Big Al thinkking of selling Volvo

[buyacargetachec]

Lots of wishful thinking here about Ford being a global luxury player.

 

Volvo is not the answer. It has never was and never will be a luxury car in the same vein as the Germans. And it lost its "safety" advantage long ago. It's a money loser with a small future: sell it back to the Swedes!

 

Lincoln will never become a global luxury competitor either. It seems to me that true luxury cars that are precisely engineered and offer snob appeal are, in a sense, un-American from a cultural standpoint. "Luxury" and the American mythology of the hard-working, "regular man," classless society that Henry Ford exploited are fundamentally at odds with each other. Ford in its bones does not know how to make and sustain a German-style luxury car/brand. No, Lincoln will be what Acura is to Honda: a nicer Ford for Americans who want a little something more than a Ford but who don't want to seem snobbish. It's a good place for Lincoln that Ford can profit from.

 

Mercury is toast. It made sense when Detroit was the only game in town. But now it just seems like the brand that goes through the motions constantly looking for a raison d'etre.

[akirby]

Correct me if I am wrong but I think Advance Trac was 1st offered in MY2000 Lincoln LS

 

Correct! Along with moisture sensing wipers, selectshift automanual tranny and an anti-squat/dive suspension. None of which ever made it to other cars (until the MKS in a couple of months). What a waste of engineering.

[Michael Reynolds]

Volvo S40 was always offered with DSA (Dynamic Stability Assistance), and I remember for the USA MY2000 S40 this feature was a $500.00 option.

 

Volvo Cars traction & stability features were first offered in 1995 DSA - Dynamic Stability Assistance, 1998 STC - Stability and Traction Control, 1998 DSTC – Dynamic Stability and Traction Control

 

Correct me if I am wrong but I think Advance Trac was 1st offered in MY2000 Lincoln LS

 

Correct Volvo did offer Dynamic Stability Assistance (DSA) when the S40 was introduced, but it is a traction control system not stability control.

[NickF1011]

Lots of wishful thinking here about Ford being a global luxury player.

 

Volvo is not the answer. It has never was and never will be a luxury car in the same vein as the Germans. And it lost its "safety" advantage long ago. It's a money loser with a small future: sell it back to the Swedes!

 

Lincoln will never become a global luxury competitor either. It seems to me that true luxury cars that are precisely engineered and offer snob appeal are, in a sense, un-American from a cultural standpoint. "Luxury" and the American mythology of the hard-working, "regular man," classless society that Henry Ford exploited are fundamentally at odds with each other. Ford in its bones does not know how to make and sustain a German-style luxury car/brand. No, Lincoln will be what Acura is to Honda: a nicer Ford for Americans who want a little something more than a Ford but who don't want to seem snobbish. It's a good place for Lincoln that Ford can profit from.

 

Mercury is toast. It made sense when Detroit was the only game in town. But now it just seems like the brand that goes through the motions constantly looking for a raison d'etre.

 

Apparently the Germans aren't exactly having luck sustaining German-style luxury car brands right now either:

 

BMW Reports $372M Q1 Loss

 

Lincoln is a general unknown in a lot of overseas markets. In that sense, it is probably in a better position than some other brands to push itself as a luxury marque overseas. Markets like China, India, South Africa, Brazil, the Middle East, etc would probably eat up Lincolns as fast as we could send them there.

Edited April 24, 2008 by NickF1011

[battyr]

Well I guess arguments with regard to Volvo do make sense, although it seems fairly integrated as well. I mean if you look at it everything except the S60, Volvo pretty much shares a platform with a Ford somewhere.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the RX-8 and MX-7 don't share platforms do they?

 

Please consider:

 

Mazda is not Ford. They are an independant company partially owned by Ford. If they lose money, Ford does not have to bail them out. There are other share holders that share the pain. Volvo is 100% owned by Ford. They are financially liable 100% to Ford.

 

There is nothing wrong with unique platforms if justified. They F-150, Superduty and E-series is unique to North America. Those trucks, do share parts amoung themselves and other large cars. The RX-8 and MX-5 are unique platforms, but they will share a lot of components with other Mazda and Ford cars. Mazdas CX-7 is also unique but most of the components including body structure come from either the Edge or the S-Max. This sharing of parts to make a unique vehicle is something Mazda is very good at. It is very important because Mazda needs to get sale from markets that Ford is not already in.

[Edstock]

Just my stupid opinion, but I think the MKX could sell surprisingly well in Europe.

 

Its engine is the right size, put a handling package into it and sell it fully-loaded. With the US dollar where it is, all the Audi/MB/BMW crossovers might find a challenge. Were I in charge of marketing, I would test in Switzerland.

[P71_CrownVic]

Not for 2009.

Yep...same old, same old...

 

"Just wait...they will have it"

 

Good to see where Ford's priorities are. Randomly placed LED and talking to your radio rather than standard ABS, grab handles and rear head rests.

[Michael Reynolds]

Please consider:

 

Mazda is not Ford. They are an independant company partially owned by Ford. If they lose money, Ford does not have to bail them out. There are other share holders that share the pain. Volvo is 100% owned by Ford. They are financially liable 100% to Ford.

 

There is nothing wrong with unique platforms if justified. They F-150, Superduty and E-series is unique to North America. Those trucks, do share parts amoung themselves and other large cars. The RX-8 and MX-5 are unique platforms, but they will share a lot of components with other Mazda and Ford cars. Mazdas CX-7 is also unique but most of the components including body structure come from either the Edge or the S-Max. This sharing of parts to make a unique vehicle is something Mazda is very good at. It is very important because Mazda needs to get sale from markets that Ford is not already in.

 

Well there is no doubt about anything that you've mentioned, and I agree on the basis of your argument as a whole. Let me dissect it a little ...

 

Up until this decade Mazda was really a lost soul. The company made cars that were fairly sporty, but never lived up to the Japanese = stellar quality stigma. Mazda as a whole strikes me as a Ford of Japan (selling cars stateside of course). Both companies offer similar entries in similar segments (if not clones), and functions much better than say Mercury.

 

Then you have Volvo. Volvo has a reputation not only for building safe cars, but a brand that can easily be perceived in most cases as luxury. While that should not make a huge difference when it comes to what underpins these vehicles, you still run into a lot of cost associated with technology and design. Some of which Ford has been very lax'd about, especially when it comes to Lincoln. Lincoln has gone from offering things that most German cars didn't come equipped with (xenons in the Mark) to essentially offering nothing but air-cooled seats and halogen headlamps that swivel. Maybe if resources were better leveraged between Lincoln and Volvo (as they fight it out in similar price brackets), we would begin to notice the harmony that Mazda currently has with the rest of Ford Motor.

 

I really don't see this as a Volvo issue as a whole, but more of a mismanagement issue. Whereas American culture and Swedish culture continue to butt heads.

[Michael Reynolds]

Yep...same old, same old...

 

"Just wait...they will have it"

 

Good to see where Ford's priorities are. Randomly placed LED and talking to your radio rather than standard ABS, grab handles and rear head rests.

 

So what's your argument going to be next year? And why do you keep going on about grab handles, what the hell does that have to do with safety equipment?

[Ford Jellymoulds]

Just my stupid opinion, but I think the MKX could sell surprisingly well in Europe.

 

Its engine is the right size, put a handling package into it and sell it fully-loaded. With the US dollar where it is, all the Audi/MB/BMW crossovers might find a challenge. Were I in charge of marketing, I would test in Switzerland.

 

I agree Ed, It would be nice if Ford developed Lincoln into another Lexus. If Lexus can sell in Europe at the moment why can't Ford do the same thing with Lincoln and make it a global car. Lexus is sold through Toyota dealers in the UK why can't Ford do the same and sell Lincoln and sell it through Ford dealerships in the UK?

Edited April 24, 2008 by Ford Jellymoulds

[Cougarpower]

Volvo hasn't done much of anything recently except lose money and market share in the US.

 

Why on earth would you ditch Lincoln over Volvo? I think Lincoln would have a much better chance of penetrating emerging markets than the smallish Volvo -- sort of like the Buick expansion model. Let's not even get started on comparing Lincoln's size in North America compared to Volvo.

 

Volvo just appears to be getting stodgy again. Their designs are becoming dated and they are really no longer bringing anything to the table. No increased sales. No major technology innovations that Ford couldn't now handle on its own. No reputation for anything but safety. Moving forward, it's unlikely that Ford will even continue using Volvo-engineered vehicle platforms. If the D3's survive into their next generation, they'll probably switch to some variant of EUCD. Heck, even Volvo is using Ford's platforms now.

 

The smallish Volvo sells about 3 times what Lincoln sells stateside but globally, the problem with Volvo is that since the Kronoa its strong against the dollar any profit that volvo was making globally bringing it here to the states and keep the price competitive is hurting them or why do you think BMW lossed this quarter 300 million + and a lot of manufacturers are planning on building here in the states . IMO what Ford should do is since the 2010 focus is going to the C1 and the 2012 fusion is merging on EUCD 2 they could use one line in the US plants to build some volvos here and even export them to South America and bring the R line back with more power and not as a dressup kit

Edited April 24, 2008 by Cougarpower

[Edstock]

Put a handling package on the MKZ, load it with all the toys, and sell it, too. Again, start in Switzerland. How big a deal can it be to lay in a supply of service parts?

 

Then, before you know it, some gonzo German will offer a tuner version.

[Michael Reynolds]

Put a handling package on the MKZ, load it with all the toys, and sell it, too.

 

That's what I've been saying for the past few years now.

[papilgee4evaeva]

So what's your argument going to be next year? And why do you keep going on about grab handles, what the hell does that have to do with safety equipment?

 

Well, he does drive an octogenarian's car... so he has octogenarian arguments.

[RichardJensen]

Well that kind of makes the point do you not think. How long from little to no integration to full integration with Mazda?. Ford has owned Volvo for almost 10 years now. Ford needs to fully integrate Volvo as happend with Mazda or it needs to go.

Volvo is already pretty fully integrated.

 

Question is, will they accept having final PD authority rest in Dearborn. Despite the platform sharing, until now it has not. If Volvo gets on board with Ford's global manufacturing methods and their global purchasing sources and their global product development teams, then they have nothing to lose, really. If, however, they play the, "we're better than this, we have our own way, blah blah blah", and, basically, make it difficult for Ford, they're headed for the door.

 

From Mulally and the board needs to come this assurance: We will not sell Volvo unless the survival of the company is at stake. Ford management needs to commit to Volvo.

 

In turn, Volvo management needs to commit to doing things the Ford way (and in terms of quality, believe me, that will do them no end of good).

[RichardJensen]

It seems to me that true luxury cars that are precisely engineered and offer snob appeal are, in a sense, un-American from a cultural standpoint. "Luxury" and the American mythology of the hard-working, "regular man," classless society that Henry Ford exploited are fundamentally at odds with each other. Ford in its bones does not know how to make and sustain a German-style luxury car/brand. No, Lincoln will be what Acura is to Honda: a nicer Ford for Americans who want a little something more than a Ford but who don't want to seem snobbish.

Hey. The 'classless society' was Marx's idea. It is not really American either.

 

IMO, you are confusing luxury, expense, and snob appeal.

 

You can throw down $100 large on a BMW 760iL and still feel every single expansion joint on the road because the dang thing has Mac Struts up front and very hard tires (can't get rid of bumps with a Mac Strut--all you can do is dampen 'em).

 

Is that luxury? Not to me.

 

I don't think 'luxury' is a quintessentially un-American attribute either. Certainly, the days of American marques commanding the reputation that Dusenberg, Pierce Arrow, and even Packard had are most likely over, however, that does not mean that the market for truly luxurious vehicles has gone away. Rather, I would argue, it has been thoroughly neglected as companies have climbed aboard the Bimmer Bandwagon, slavishly imitating all aspects of the company and--basically--fighting over second place behind BMW in the comparison tests rigged by the auto rags.

Edited April 24, 2008 by RichardJensen

[Ford Jellymoulds]

Put a handling package on the MKZ, load it with all the toys, and sell it, too. Again, start in Switzerland. How big a deal can it be to lay in a supply of service parts?

 

Then, before you know it, some gonzo German will offer a tuner version.

 

This is why commonality of parts that Mulally keeps on about is so important, it should start with the new Fiesta. It would great if you could walk in to your local Ford dealers and say l want an Oil Filter, Fuel Filter, Starter Motor etc and just one type that fits all cars anywhere in the world just like a Boeing, l am pretty sure that you would find that a 747/757/767/777 would have the same air driven starter motor fitted so why cant Ford go down this route it would save Ford a fortune and help Lincoln set up anywhere in the world, and if there was a shortage of certain part in the UK due to say a fire at a plant, you could have the same parts shipped in from another region.

 

Dealers would not need a massive stock holdings of service parts, and you would only need to stamp or paint on a Lincoln logo it they could be produced by the same supplier of Ford service parts in the UK. It make sense to unify as much as posibble, if could upsize Fiesta service parts and downsized SUV parts there might be some middle ground. I know that a lot of parts just can't be done the same diesel/gasoline but it would be great if you walked into Ford dealer and just ask Ford oil filter or Ford Stater Motor that fits all anywhere in the world.

[TStag]

Right I think Ford should sell Volvo. Not because it would be good for Ford but because I like Volvo's and some people's comments on here really worry me. I would be very wary of integrating Volvo any further into Ford. They need managerial independance. Their stylists must be allowed a fair degree of autonomy or ultimately Volvo will just become Ford's version of Mercury in Europe.

 

I also don't think they will struggle to find a buyer. Renault Nissan might fancy them as Renault tried to buy them once already. Then there is Volvo Trucks and why not add VW to the list. Maybe they could add it to their collection....

[danup]

I like Mercury, but yeah, I can't think of anyplace it can go right now; any niche you can put it in is either too low-volume to bother, which is bad, or self-limiting for Ford, which is worse. Hybrid only? Well, Ford should have hybrids. Small cars? Well, Ford should have small cars. European cars? Well, Ford should globalize their platforms. Et cetera. As it stands now Ford can't afford to artificially keep the interiors on their volume cars a cut-and-a-half below Lincoln's. The only thing that would make sense is, well, to turn Merc into Volvo--a low-volume maker of boutique-y people-movers and effeminate luxo-cruisers. But a really nice full-size minivan, a Mercury S-Max, and the Sable/Sable-X do not a viable brand make.

[battyr]

Right I think Ford should sell Volvo. Not because it would be good for Ford but because I like Volvo's and some people's comments on here really worry me. I would be very wary of integrating Volvo any further into Ford. They need managerial independance. Their stylists must be allowed a fair degree of autonomy or ultimately Volvo will just become Ford's version of Mercury in Europe.

 

I also don't think they will struggle to find a buyer. Renault Nissan might fancy them as Renault tried to buy them once already. Then there is Volvo Trucks and why not add VW to the list. Maybe they could add it to their collection....

 

So if Ford sold Volvo to Renauld or BMW, how do think they are going to manage them? If the pay a good price for them, they will want to make a big profit fast. They will want to switch to their own platforms as fast a possible. They would have to take total control over them to achieve any real change fast. Don't you think they would destroy them.

 

When you look at Mazda, There is a big difference between a Focus and a Mazda 3, or between a CX-7 and an Edge. Mazda is free to create a Miata, Mazda 5, and RX-8 as long as they can make good money doing so. If you use Mazda as an example, I think Ford could give them lots of independance. The problem is not independance, it is attitude.

 

Remember, Volvo Trucks sold Volvo because they did not think Volvo cars could survive selling at low volume as an independant company. Ford greatly increased sales. I think they nearly doubled sales. With posible sales in the US and emerging markets, they could double them again, but they will have to make a small change to their target market. Instead of a swedish car maker, they will have to become a world car maker.

[salsakingcpa]

RichardJensen, Edstock, everyone on this board:

 

RJ didn't I tell you mark my words; I said Volvo will be sold. I got flamed so bad for saying so from suckers like edstock, richardjensen, p71, and etc etc.

[RichardJensen]

You got flamed for suggesting a sale was imminent. You deserved it.

[RichardJensen]

You also got flamed for linking to articles from last summer, and well............. QED

[Edstock]

I said Volvo will be sold.

In your dreams.

 

Ford might want to sell Volvo. But, they don't need to sell it, and who's going to belly-up to the counter to buy Volvo at more than fire-sale money in a recession that will last another 24 months, and maybe longer? Nissan/Renault? No, they're fixated on a Chrysler tie-up, and the Nissan management is still getting it together in Nashville with a lot of new people. VW? They're being taken over by Porsche on a leveraged buy of shares, so that isn't too likely, as European banks are a little scared these days.

 

Then, there's the matter of Swedish government approval, and this isn't Jaguar and England, ask Jellymoulds. The Swedish government won't let just any Russian robber-baron buy it.

 

Yes, it could happen, but IMHO it'll be a long time, like 5 years. Meanwhile, outside the US, Volvo does quite well.

[jpd80]

PSA (Peugeot Citroen) may be interested in Volvo down the track. Maybe Ford and PSA could expand

the diesel alliance to include hybrid technology and offer a stake in Volvo....

 

Just a thought, not saying it will happen.

Edited April 25, 2008 by jpd80