Who took our country away from us?

[mountaineerwv]

If you want to be.

 

I prefer being my own keeper!!!

 

This may come as a shock and a surprise to you, but that is impossible. We are stronger as a society by being intertwined.

[fmccap]

This may come as a shock and a surprise to you, but that is impossible. We are stronger as a society by being intertwined.

No it's not. Are you that weak that if the government collapsed or did what they are supposed to do according to the Constitution you would not survive???

[SOULJABOY]

Too many post, not enough time to read them all. You can blame who you want to, the president, congress, senate, corporations and all of us. Bottom line everyone is to blame. I blame the union for not representing me fairly, who blames the company for writing me up unfairly, who blames me for for makeing the mistake in the first place. Where oh where does this vicious cycle end.

 

I feel we are already in a recession heading for a depression. What can we do to stop it. In all honesty not much. We just need to find a way to get out of it.

 

1. Hold our elected officials accountable.

 

2. Hold all corporations accountable.

 

3. Hold all major union officials accountable.

 

4. Work on getting oil prices and price for gas at a reasonable level.

 

5. Give up all hope and crawl in a hole and die.

 

Which of these do you think will happen. My guess is on number 5

[mountaineerwv]

No it's not. Are you that weak that if the government collapsed or did what they are supposed to do according to the Constitution you would not survive???

 

Yes, it is.

 

You are the one who wants to get rid of the government and it's institutions, not me. Unlike you, I see the good that can come from a beneficent government that looks out for its' citizens. Some regulation of corporations is necessary, just ask Theodore Roosevelt. Who else would look out after the safety of your food? Who else would look out after the safety of your work place? Who else would build the roads and bridges you travel every day? Who else would build the schools to educate our children? Who else would look out for those who fall upon hard times? Obviously not Libertarians like you and Ron Paul.

[Imawhosure]

Yes, it is.

 

You are the one who wants to get rid of the government and it's institutions, not me. Unlike you, I see the good that can come from a beneficent government that looks out for its' citizens. Some regulation of corporations is necessary, just ask Theodore Roosevelt. Who else would look out after the safety of your food? Who else would look out after the safety of your work place? Who else would build the roads and bridges you travel every day? Who else would build the schools to educate our children? Who else would look out for those who fall upon hard times? Obviously not Libertarians like you and Ron Paul.

 

To much of anything is not good. To much food, to much water, to much sun, etc.

 

Most of us have decided that we now have to much government. We don't want them to go away, just roll back their intervention some to an earlier time. Building roads, bridges, protecting us by funding the military are all things we can agree on. Some of this other nonsense has got to go.

 

All most conservatives want is LESS government, not NO government. Most liberals want MORE government, an endelss supply of government.

 

How interesting you guys bring up the regulations put in years and years ago as a yardstick for what government does today. It is almost if you are trying to convince people if conservatives have their way, all these safegaurds will disappear. That is laughable.

 

And now I challenge you----------->I read your little ditty on efficiency in the government, lololol. So take out the military who is efficient because it has to be, although their cost over runs are unbelievable. (efficiency as far as what SOLDIERS DO, not Pentagon ordering, lolol)

 

OK, now tell us all------------>of alllllllllllllllllllllllll the government agencys, (and they are never ending) local, state, and federal; show us a few agencys whos people are efficient!!!!!! Get me one that is as efficient as a Ford Worker. ONE, just one.

 

Most of these jobs are patronage jobs, and we both know it.

 

And so, any assertion you make that ANY part of the economy would be better serviced by government for a cheaper rate is not only ridiculous, it is a downright fabrication. Just the excess labor alone will run them into the ground.

 

Your logic is no logic at all, and anyone on these boards with any kind of awareness knows this to be true.

 

Just as Trim has stated (along with many others on here) about what was a supposed crisis until two weeks ago, (MAN MADE global warming, the biggest snow job since they invented the ponzi scheme) government solutions across the globe was to TAX IT!!!!!!!! Now tell us, what private firm would do that?

 

Government solutions are not driven soley by need, they are driven by the politics of the problem. This is why while government usually comes to some sort of solution, they screw up two other things in the process by fixing one.

 

I tell you one thing------------>the smartest people in THIS country are not our leaders. Was Einstein ever President? Bill Gates? No, we elect people who are only slightly smarter than we are. Why in the hell would I listen to Barrack, Hillary, George Bush, or Mcain for that matter, when they tell me they want more of my money because they have a grand idea? I am not here to support ANYONES grand ideas but my own, lolol. Yes, I am here to support our bridges, roads, military, and domestic projects. But I am not here trying to build utopia for everyone by financing LIBERAL IDEAS. If I want to spend my money on utopia, I am building utopia for me, and the way I see fit in my home.

 

If you want to give more of your money towards liberal utopia, go ahead. But you see, that is why you hate conservatives so much!!!!! To build your LIBERAL utopia, you gotta have their money. And once you do that my liberal poster, all you are doing is exactly what we say---------->transferring wealth from one person to another by YOUR guidelines. Legal theft through taxation with the intent of giving it to someone else. That is ignorant behaviour.

 

They tried that once in a country called the USSR. Funny thing happened, lolol. They had to put up a wall to keep PEOPLE IN.

[Savetheplanet]

Then why do you support more than 30 billion a year in farm subsidies?

[fmccap]

Yes, it is.

 

You are the one who wants to get rid of the government and it's institutions, not me. Unlike you, I see the good that can come from a beneficent government that looks out for its' citizens. Some regulation of corporations is necessary, just ask Theodore Roosevelt. Who else would look out after the safety of your food? Who else would look out after the safety of your work place? Who else would build the roads and bridges you travel every day? Who else would build the schools to educate our children? Who else would look out for those who fall upon hard times? Obviously not Libertarians like you and Ron Paul.

Why don't we ask our founders??????

I just gave you an example of wonderful government intervention.

The crisis has its roots in the Community Reinvestment Act of 1977, a

Carter-era law that purported to prevent "redlining" - denying mortgages to

black borrowers - by pressuring banks to make home loans in "low- and

moderate-income neighborhoods." Under the act, banks were to be graded on their

attentiveness to the "credit needs" of "predominantly minority neighborhoods."

The higher a bank's rating, the more likely that regulators would say yes when

the bank sought to open a new branch or undertake a merger or acquisition.

 

But to earn high ratings, banks were forced to make increasingly risky loans to

borrowers who wouldn't qualify for a mortgage under normal standards of

creditworthiness. The Community Reinvestment Act, made even more stringent

during the Clinton administration, trapped lenders in a Catch-22.

 

"If they comply," wrote Loyola College economist Thomas DiLorenzo, "they know

they will have to suffer from more loan defaults. If they don't comply, they

face financial penalties . . . which can cost a large corporation like Bank of

America billions of dollars."

 

Banks nationwide thus ended up making more and more subprime loans and agreeing

to dangerously lax underwriting standards - no down payment, no verification of

income, interest-only payment plans, weak credit history. If they tried to

compensate for the higher risks they were taking by charging higher interest

rates, they were accused of unfairly steering borrowers into "predatory" loans

they couldn't afford.

 

Trapped in a no-win situation entirely of the government's making, lenders

could only hope that home prices would continue to rise, staving off the

inevitable collapse. But once the housing bubble burst, there was no escape.

Mortgage lenders have been bankrupted, thousands of subprime homeowners have

been foreclosed on, and countless would-be borrowers can no longer get credit.

The financial fallout has hurt investors around the world. And all of it thanks

to the government, which was sure it understood the credit industry better than

the free market did, and confidently created the conditions that made disaster

unavoidable.

As far as "who else". You, IMA and myself, hell all of us, "WE THE PEOPLE".

[mountaineerwv]

...

If you want to give more of your money towards liberal utopia, go ahead. But you see, that is why you hate conservatives so much!!!!! To build your LIBERAL utopia, you gotta have their money. And once you do that my liberal poster, all you are doing is exactly what we say---------->transferring wealth from one person to another by YOUR guidelines. Legal theft through taxation with the intent of giving it to someone else. That is ignorant behaviour.

...

 

I do not hate conservatives, I hate their beliefs and lies and distortions.

 

Secondly, this crap about transferring wealth is also hypocritical on your part. The Bush administration and the neoCons have transferred a great deal of wealth, upwards. Why doesn't that bother you?

[ktpworker69]

The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. ~Winston Churchill

are you the quote master or what? you cant come up with anything yourself to say about conservatives except what everyone else says??

[mountaineerwv]

are you the quote master or what? you cant come up with anything yourself to say about conservatives except what everyone else says??

 

No, I am just following the pattern laid down by my conservative/libertarian friends. They like to post quotes from their heroes, so I just responded in kind.

[Trimdingman]

I do not hate conservatives, I hate their beliefs and lies and distortions.

 

Secondly, this crap about transferring wealth is also hypocritical on your part. The Bush administration and the neoCons have transferred a great deal of wealth, upwards. Why doesn't that bother you?

 

Government should not own anything. How can they transfer wealth? Money is a way for people to trade goods and services. If I make shoes, and you dig wells, maybe I need a well, but you do not need shoes, so I give you "credits" that you can use to buy something from someone else who is also in the system, in return for you digging me a well. The government has no business being involved in this. Why should someone have his money that he earned taken from him? They put people in prison because they try to prevent themselves from being robbed by the government. The only people who would complain about people being allowed to possess what they created would be the ones who are not pulling their own weight.

[Imawhosure]

I do not hate conservatives, I hate their beliefs and lies and distortions.

 

Secondly, this crap about transferring wealth is also hypocritical on your part. The Bush administration and the neoCons have transferred a great deal of wealth, upwards. Why doesn't that bother you?

 

I knew I would sucker you in sooner or later, now go get your liberal friends, lolol.

 

How is it transferring wealth??????????

 

That is EASY. Because if a company or person pays 2 million dollars in taxes on 10 million dollars in income, their tax bill is TWO MILLION DOLLARS. Follow that rithmatic their my liberal friend? (yeah, and I spelled it RITHMATIC on purpose)

 

Now, someone comes along and says we are going to cut taxes by 25% across the board. Quick, tell all of us what that person or companys tax bill should be?

 

OK, ok, in case you try using a liberal calculator, I will tell you, lolol. It should be 1.5 Million.

 

Now, we go to the LIBERAL SIDE. Suppose someone makes 25,000 a year, and because he/she/they are not making a bunch, they after doing their taxes end up paying 100 bucks. But wait, we gotta add in the 25% CUT that this nice person put in, so now they only pay 75 bucks.

 

Everything is now nice, is it not?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! The rich person/company paid a larger percentage of their income and got 25% back, the poor person paid a much lower rate, and they still got back 25% of what they did pay too!!!!

 

OH NO IT IS NOT, NOT IN LIBERAL LAND!!!!!!!!!! It's not fair, it's not right, look what the rich got back, and look at what the poor got back. It doesn't make a difference that this person went to school for 8, 9, 10, 12 years to get to this level, or that the poor person didn't even finish grammer school, oh noooooooooo. We gotta sock it to that greedy rich person, and here is how we are gonna do it-------------->

 

The rich person, why we are gonna screw him/her/them, cause they don't need all that money. We are gonna show how the rich got the bulk of the money, cause they did!!!!!!! Never mind the fact they paid so much more in, who cares, we got an agenda!!!!!!!!!

 

Now for the saintly POOR person. Why, pay taxes???????? You gotta be kidding. They are saintly and shouldn't have to pay a nickel. In fact, we are not only going to make them pay NO taxes, we are going to give them a bundle back in a return. Who cares they never paid that much in.

 

Ummmmmmmm, where we gonna get that money from anyway?????????

 

LOLOLOLOLOLOL, all it boils down to is transfer of wealth. We pay, they get. I mean, come on fellas/gals, each of us knows people who get 3, 4, 5 thousand and up in returns, and make little money. Where does that money come from?

 

So what LIBERALS are saying is this-------------->when you make to much money, you not only pay more in tax rates, but you don't get any type of tax relief, in fact they want you to pay more for everyone else!!!!!

 

NOW THEN, ALL YOU AUTOWORKERS, lololololol------------->tell us all where you think that threshold should be!!!!! At what point should you get screwed while everyone below you does not?

 

You will be surprised to find out, (won't they my liberal friends) that if your spouse works and depending upon what they do, you are close to pushing the limit. With inflation, you will be passing the threshold in the not to distant future.

 

Bet you didn't know you will soon be considered the evil, lazy, work everyone to death, IDLE rich, now did ya!!!!!!!

 

Don't believe me, check it out. In fact, if you use turbo tax, go back and see where the liberals are going to slip you the BILLY BALONEY, lolol. And that is only IF you don't get OBAMA, lolol. Who knows where it will be then, but I can assure you the threshold will LOWER!!!!!!!!

[Imawhosure]

And let me add a few more facts----------->

 

1. Do you know why the tax code is set the way it is, and everytime someone trys to change it to a simple form, politicians scream????

 

ANSWER---------->How many of you remember reading about the Boston Tea Party in school?

 

That is the real reason, and here is why------------->Because if government equalizes taxes by percentage except for the very poor, then when tax percentage rises EVERYONE will be pissed, meaning our fearless leaders would NOT be re-elected. They couldn't get the tax base they WANT because of voter retalliation.

 

So this is the way to do it; CLASS ENVY. We pick the pockets of some, be nice to others, and give back more to the rest. (buy votes) In this manner, instead of facing the populace en mass, we just screw different groups.

 

2. Did you know (are you paying attention?) that the United States of America pays the HIGHEST CORPORATE TAX RATE IN THE WORLD? (as liberals go to check it out, and to their chagrin find out that Whosure is not lieing) Now then, is there any wonder that they flee this country if for nothing else, a much lower tax rate? And you wonder WHY they are leaving?????????? You think it is taking care of the rich to give them a break?

 

Well I got a question for you----------->who is suffering more because of this HIGHEST CORPORATE TAX RATE IN THE WORLD---------->The companys who left for India, China, Korea, Mexico, etc? Or rather the workers they left behind?

 

The point is---------->class warfare is wonderful. It feels good to sock it to someone with more dough than you, doesn't it? But as usual, who ends up paying the bill? The companys that now have Chinese or Mexican workers, or the workers whos place they took!

 

That is what liberals don't tell you. They neglect to inform you of these things.

 

What you need to do is NOT vote for Republicans or Democrats, but rather pay attention and force them to do solutions based on reality, not the pollyanna diatribe they use to keep you divided.

 

We are at fault for the position we are in today as a whole. We didn't pay attention, and we brought into the LIBERAL or CONSERVATIVE arguements, instead of forcing these partys to mold their platforms on what we wanted.

 

So the next time a LIBERAL tells you about a wonderful program, ask them who is going to foot the bill. As soon as they use the word FAIR, you know it is a tactic to screw someone, and more than likely, within a few short years, the BILLY BALONEY will be slipped to you since it will be YOUR TURN.

 

And when a CONSERVATIVE tells you he will cut taxes, ask them where they are gonna cut the spending to pay for it. If they tell you we don't have to cut spending, then throw their butts out too; they are lieing through their teeth just to get elected, and either you will never see a tax cut, or you will see more expanding deficits.

 

Make them both sing the song of truth from here forward, not the song of pap. We are adults, we gotta be able to take it, cause if we aren't, we will go the way of the Roman Empire, and I don't think any of us want that.

[mountaineerwv]

I knew I would sucker you in sooner or later, now go get your liberal friends, lolol.

 

How is it transferring wealth??????????

 

...

 

 

You know you have a fascination with ----------------> Why?

 

And, you write too much. Reminds me of another poster on this forum who I called a "bloviator". You too are a "bloviator".

 

Don't believe in a wealth transfer? Then you need some education:

 

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story...wealth_transfer

http://economistsview.typepad.com/economis...an_the_gre.html

http://www.charlierose.com/shows/2007/12/2...th-paul-krugman

[mountaineerwv]

...

 

2. Did you know (are you paying attention?) that the United States of America pays the HIGHEST CORPORATE TAX RATE IN THE WORLD? (as liberals go to check it out, and to their chagrin find out that Whosure is not lieing) Now then, is there any wonder that they flee this country if for nothing else, a much lower tax rate? And you wonder WHY they are leaving?????????? You think it is taking care of the rich to give them a break?

 

...

 

---------------------------------------------------------> WRONG....WRONG....WRONG.....WRONG.

 

----------------------------------------------------------> Japan has the HIGHEST CORPORATE TAX RATE IN THE WORLD

 

I wonder how many other things you say ( bloviate about) is also incorrect?

 

See, I just pointed out another conservative lie. And it wasn't even that hard because you drew my attention by CAPTITALIZING every word. Thanks.

[Imawhosure]

You know you have a fascination with ----------------> Why?

 

And, you write too much. Reminds me of another poster on this forum who I called a "bloviator". You too are a "bloviator".

 

Don't believe in a wealth transfer? Then you need some education:

 

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story...wealth_transfer

http://economistsview.typepad.com/economis...an_the_gre.html

http://www.charlierose.com/shows/2007/12/2...th-paul-krugman

 

Sorry, I don't need links to back up my facts, all I need do is use logic to point out what is happening.

 

You on the other hand, have no sense of debate. You couldn't debate your way out of a parking ticket with a 5 year old.

 

You sir/Ma'am, have no thoughts of your own, don't know how to express them, and fear anyone who does or can.

 

You don't like my posts? Don't read them or respond. That is usually what guys like you do when you can not express a differing point of view without going to some site to find spin.

 

Have a good day, I have proven my point without someone having to follow links, so I rest my case.

[mountaineerwv]

...

2. Did you know (are you paying attention?) that the United States of America pays the HIGHEST CORPORATE TAX RATE IN THE WORLD? (as liberals go to check it out, and to their chagrin find out that Whosure is not lieing) Now then, is there any wonder that they flee this country if for nothing else, a much lower tax rate? And you wonder WHY they are leaving?????????? You think it is taking care of the rich to give them a break?

...

 

As Paul Harvey used to say: "And the rest of the story"

 

http://www.smartmoney.com/invisiblehand/in...porate-tax-rate

http://www.taxanalysts.com/www/features.ns...50?OpenDocument

 

Although the United States has the second highest statutory corporate tax, the background paper reports that U.S. corporate income tax revenue (federal and state) as a percentage of GDP paradoxically is much lower than the OECD average — 2.2 percent in the United States versus an OECD average of 3.4 percent — over the 2000-2005 period. In short, the OECD data present a conundrum — the United States has the second highest combined statutory corporate tax rate among OECD countries, yet is tied with Hungary in raising the fourth lowest amount of combined corporate income tax revenue relative to GDP in 2004.

[mountaineerwv]

Sorry, I don't need links to back up my facts, all I need do is use logic to point out what is happening.

 

...

 

As you would so eloquently say: LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

 

You do not need links? You do not need corroborating facts or data? You just know this stuff inside and out? LOLOLOLOLOL

 

You just lost this debate. Goodbye.

[Savetheplanet]

If you want to give more of your money towards liberal utopia, go ahead. But you see, that is why you hate conservatives so much!!!!! To build your LIBERAL utopia, you gotta have their money. And once you do that my liberal poster, all you are doing is exactly what we say---------->transferring wealth from one person to another by YOUR guidelines. Legal theft through taxation with the intent of giving it to someone else. That is ignorant behaviour.

 

 

Once again, why do you support the $30+ in farm subsidies?

[mountaineerwv]

...

 

Have a good day, I have proven my point without someone having to follow links, so I rest my case.

 

You prove you point, how? You bloviate and take up lots of space, but what have you proven? That you can type? That you have an opinion?

 

Agreed, you have proven that you have an opinion and that you can type.

[Savetheplanet]

Have a good day, I have proven my point without someone having to follow links, so I rest my case.

 

 

Are you high?

[mountaineerwv]

Are you high?

 

No, he is just a typical conservative. The world is as they see it and nothing will change their minds.

[Imawhosure]

From your own link LIBERAL,

 

"You may have heard: U.S. corporations face one of the highest income tax rates in the world, though the mention of "rate" is often enough excised, so that what comes through is the assertion that corporations pay too much in taxes."

 

Read what it says!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Now why do you think they are multi national? Please xplain that to the people, LIBERAL!!!!!!!!

 

Could it be they are FLEEING YOUR TAX RATE!!!!!!!!

 

You clowns chase the employers away, then blame them.

 

So, you wanna debate the issue? OK, explain to these people how I am wrong, but in the process explain to them why they leave. Are you going to tell them that they hate America? They hate being here? Exactly what are they trying to avoid by leaving?

 

You guys are so full of it, and anyone with a brain can see right through your silliness.

 

And another thing------------->why are you so intent on taxing corporations to death? Don't you know who owns these companys? WE DO!!!!!!!!!! Ford is a company, and is run by the special shares of the Ford family, but corporations are owned by regular people, retirement funds, mutual funds in 401ks. They create jobs for people, and wealth for Americans. What is wrong with you people. All for your utopia.

 

Even your own link says that American corporate tax rate is second in the world. I believe it is wrong, but ok, we will take it as gospel. Exactly how many countrys are there anyway, lololol. I was off by 1 out of how many? And you are proud that we are number two out of 100s, maybe 1000s?

 

And your rig-a-ma-roll link about the gdp, hehehehehehehehehe. We both know what that means and why. No, now I know YOU know I am right, and as usual grasping at straws.

 

Here is your logic---------> I say, John Fitzgerald Kennedy was KILT by Lee Harvey Oswald. YOU SAY------------->You are wrong, you are wrong, because he was KILLED not KILT, so it disproves everything.

 

BULLSHIT, and we both know it.

 

I hate debating liberals, they are sooooooooo stupid and single minded, if anything doesn't have a new tax or tax hike tied to it, it can't be any good.

Edited March 15, 2008 by Imawhosure

[Savetheplanet]

So Whosure, do you or don't you support farm subsidies?

[methos]

From your own link LIBERAL,

 

"You may have heard: U.S. corporations face one of the highest income tax rates in the world, though the mention of "rate" is often enough excised, so that what comes through is the assertion that corporations pay too much in taxes."

 

Read what it says!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Now why do you think they are multi national? Please xplain that to the people, LIBERAL!!!!!!!!

 

Could it be they are FLEEING YOUR TAX RATE!!!!!!!!

 

You clowns chase the employers away, then blame them.

 

So, you wanna debate the issue? OK, explain to these people how I am wrong, but in the process explain to them why they leave. Are you going to tell them that they hate America? They hate being here? Exactly what are they trying to avoid by leaving?

 

You guys are so full of it, and anyone with a brain can see right through your silliness.

 

And another thing------------->why are you so intent on taxing corporations to death? Don't you know who owns these companys? WE DO!!!!!!!!!! Ford is a company, and is run by the special shares of the Ford family, but corporations are owned by regular people, retirement funds, mutual funds in 401ks. They create jobs for people, and wealth for Americans. What is wrong with you people. All for your utopia.

 

Even your own link says that American corporate tax rate is second in the world. I believe it is wrong, but ok, we will take it as gospel. Exactly how many countrys are there anyway, lololol. I was off by 1 out of how many? And you are proud that we are number two out of 100s, maybe 1000s?

 

And your rig-a-ma-roll link about the gdp, hehehehehehehehehe. We both know what that means and why. No, now I know YOU know I am right, and as usual grasping at straws.

 

Here is your logic---------> I say, John Fitzgerald Kennedy was KILT by Lee Harvey Oswald. YOU SAY------------->You are wrong, you are wrong, because he was KILLED not KILT, so it disproves everything.

 

BULLSHIT, and we both know it.

 

I hate debating liberals, they are sooooooooo stupid and single minded, if anything doesn't have a new tax or tax hike tied to it, it can't be any good.

 

Blame whoever you like, but the facts are this, out of a three trillion dollar budget, almost half of it goes toward defense and debt relief. For some strange reason conservatives think our budget problems stem from liberal policies such as welfare, not so. It's less than one percent of the budget. It's about the only thing Congress has been cutting. You want less taxes? Great so do I, but for gawds sake, stop making war, and start making sense.

 

You and everyone else's tax rate has been substantially less than it should have been. Up to now, the Asians, and Arabs have financed the Bush administrations insane fiscal policies. It's not the liberals that are killing this country, it's the conservatives. At least when the liberals did spend, it was on the citizenry as a whole, not the wealthy two percent.

 

In addition, they had the courage to tax as they spent. Not so with conservatives, sure they cut taxes, but they spent more than ANY liberal administration ever did, all the while racking up massive debts. We'll pay almost half a trillion next year alone, on interest towards the debt. Where did the vast majority of that nearly 10 trillion dollar debt originate; under conservative administrations. In particular, supply side tax cuts, or trickle-down economics. Like I said, that warm fuzzy feeling you have on your backside isn't money my friend, lol.