National Health Care

[Furious1Auto]

No need to insult the man, leave him be with his own right. Nature should take it's course. It's something that man will probably never truely understand and with us trying to alter it could bring consequences we don't want.

Since you share the same opinion, cap do you have children?

Edited September 30, 2007 by Furious1Auto

[Trimdingman]

Trim I do have to say this although I have ignored it trying not to insult you. Your position is quit extreme as far as refusing to to go to the doctor. Or letting nature take it's course subjecting yourself to to a potential unnecessary death, at the hand of something simple medicine could fix! Do you have children?

 

 

My kids are all grown up. My father's mother never saw a doctor and she had nine kids and lived to be 95. I would see a doctor if I believed that I could trust them. If you see them once, it is hard to get clear of them. Most ailments clear up on their own. Doctors milk them. I am 61, and healthy. Think back. When is the last time a doctor cured you of something. Over 90% of trips to the doctor are a useless waste of time, and some could be detrimental or even fatal.

 

Today, people are all hypochondriacts. That is a sickness, but curiously, you never hear about it any more. Doctors are continuously coming up with new diseases and neurosises. Why has this old one been buried? Could it be that they like hypochondriacts? I should have a run for the cure of that one.

Edited September 30, 2007 by Trimdingman

[Furious1Auto]

My kids are all grown up. My father's mother never saw a doctor and she had nine kids and lived to be 95. I would see a doctor if I believed that I could trust them. If you see them once, it is hard to get clear of them. Most ailments clear up on their own. Doctors milk them. I am 61, and healthy. Think back. When is the last time a doctor cured you of something. Over 90% of trips to the doctor are a useless waste of time, and some could be detrimental or even fatal.

If you had three young children as I do and infection started in your toe and was growing. You would rather let nature take it's course and die because you where to ignorant to go to the doctor for some penicillin. You would prefer that your children grow up fatherless?

[Trimdingman]

If you had three young children as I do and infection started in your toe and was growing. You would rather let nature take it's course and die because you where to ignorant to go to the doctor for some penicillin. You would prefer that your children grow up fatherless?

 

 

That is an extreme case. If I had gangarine, I would have to go. The odds are infinitessimally small. I would tell the doctor to cut off the toe, and then I would not see him again. Maybe I would get the butcher to do it. The kids would have a greater chance growing up fatherless if he saw the doctor too much. The high taxes we pay in Canada for health care takes a lot out of the economy. That causes more poverty and sickness.

 

There is a line of perfect balance between what we pay, and what we get for our money. Some call it "Bang for the buck." I like that term. We are now far away from that ballpark. How do we get back? We have to get rid of health insurance and social health care. The way we are going, in another three generations, everyone will be in intensive care 24/7.

Edited September 30, 2007 by Trimdingman

[Furious1Auto]

That is an extreme case. If I had gangarine, I would have to go. The odds are infinitessimally small. I would tell the doctor to cut off the toe, and then I would not see him again. Maybe I would get the butcher to do it. The kids would have a greater chance growing up fatherless if he saw the doctor too much. The high taxes we pay in Canada for health care takes a lot out of the economy. That causes more poverty and sickness.

It's not that far fetched. My father in law was always healthy and one day he accidentally set a pallet down on his toe. At firdt it was just a bruise and then a small infection started. it continued to get worse as he ignored it. When he finally went to the doctor gangarine had already set in and they took half of his foot. 3 years went by and he began having pain in his leg. Now he is midding his leg from the knee down. All this because he refused to go to the doctor initially!

[Trimdingman]

It's not that far fetched. My father in law was always healthy and one day he accidentally set a pallet down on his toe. At firdt it was just a bruise and then a small infection started. it continued to get worse as he ignored it. When he finally went to the doctor gangarine had already set in and they took half of his foot. 3 years went by and he began having pain in his leg. Now he is midding his leg from the knee down. All this because he refused to go to the doctor initially!

 

So, the doctor screwed up. He missed some of the gangarine. He should have taked more of the foot. He may have had better luck had he gotten the butcher to do it. Why didn't he want to see the doctor? Maybe he knew what a screw-up that doctor was. Did he sue?

 

How about my idea for a run to collect money to cure hypochondria? Hypochondria is a phobia in which people imagine themselves to be sick all the time. A cure for hypochondria would go a long way towards solving the health care crisis.

Edited September 30, 2007 by Trimdingman

[Furious1Auto]

So, the doctor screwed up. He missed some of the gangarine. He should have taked more of the foot. He may have had better luck had he gotten the butcher to do it. Why didn't he want to see the doctor? Maybe he knew what a screw-up that doctor was.

He is still alive because of medical care, I myself don't like going to the doctor but my son would be deaf from ear infections like my cousin is if I had not taken him. My oldest daughter would be dead from an infection in her blood. My wife would incapable of working or maintaining any quality of life due to chronic migraine headaches. Simply Medicine has saved me tragedy in my own household, so you see it is necessary. If you don't and haven't been sick then I guess you won't be able to understand. It's like trying to explain addiction to some one who has not dealt with it. I'm one of the tightest people you will ever meet with my money, but I still see the value of social medicine if it is structured correctly! My family has only benefited from medicine!

[Trimdingman]

He is still alive because of medical care, I myself don't like going to the doctor but my son would be deaf from ear infections like my cousin is if I had not taken him. My oldest daughter would be dead from an infection in her blood. My wife would incapable of working or maintaining any quality of life due to chronic migraine headaches. Simply Medicine has saved me tragedy in my own household, so you see it is necessary. If you don't and haven't been sick then I guess you won't be able to understand. It's like trying to explain addiction to some one who has not dealt with it. I'm one of the tightest people you will ever meet with my money, but I still see the value of social medicine if it is structured correctly! My family has only benefited from medicine!

 

 

How much did all of these treatments cost, and how much labor was involved in performing them? You don't know if anyone would be dead or deaf. The body produces antibodies to clean up infections. Drugs make the body lazy and produce fewer anti-bodies. Compare the pampered washed sickly rich kid with the strong healthy dirty poor kid in the ghetto. Poor people need less health care because they build up immunities early in life. I was raised relatively poor.

[K0FEI]

He is still alive because of medical care, I myself don't like going to the doctor but my son would be deaf from ear infections like my cousin is if I had not taken him. My oldest daughter would be dead from an infection in her blood. My wife would incapable of working or maintaining any quality of life due to chronic migraine headaches. Simply Medicine has saved me tragedy in my own household, so you see it is necessary. If you don't and haven't been sick then I guess you won't be able to understand. It's like trying to explain addiction to some one who has not dealt with it. I'm one of the tightest people you will ever meet with my money, but I still see the value of social medicine if it is structured correctly! My family has only benefited from medicine!

 

I think one of the things that gets overlooked in any debate about health care and its cost is the simple fact that a large portion of the cost is because there is something to buy.

 

For example, if you had a heart attach in 1968 they would have taken you to a hospital and put you on oxygen. They would not have even given you an aspirin. You would have either lived or died. They may have done an EKG, but you would not have been hooked up to any monitor. So the only cost was a bed, the nursing staff, a visit a day from a doctor and oxygen. All told pretty cheap.

 

As for ongoing treatment, you would have been given a stress test, may have been told to quite smoking, and perhaps given nitroglycerin tablets for chest pain.

 

Now, of course, the paramedics arrive with all sorts of equipment and drugs. They can do an EKG on the spot, send it to a doctor in the ER, administer drugs including a clot buster, de-fibrillate if necessary and get you to the hospital. Once there they can do angioplasty to open arteries and remove blockages. They can see what is causing the problem, and if necessary do a bypass operation. If all else fails you can even receive a new heart, or soon, a mechanical assist for your damaged one.

 

There are now drugs to help prevent plaque buildup on arteries as well as control blood pressure and diabetes. It is possible to assess how much plaque has built up and take preemptive action to prevent a heart attack. As a result, we are living longer and in better health.

 

This is just one example, but I am sure most folks can come up with lots of other examples from cancer to stroke treatment.

 

My point is a big part of the increased cost in health care is there are so many more options available and they all cost money.

 

So I don't think it is realistic to expect we can lower the per person cost of health care. As long as we continue to find new drugs, new treatments, and better technology the cost is either going to go up or people are going to be denied treatment options.

 

I just don't see a socialized health care system working very well for the simple reason that large organizations don't do anything very well, be it run the VA or hand out passports. If you make someone wait 6 months or a year to begin chemotherapy, well morphine and hospice are a lot cheaper then three years of cancer treatments.

 

In the end I think the only question will be where is treatment available and how much it costs. My bet is that we will nationalize health care and new private mega-clinics will open about 100 yards on the other side of the Mexican border. Especially if they implement the micro-management provisions on doctors contained in Mrs. Clinton's original health care plan. They may even offer their own insurance programs, much like our current HMO's.

 

I think that when all is said and done we must all take responsibility for our own health care and that of our families. We must decide how we are going to pay for it. Maybe its taking a job with good benefits but lower pay. Maybe it taking a job with fewer benefits but more money and paying for our own insurance. Maybe its having a smaller house or deferring large ticket items and putting the money into a savings account to cover medical costs. But one thing I know for sure, you are not going to get someone else to pay for your care, certainly not when it gets expensive.

 

The next 20 years could be very interesting.

 

Frank

[Trimdingman]

All of these new efficient methods should make costs go down, not up. They can now break up kidney and gall stones with lasers instead of surgery. Hospital stays are much shorter now. In Russia, they were doing operations on an assembly line. Everything is much cheaper and efficient to-day. Costs should be going down accordingly, not up. Look at the auto industry. Robots now do work once done by humans. Labor costs are way down, despite claims to the contrary. People can still afford to buy cars. They don't have to have insurance so that rich people would be buying cars for poor people. Once the socialists get control of your health care, they own you. They decide if you live or die. Control is what socialism is all about.

Edited October 1, 2007 by Trimdingman

[Furious1Auto]

All of these new efficient methods should make costs go down, not up. They can now break up kidney and gall stones with lasers instead of surgery. Hospital stays are much shorter now. In Russia, they were doing operations on an assembly line. Everything is much cheaper and efficient to-day. Costs should be going down accordingly, not up. Look at the auto industry. Robots now do work once done by humans. Labor costs are way down, despite claims to the contrary. People can still afford to buy cars. They don't have to have insurance so that rich people would be buying cars for poor people. Once the socialists get control of your health care, they own you. They decide if you live or die. Control is what socialism is all about.

You are right there is less time and effort to get the same results, but if people had to pay the money directly out of their pockets than the market for said procedures would bear less. If it weren't for insurance companies paying these big dollars than the costs would never have gotten so inflated! The fact is that it is to the point that the majority of the people who need surgery would never be able to pay the current prices out of pocket and would die without as a result. The only way to drive down the costs is by cutting out the middleman (the insurer's) and having the government forcefully negotiate lower rates, and capping the payouts on medical malpractice suits! As you can see in our current system capitalism has only allowed for medical care cost inflation! So now the question is how do we do it while avoiding the volume of people receiving care putting an undue burden on the tax payers. The answer is simple don't cover those who are capable and willfully don't contribute to the social health care's funding!

Edited October 1, 2007 by Furious1Auto

[fmccap]

You are right there is less time and effort to get the same results, but if people had to pay the money directly out of their pockets than the market for said procedures would bear less. If it weren't for insurance companies these big dollars than the costs would never have gotten so inflated! The fact is that it is to the point that the majority of the people who need surgery would never be able to pay the current prices out of pocket and would die without as a result. The only way to drive down the costs is by cutting out the middleman (the insurer's) and having the government forcefully negotiate lower rates, and capping the payouts on medical malpractice suits! As you can see in our current system capitalism has only allowed for medical care cost inflation! So now the question is how do we do it while avoiding the volume of people receiving care putting an undue burden on the tax payers. The answer is simple don't cover those who are capable and willfully don't contribute to the social health care's funding!

Why the government????? We are grown and can do that for ourselves, right????

[fmccap]

There are now drugs to help prevent plaque buildup on arteries as well as control blood pressure and diabetes. It is possible to assess how much plaque has built up and take preemptive action to prevent a heart attack. As a result, we are living longer and in better health.

You don't need drugs for this. Why should I pay for someone to get this if they don't need it????????????

 

I've changed what I eat and I feel healthier than ever at 33. Now you want me paying into a system for less for myself and more for others that don't take care of themselves?

[Furious1Auto]

Why the government????? We are grown and can do that for ourselves, right????

Has capitalism worked to control medical care cost inflation to this point?

Edited October 1, 2007 by Furious1Auto

[Furious1Auto]

You don't need drugs for this. Why should I pay for someone to get this if they don't need it????????????

 

I've changed what I eat and I feel healthier than ever at 33. Now you want me paying into a system for less for myself and more for others that don't take care of themselves?

This will still not prevent you from becoming terminally ill! And if (and I don't even wish this on my worst enemy) this were to happen it would change your entire prospective!

[Furious1Auto]

In the end I think the only question will be where is treatment available and how much it costs. My bet is that we will nationalize health care and new private mega-clinics will open about 100 yards on the other side of the Mexican border. Especially if they implement the micro-management provisions on doctors contained in Mrs. Clinton's original health care plan. They may even offer their own insurance programs, much like our current HMO's.

 

 

Frank

This is exactly why it must be limited to US citizens only!

[Trimdingman]

This is exactly why it must be limited to US citizens only!

 

 

Americans are buying cheap drugs in Canada that are being subsidized by Canadian taxpayers.

 

Insurance companies have a vested interest in keeping medical costs high so that people will be forced into buying insurance. They still reap high profits by overcharging for the premiums. They use scare tactics like telling people that they will not be able to afford to pay for an operation if they do not have insurance. In the past, when everybody just paid for their own health care, there was no problem. Greed has hijacked the whole system. I refuse to be a part of it.

Edited October 1, 2007 by Trimdingman

[CSMJ]

Against natl healthcare???

You get laidoff your kid gets sick, you have no insurance and your next employer will not cover existing illness. What then?? You loose your house,savings, car and your buyout $$. Worst case your kid gets worse. Watch Jonh Q that stuff happens everyday.

Ya keep saying the public needs no healthcare easy to say when you have Ford's insurance put yourself in Jo Shmoe's shoes you IDIOTS. And you want to file bankruptcy think again you will loose everything first thanks to Bush.

[Furious1Auto]

Against natl healthcare???

You get laidoff your kid gets sick, you have no insurance and your next employer will not cover existing illness. What then?? You loose your house,savings, car and your buyout $$. Worst case your kid gets worse. Watch Jonh Q that stuff happens everyday.

Ya keep saying the public needs no healthcare easy to say when you have Ford's insurance put yourself in Jo Shmoe's shoes you IDIOTS. And you want to file bankruptcy think again you will loose everything first thanks to Bush.

Hey now, I'm on your side on this one CSJM. I just don't want to have to pay any unnecessary tax inflation due to people who anre non-citizen or of age and capable but refuse to work! If you are of age, elderly, or disabled you should be entitled to government health care. If your just lazy and refuse to work you should get a bill and collections! There is over 48,000,000 people in this country with no medical insurance!

[CSMJ]

Hey now, I'm on your side on this one CSJM. I just don't want to have to pay any unnecessary tax inflation due to people who anre non-citizen or of age and capable but refuse to work! If you are of age, elderly, or disabled you should be entitled to government health care. If your just lazy and refuse to work you should get a bill and collections! There is over 48,000,000 people in this country with no medical insurance!

Try 100 mills when you figure in the IILEGAL'S

[Furious1Auto]

Try 100 mills when you figure in the IILEGAL'S

Yeh but' the citizen's should not be funding health care for them!

[Trimdingman]

People are flying to India for surgery because it is cheaper, even after all the expenses. Health care is organized crime.

[fmccap]

Hey now, I'm on your side on this one CSJM. I just don't want to have to pay any unnecessary tax inflation due to people who anre non-citizen or of age and capable but refuse to work! If you are of age, elderly, or disabled you should be entitled to government health care. If your just lazy and refuse to work you should get a bill and collections! There is over 48,000,000 people in this country with no medical insurance!

This is one of those words I love. What makes you entitled to anything?????

[fmccap]

This will still not prevent you from becoming terminally ill! And if (and I don't even wish this on my worst enemy) this were to happen it would change your entire prospective!

If this, if that. Let me tax you for driving then, if you were to cross me driving somewhere and you get me in a fatal car accident. Enough of that crap. How did they do it before the late 20's early 30's??????????????????????????

[fmccap]

Has capitalism worked to control medical care cost inflation to this point?

It did until the late 20's early 30's when government intervention started.