put $33 BILLION in it, (right now at it's current way they have over $55 BILLION in it )and when it runs out it runs out. SAVING $ 22 BILLION from DAY 1. So if Ford pays out $5 BILLION they will save around 75% of GM's amount say around $16 Billion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snatchblock Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Hmmmm, run the company into the ground, drive the price of shares down to the point they are nearly worthless, declare bankruptcy and void all labor contracts and obligations then buy back all the shares and take the company back to being private and tell Wall Street to go to hell. Sounds like Harvard Business School basics 101. It does look like that is Mulally's plan of attack, doesn't it? Holy crap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrballsonya Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Let's look at the numbers. I don't see that it will ever happen, but be sure, it benefits Ford in the long run big time. Let's use your figure of 50,000 UAW workers. To make it easy, let's say that the 20% reduction is based on $30 hour which would be $6. Remember, this is just straight time 40 hours per week. Overtime really benefits them. So that's $6 x 40 hours which is $240 per week. $240 x 52 weeks equals $12,480 per year per employee. So time that times the 50,000 employees and you are looking at $624 Million each year. So after the 8th year, Ford profits approx. $624 million per year. That's a 6 billion dollar profit in year 18 for the original $5 billion investment and continue to make $6 every 10 years after that. It would be a great deal for Ford and a great deal for any employee with less than 8 years to retire. The only setback is that your ssn is based on your last 5 years of work and you will earn less. I don't think it would ever happen, but if it does...........it benefits Ford. And we haven't even mentioned that that bonus would also guarantee no raises for the four year contract and plenty of other concessions I'm sure. More than likely, Ford could recoup the initial $5 billion dollar cost in year 5. After that it's all gravy baby. And with profit sharing gone, we might get a $500 bonus each year. Good point Ktp1989... well said, but there are a lot of ifs and maybes in that postulation. As I recall Ford got something like 17 Billion in financing for the latest Turn around plan. I still find it very hard to believe that they would basically give away 1/3 of their Turn around money in September, no matter how much long term savings it would yield. IMO that turn around money HAS to be used for product development if Ford is to have any hope at long term viability. If Ford can make some great cars, then the business structural costs will be greatly offset by swift sales and high profit margin. Hmmmm, run the company into the ground, drive the price of shares down to the point they are nearly worthless, declare bankruptcy and void all labor contracts and obligations then buy back all the shares and take the company back to being private and tell Wall Street to go to hell. Sounds like Harvard Business School basics 101. It does look like that is Mulally's plan of attack, doesn't it? YIKES SPRING!!!! that seems way to feasible. Lets all hope that this is not the Ford family's motive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowcat Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 I don't want a pay cut but will take one to keep from paying medical out of pocket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapshot2 Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Hmmmm, run the company into the ground, drive the price of shares down to the point they are nearly worthless, declare bankruptcy and void all labor contracts and obligations then buy back all the shares and take the company back to being private and tell Wall Street to go to hell. Sounds like Harvard Business School basics 101. It does look like that is Mulally's plan of attack, doesn't it? Nice thinking Mary. The only problem is that in this scenario, the "worthless" shares would be long gone by the time Ford had a chance to repurchase them. More than likely to a company like Toyota, or another more stable auto manufacturer. They have little choice but to try and win back the investors the old fashioned way. Innovation, internal stability, and market growth. Do you see any of these ingredients in the not too distant future for Ford? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spring Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Nice thinking Mary. The only problem is that in this scenario, the "worthless" shares would be long gone by the time Ford had a chance to repurchase them. More than likely to a company like Toyota, or another more stable auto manufacturer. They have little choice but to try and win back the investors the old fashioned way. Innovation, internal stability, and market growth. Do you see any of these ingredients in the not too distant future for Ford? Slap, the common shares don't matter. The only ones that do are the "preferred" and we all know who holds those shares. Taking it back private means that Ford is not beholden to Wall Street. Once they get Wall Street out of the picture I believe that they could be stable internally. From the stability will come innovation and from that will come market growth. It's definitely going to take some time. No matter what Ford does, Wall Street will still promote the public perception of the foreign auto makers quality and "style" vs. the domestic makers. I just want people to think "outside the box" so to speak. Ford is definitely going to have to do the same in order to survive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSMJ Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Theres a SUCKER born every minute, as the old saying goes FACTS When Ford got that (LOAN) they asked for Unsecured $$$ and the banks gave them double UNSECURE $$$ that is twice as muh as Ford asked for around $7 BILLION I believe is the amount Now why would a Bank give Ford that much UNSECURED CASH that the bank cannot get back if Ford goes under??? THINK ABOUT IT Ford is not going under and if u think that I got a house in Lorain to sell you ( for you all not from Ohio houses in Lorain can't sell for anywhere near the asking price) it's almost like Cleveland Need I remind everyone in 1992 Ford lost $$7.2 BILLION and in 93 they made a profit in 94 it was $5.4 Billion 95 3.4 billion 96-99 record profits Ford will have about 40,000 people left and still sell 2.5 million vehicles/ today 70,000 people and 2.7 million cars. Do the math on that one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFA Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 I heard this rumor going around our plant,has anyone else heard this and what would you think of this proposition? 100,000 would be given and then 20% cut in wages for the full term of 07 contract. I have to say, I heard this Rumor back in January. It may not be true but it definately would convince people to drop their pay. I would have to say that the contract should be only 3 years though, no matter what the outcome. If we do take a paycut, the profit sharing ratio should go up to compensate for the loss of wages. It may be some time before they make a profit, but it would help alieviate the loss of our own money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalu Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 I have to say, I heard this Rumor back in January. It may not be true but it definately would convince people to drop their pay. I would have to say that the contract should be only 3 years though, no matter what the outcome. If we do take a paycut, the profit sharing ratio should go up to compensate for the loss of wages. It may be some time before they make a profit, but it would help alieviate the loss of our own money. Look at the seniority, 20+ years 20% loss in wages $100k hell yeh. 15 or less I wouldn't do it, maybe I would with $150k . If, and thats if they voted on it, would the high seniority jump on it? Are there more 20+ year employees than 15 or less? If so would it mean it would pass and screw the lower seniority people? Probably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSMJ Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 Look at the seniority, 20+ years 20% loss in wages $100k hell yeh. 15 or less I wouldn't do it, maybe I would with $150k . If, and thats if they voted on it, would the high seniority jump on it? Are there more 20+ year employees than 15 or less? If so would it mean it would pass and screw the lower seniority people? Probably. If u ask me I'd say if Ford does this they will take away the 30 and out therefore you'd have a choice, take the entire 100K or take 25K with the pay cut but leave your 30 and out alone. But what would be the cutoff?? Id bet it will be 20 years anything less you have no choice you have to take the 401K for retirement Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapshot2 Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 Slap, the common shares don't matter. The only ones that do are the "preferred" and we all know who holds those shares. Taking it back private means that Ford is not beholden to Wall Street. Once they get Wall Street out of the picture I believe that they could be stable internally. From the stability will come innovation and from that will come market growth. It's definitely going to take some time. No matter what Ford does, Wall Street will still promote the public perception of the foreign auto makers quality and "style" vs. the domestic makers. I just want people to think "outside the box" so to speak. Ford is definitely going to have to do the same in order to survive. Wall Street will promote this perception because it is itself fed largely by foreign funds. Granted, the majority of the company is held by the family in the form of preferred shares, but while the purchase of the plummeted shares could not force a buyout entirely, it could shake the market enough to make a repurchase by the controlling shareholders a costly one that this company can't afford right now. You don't think Billy and his siblings are going to kick in any of their own jack on this do you? They struggle to run a company, but they're smarter than that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
castro_bigdog Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 When we all walk away with just a 10% pay cut we will all be happy because it was not a 20% cut. Ford wants us to be scared and expect big concessions so we will not fight small ones. It is all a mind game. Best reply so far Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SheetMetalJoe Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 That 58 grand is now. In future contracts, Ford would stand to make out like a bandit. I don't think we will ever see 3% a years increases, but maybe performance bonuses like the last one we received. Plus, I anticipate profit sharing to be gone this contract as well. When you think long term, Ford stands to gain. Problem is, young workers see that big signing bonus and see new cars, killer sound systems, 80" LCD tv's or whatever toy they have been eyeing. Personally, I turned my buyout down since I was not ready to leave Feb.1st so I will welcome anything that may put me ahead for school. I see my mortgage getting paid off, and being released from the shackles! (then an 80" plasma LOL) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTV to SHV Transferee Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 The value of our jobs are already being reduced in pay and benefits. We gave up our 2006 pay raise to help pay for retirement healthcare (for which I still agree with). A portion of COLA is being placed into the Retiree healthcare (for which I still agree with). We have sacrificed building services jobs such as snow plowers, shit house cleaners, carpenters, in house construction only trades, painters, power house, waste treatment, oilers, pumpers and soon General Stores and cutter grinders. All schoolhouse, daycares and workout centers are gone in June of this year. So, in effect, we have taken a pay decrease in the value of our jobs already. ***** my prediction only ***** modest 3% pay gain throughout the life of the next contract, not each year. A 1 hour wage cost per employee to pay for healthcare, regardless of single or family. No increase in co-pays. A $1,000 signing bonus. A small incrase in ETAP, since 90% of the workforce doesnt use ETAP anyway. No rollover of ETAP funds from year to year. GEN, 6 months throughout the life of the agreement, then you must do volunteer work. SUB will be fully funded. All remaining employees will be GEN protected for LIFE! <---- this is a must! Again, my prediction only! BTV to SHV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpage Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 I heard this rumor going around our plant,has anyone else heard this and what would you think of this proposition? 100,000 would be given and then 20% cut in wages for the full term of 07 contract. Ain't gonna' happen...... Mulally knows the UAW is in no position to strike. We'll give up some pay and increase our health care costs without any kick back. Watch... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.