wescoent Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 As it seems every thread in this forum manages to degenerate into a Panther debate, I'll ask the Panther loyalists a future-oriented question. In July, Alan Mullally approved a plan to redesign the upcoming Orion Ford Falcon platform from Australia into a flexible global RWD platform, to build everything from a $19,000 Mustang to a $55,000 Town Car. Each vehicle family will have its own unique parts and structure for its own purpose. For example, the 2012 Crown Victoria will probably have a much stronger structure to withstand police and taxi work. Replacements for the Town Car, Grand Marquis, and Crown Victoria were also approved. I have a sneaking suspicion they will resemble this guy here: 3.5 standard, 5.0 Boss or 3.5 Twin Force optional. I expect it to be priced alongside the 300 and G8, since it will closely resemble those two, if not a foot or so longer. As someone who's ready to spring for a G8 as a daily driver, I would certainly buy an Interceptor as an alternative. So I pose the same question to the Panther loyalists. Would you buy this car, built on unibody Huntsman, with a 5.0 Boss V8 or Duratec V6, for $26,000-$40,000 retail? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danup Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 (edited) The Interceptor looks more attractive every time I see it, that greenhouse is beautiful. A Town Car built from that--that's the halo car Lincoln needs. If you can't compete with Cadillac in its desire to be as sporty as the Germans, combine top-of-the-line luxury with a big V8 and see what happens. Edited October 23, 2007 by danup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 The Interceptor looks more attractive every time I see it, that greenhouse is beautiful. A Town Car built from that--that's the halo car Lincoln needs. If you can't compete with Cadillac in its desire to be as sporty as the Germans, combine top-of-the-line luxury with a big V8 and see what happens. The short window height will probably not happen, as a TC needs roof height. Styles come and go, and that will probably be history in 4 years. That treatment might be fine on a 2-dr Continental, though. Anyway, it boils down to timing of the Panther/OZzie replacement. The point is, if the Panther received the 3.5/6-speed the OZ car is getting, it could do very nicely until the next chassis is available. The fleet sales alone would justify the cost, as fleets turned over to save 15% on monthly gasoline bills. Doing that and a new instrument panel for the remaining 3-4 years can't cost that much. The current Panther, with rack & pinion steering is a marvellous road car. Without trying, it's also lighter than some of the European full-size. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P71_CrownVic Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 As someone who's ready to spring for a G8 as a daily driver, I would certainly buy an Interceptor as an alternative. So I pose the same question to the Panther loyalists. Would you buy this car, built on unibody Huntsman, with a 5.0 Boss V8 or Duratec V6, for $26,000-$40,000 retail? NOPE! I wouldn't want to risk dying every time I saw the front. I'll stick with a G8 GT instead. I think that if Ford continues to hold 80% of the police market, they will leave the Crown Vic alone, (the proportions of the Interceptor are not practical for police work), and just call it the Ford Police interceptor. I also think that after the Panther bows out, the Taurus and Sable will be the new full size sedans with Lincoln getting their badge on a model as well. Ford had their chance to get their toe in the revival of the RWD sedan of past years. But they did not take advantage of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suv_guy_19 Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 NOPE! I wouldn't want to risk dying every time I saw the front. I'll stick with a G8 GT instead. I think that if Ford continues to hold 80% of the police market, they will leave the Crown Vic alone, (the proportions of the Interceptor are not practical for police work), and just call it the Ford Police interceptor. I also think that after the Panther bows out, the Taurus and Sable will be the new full size sedans with Lincoln getting their badge on a model as well. Ford had their chance to get their toe in the revival of the RWD sedan of past years. But they did not take advantage of it. 1. The looks are your own interpretation, but I love the car. 2. Lincoln is getting a D3 derivative and we already know what it looks like, its the MKS. 3. Ford still has a chance to develop RWD, they don't have to follow your timeline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 I remember rumors of a E platform based on the D3. There's lots of life in that D3/P2 platform. However, I am sure it's only rumor. Too bad considering the MKS as RWD would be sweet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 I remember rumors of a E platform based on the D3. There's lots of life in that D3/P2 platform. However, I am sure it's only rumor. Too bad considering the MKS as RWD would be sweet. I think the car slotted above the MKS got canned....for what, who knows... Anyways, While I would love to see a new RWD car from Lincoln, is there going to be a market for a large RWD car in another 5-10 years with the way gas prices are going to go? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 I think the car slotted above the MKS got canned....for what, who knows... Anyways, While I would love to see a new RWD car from Lincoln, is there going to be a market for a large RWD car in another 5-10 years with the way gas prices are going to go? I feel it's a matter of perspective. If you have a RWD sedan with flexible space and fuel efficency for it's size, you can find a market. I drove through the states twice in a Civic and I wish I had a Five Hundred with that tiny D30. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious1Auto Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 (edited) 1. The looks are your own interpretation, but I love the car. 2. Lincoln is getting a D3 derivative and we already know what it looks like, its the MKS. 3. Ford still has a chance to develop RWD, they don't have to follow your timeline. Me too, but I think it is more closely compared to the Charger and not the 300C! Edited October 23, 2007 by Furious1Auto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wescoent Posted October 23, 2007 Author Share Posted October 23, 2007 I think the car slotted above the MKS got canned....for what, who knows... Anyways, While I would love to see a new RWD car from Lincoln, is there going to be a market for a large RWD car in another 5-10 years with the way gas prices are going to go? Funny how the topic shifted to Lincoln. The big E-Lincoln was canned for two reasons. One, when Lincoln started road-testing the stretched chassis, it utterly failed all NVH and driving dynamic requirements for a $55,000+ vehicle in this class. Secondly, the MKS is approaching the upper limit in size for large sedans as-is. Any larger and we're bordering on ridiculous. The Town Car got a reprieve for 2008, and for the moment, the plan is to shift to almost all-fleet volume with the car, and push any remaining retail buyers into the MKS. Considering its confirmed 2012 redesign, this strategy seems remarkably similar to the one just undertaken by the Taurus. Shift an old design into fleets to keep it out of sight, out of mind, then re-launch after a few years with an all-new design, and have a semi-fresh name and brand identity. Wealthy Americans will ALWAYS buy big, stately sedans. Trying to sell a gas-hog Town Car to people in the $40,000-$50,000 range is a mistake, plain and simple. This is where the much more fuel-efficient and roomy MKS will play, as a hedge against gas prices. This is where the Twin Force comes in. Plenty of power, but great fuel economy. However, move the Town Car into the $50,000-$70,000 range, and we've got another story. A Huntsman Town Car armed with all the technological sophistication Ford can muster could really begin to capture the kind of folks buying the low-end Lexus LS460. Ford can bring out a vault-quiet Town Car with tons of interior room, a big smooth V8, and all the usual standard luxury features. They can have radar cruise control, HIDs, navigation, sun shades, and a huge glass roof optional for those who want it. The Town Car can become Ford Motor Company's test bed for new technologies, the same way the S-Class is for Daimler AG. Obviously, they won't sell nearly as many of them as they used to (25,000 or so annually), but as Ford develops cool technology, they can debut it in the Town Car and MKR, and then allow it to trickle down through other Lincolns, and then eventually to Ford, Mercury, and Mazda as they are time-tested. Am I on to something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShockFX Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 Funny how the topic shifted to Lincoln. The big E-Lincoln was canned for two reasons. One, when Lincoln started road-testing the stretched chassis, it utterly failed all NVH and driving dynamic requirements for a $55,000+ vehicle in this class. Secondly, the MKS is approaching the upper limit in size for large sedans as-is. Any larger and we're bordering on ridiculous. The Town Car got a reprieve for 2008, and for the moment, the plan is to shift to almost all-fleet volume with the car, and push any remaining retail buyers into the MKS. Considering its confirmed 2012 redesign, this strategy seems remarkably similar to the one just undertaken by the Taurus. Shift an old design into fleets to keep it out of sight, out of mind, then re-launch after a few years with an all-new design, and have a semi-fresh name and brand identity. Wealthy Americans will ALWAYS buy big, stately sedans. Trying to sell a gas-hog Town Car to people in the $40,000-$50,000 range is a mistake, plain and simple. This is where the much more fuel-efficient and roomy MKS will play, as a hedge against gas prices. This is where the Twin Force comes in. Plenty of power, but great fuel economy. However, move the Town Car into the $50,000-$70,000 range, and we've got another story. A Huntsman Town Car armed with all the technological sophistication Ford can muster could really begin to capture the kind of folks buying the low-end Lexus LS460. Ford can bring out a vault-quiet Town Car with tons of interior room, a big smooth V8, and all the usual standard luxury features. They can have radar cruise control, HIDs, navigation, sun shades, and a huge glass roof optional for those who want it. The Town Car can become Ford Motor Company's test bed for new technologies, the same way the S-Class is for Daimler AG. Obviously, they won't sell nearly as many of them as they used to (25,000 or so annually), but as Ford develops cool technology, they can debut it in the Town Car and MKR, and then allow it to trickle down through other Lincolns, and then eventually to Ford, Mercury, and Mazda as they are time-tested. Am I on to something? The fact that you are in fact on to something makes me think it can never happen. Makes too much sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 Ultimately, I think the debate over the future of the Panther and its possible replacement are sized up with just two questions: 1. Can Ford expect to sell retail RWD production Interceptors in sufficient numbers to justify building it? 2. Will the Ford fleet faithful embrace a production Interceptor more so than a modified Panther? The situation with the Panther is most unique. Its retail business is drying up. Its fleet business is holding relatively steady. What make more sense? Do you make sufficient modfiications to the Panther platform in hopes of luring a little more retail out of their old cars or do you invest big bucks into a platform that has only hopes of a modest increase in business? The Interceptor isn't going to likely be a boon for Ford. Its still a niche market and you risk your fleet business. To me, it looks like Ford should put a new Interceptor-inspired body on the old frame, install some new engine/transmission options and just attempt to address the perceived weaknesses that the car has within reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armadamaster Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 Would you buy this car, built on unibody Huntsman, with a 5.0 Boss V8 or Duratec V6, for $26,000-$40,000 retail? Um...no. Because at that point if I have to settle for the medicrity that is unibody I'd look at the Chrysler LX platform first because by then they've had ample opportunity to work the bugs out. Also by then we can get a real world feel for the long term durability. Now if they put that Interceptor body on the existing/tweaked B-O-F Panther platform and fixed that f&*king snout, absolutely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShockFX Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 The panther platform dates to 1979 or something. Why can't you people just let it die? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P71_CrownVic Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 1. The looks are your own interpretation, but I love the car. Of course you do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 I think that the Panther frame/ new body is the best solution. There is simply no sense in having to get back out there and fight for your market share in the police market. The Crown Vic is about as purposefully built of a police car as you can get. I've said it before, built the body and interior around a policeman and chances are, I'll like it. I'll probably love it if it resembles the Interceptor with a more acceptable nose like Armada Master states. You've got a tried and true platform and a hot new body. Simply bring the two together and I'll bet you probably are going to sell just as many as you would have with "new from the ground up" unibody car. You can't really compare the Panther situation to any other automobile. It's highly appreciated by one group and largely ignored by the other. What to do? I say if the fleet market is the most profitable reason for building the car in the first place, why risk messing it up? The looks are not that important to law enforcement. Its function. However, you're bound to get some people looking with something that looks good. Americans are largely superficial. Young guys still drive their 400 horsepower 2004 Fairmonts around, don't they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxman100 Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 I like the Panther because it is comfortable, simple, and cheap to own. I don't really care about a lot of technology or gadgets, be it the new "sync" system, navigation, back-up cameras, etc - heck, I never use the Homelink system, and I think the autodim mirror is stupid, and autotemp unnecessary - I override mine pretty much all the time. I do love the rear air suspension - one of my favorite features. Live rear axles to me means simple parts replacements, and never having to pay for a four wheel alignment. In short, while a new platform may be faster, etc., I don't see much of an improvement to me. The only change I'd like to see in the Panther is relocating the fuel tank so the rear seat can fold down. Even that has issues - most cars with rear folding seats are also uncomfortable rear seats, so who knows how that would turn out. New interior and exterior styling is needed as well, but I don't see a need for a new platform. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suv_guy_19 Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 Of course you do. Of course you don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 The panther platform dates to 1979 or something. Why can't you people just let it die? The television dates back to the 40 and 50s, however we're not watching the same television. The Panther, while based on a platform from the 70s, has undergone so many changes and improvements, its really hard to compare it to a '79 LTD. The Panther's current frame (rebuilt in '03) is probably about as strong as some pick up trucks. That in itself allows for a super rigid chassis and better handling than even 10 years ago. Almost everyone who has driven one from 10 years ago and compared it to a new one, usually is completely surprised at how well it handles and responds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P71_CrownVic Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 ...I'd look at the Chrysler LX platform first... The whole side profile is a carbon copy of the 300C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLPRacing Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 The whole side profile is a carbon copy of the 300C It was designed by the same guy that designed the 300... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P71_CrownVic Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 The television dates back to the 40 and 50s, however we're not watching the same television. The Panther, while based on a platform from the 70s, has undergone so many changes and improvements, its really hard to compare it to a '79 LTD. The Panther's current frame (rebuilt in '03) is probably about as strong as some pick up trucks. That in itself allows for a super rigid chassis and better handling than even 10 years ago. Almost everyone who has driven one from 10 years ago and compared it to a new one, usually is completely surprised at how well it handles and responds. You can't talk sense to these people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P71_CrownVic Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 It was designed by the same guy that designed the 300... So is this guy like the guy who designs Aston Martins and the new Jag. He can only do one design? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suv_guy_19 Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 The television dates back to the 40 and 50s, however we're not watching the same television. The Panther, while based on a platform from the 70s, has undergone so many changes and improvements, its really hard to compare it to a '79 LTD. The Panther's current frame (rebuilt in '03) is probably about as strong as some pick up trucks. That in itself allows for a super rigid chassis and better handling than even 10 years ago. Almost everyone who has driven one from 10 years ago and compared it to a new one, usually is completely surprised at how well it handles and responds. Many of us do not watch television that is in any way similar to those from the 50s. Rear projection, DLP, Plasma, LCD, SXRD, OLED, HDTV....need I go on.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suv_guy_19 Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 So is this guy like the guy who designs Aston Martins and the new Jag. He can only do one design? The designs are similar but very different. Of course you wouldn't be able to see that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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