Daryll40 Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 I saw a loaded $41,000 Flex at a local (Pittsburgh) dealer. I can't see how they'll sell. Folks like me with Explorers (Mountaineer, actually) are getting bupkis in the resale market for these hogs...so how will we move into Flex at that price. I predict they flop. They're basically Explorer replacements that get 3MPG better. Unless gas goes back to $2.50 (and even then, folks might be spooked that it won't last), it's over for this type of vehicle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLPRacing Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 I saw a loaded $41,000 Flex at a local (Pittsburgh) dealer. I can't see how they'll sell. Folks like me with Explorers (Mountaineer, actually) are getting bupkis in the resale market for these hogs...so how will we move into Flex at that price. I predict they flop. They're basically Explorer replacements that get 3MPG better. Unless gas goes back to $2.50 (and even then, folks might be spooked that it won't last), it's over for this type of vehicle. Not all of them are $41,000. If you priced one with out all the goodies (NAV, Vista Roof, big wheels, etc.) the prices are more in the mid to low 30's. I don't really get the gripe about the price on these things. They are in line with their competition (price out an Odyssey or Siena and you'll see what I mean). Eventually people will pay off their SUV's that they are currently upside down on and sell or trade them in and if they want another large 6 to 7 passenger vehicle that gets mid 20 mpg, then they will buy vehicles like the Flex, Traverse, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 Not all of them are $41,000. If you priced one with out all the goodies (NAV, Vista Roof, big wheels, etc.) the prices are more in the mid to low 30's. I don't really get the gripe about the price on these things. They are in line with their competition (price out an Odyssey or Siena and you'll see what I mean). Eventually people will pay off their SUV's that they are currently upside down on and sell or trade them in and if they want another large 6 to 7 passenger vehicle that gets mid 20 mpg, then they will buy vehicles like the Flex, Traverse, etc. Exactly. It's not like people who previously owned Explorers will get sticker shock from these things, as Explorers routinely eclipsed the $40K mark also. However, most Explorers, just as most Flexes, will be those that are priced closer to the $30K mark, and those owners won't be taking as significant a hit on resale anyway. Daryll, you failed to make your point on this subject in the main FoMoCo discussion forum. I don't think you're going to be changing any minds here either. People will still need larger people movers, and for those people, the Flex is a somewhat fuel efficient and affordable, YES, AFFORDABLE, vehicle compared to much of its competition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daryll40 Posted July 22, 2008 Author Share Posted July 22, 2008 Exactly. It's not like people who previously owned Explorers will get sticker shock from these things, as Explorers routinely eclipsed the $40K mark also. However, most Explorers, just as most Flexes, will be those that are priced closer to the $30K mark, and those owners won't be taking as significant a hit on resale anyway. Daryll, you failed to make your point on this subject in the main FoMoCo discussion forum. I don't think you're going to be changing any minds here either. People will still need larger people movers, and for those people, the Flex is a somewhat fuel efficient and affordable, YES, AFFORDABLE, vehicle compared to much of its competition. I failed? I don't think so. The jury is still out. I do agree that people who NEED 7 passenger vehicles may be attracted to Flex. But "need" diminishes greatly at $4/per. Most Explorer drivers, including myself can and will get by with much less since we now have to. My point is that while Flex might indeed be great in it's category, the category itself is nearly dead and not likely to resuscitate any time soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 I failed? I don't think so. The jury is still out. I do agree that people who NEED 7 passenger vehicles may be attracted to Flex. But "need" diminishes greatly at $4/per. Most Explorer drivers, including myself can and will get by with much less since we now have to. My point is that while Flex might indeed be great in it's category, the category itself is nearly dead and not likely to resuscitate any time soon. NEED does not diminish based on price of anything. Want diminishes based on price of gas, price of the vehicle etc. If you NEED it, you NEED it, no matter what the price is! For example. I NEED food to live. It doesn't matter if it is a buck or a hundred bucks, I need it to survive. Now, a steak is a different story. I WANT a steak, but I WANT it more when it is a buck than I do when it is a hundred bucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daryll40 Posted July 22, 2008 Author Share Posted July 22, 2008 NEED does not diminish based on price of anything. Want diminishes based on price of gas, price of the vehicle etc. If you NEED it, you NEED it, no matter what the price is! For example. I NEED food to live. It doesn't matter if it is a buck or a hundred bucks, I need it to survive. Now, a steak is a different story. I WANT a steak, but I WANT it more when it is a buck than I do when it is a hundred bucks. Yeah yeah yeah. YOU understand my point. When gas was $1.50 as it was when we bot our Mountaineer, we NEEDED. Now we DON'T NEED it. Ditto for a zillion other former Explorer buyers now shopping Toy/Hon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggs32 Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 Yeah yeah yeah. YOU understand my point. When gas was $1.50 as it was when we bot our Mountaineer, we NEEDED. Now we DON'T NEED it. Ditto for a zillion other former Explorer buyers now shopping Toy/Hon. Hi all. I'm new to this board and this is my first post. I am however an avid Ford fan so hopefully I can contribute somewhat to, and learn something from, these discussions. :beerchug: Daryll40, I have to disagree. Our '06 Explorer lease is up in May of next year. I'm getting just under 15 mpg in the city and almost 23 mpg on the highway. 90%+ is city driving so it's mostly 15 mpg. I will consider the Edge, Flex, Taurus X, Explorer Sport Trac, and yes, another Explorer for my next vehicle. The comparable Hondas and Toyotas and Nissans are no more fuel efficient than the Fords I previously mentioned. Even when they are, their purchase prices are typically higher which offsets the 1-2 mpg difference. Think of it this way, if another Explorer (will be leasing again) costs me $50+ less per month than a Flex or something else, I'll never make that up in fuel savings with the other slightly more fuel efficient vehicle. The Explorer is every bit as useful as the others (even moreso if you tow which I don't) so there's no reason not to buy one when you look at it that way. Just don't drive it with a heavy right foot around the hills of Pittsburgh (I'm here too) and it's not all that bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OAC_Sparky Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 Ditto for a zillion other former Explorer buyers now shopping Toy/Hon. For what? A Sienna? What 7 passenger vehicle are you shopping for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 I failed? I don't think so. The jury is still out. I do agree that people who NEED 7 passenger vehicles may be attracted to Flex. But "need" diminishes greatly at $4/per. Most Explorer drivers, including myself can and will get by with much less since we now have to. My point is that while Flex might indeed be great in it's category, the category itself is nearly dead and not likely to resuscitate any time soon. Yes, you failed. You failed to point out that 17/24 is pretty damn good fuel economy. That's the same fuel economy rating as my MUCH smaller and less powerful Mazda6. A 7-passenger crossover gets the same fuel economy as my tiny little hatchback sedan. Yes, the Flex is horrible. 17/24 is pretty damn impressive for its size. The category is nearly dead? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 Hi all. I'm new to this board and this is my first post. I am however an avid Ford fan so hopefully I can contribute somewhat to, and learn something from, these discussions. :beerchug: Daryll40, I have to disagree. Our '06 Explorer lease is up in May of next year. I'm getting just under 15 mpg in the city and almost 23 mpg on the highway. 90%+ is city driving so it's mostly 15 mpg. I will consider the Edge, Flex, Taurus X, Explorer Sport Trac, and yes, another Explorer for my next vehicle. The comparable Hondas and Toyotas and Nissans are no more fuel efficient than the Fords I previously mentioned. Even when they are, their purchase prices are typically higher which offsets the 1-2 mpg difference. Think of it this way, if another Explorer (will be leasing again) costs me $50+ less per month than a Flex or something else, I'll never make that up in fuel savings with the other slightly more fuel efficient vehicle. The Explorer is every bit as useful as the others (even moreso if you tow which I don't) so there's no reason not to buy one when you look at it that way. Just don't drive it with a heavy right foot around the hills of Pittsburgh (I'm here too) and it's not all that bad. Welcome to the board! Sounds like you have a very level head on your shoulders compared to a lot of panic buyers these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 (edited) I saw a loaded $41,000 Flex at a local (Pittsburgh) dealer. I can't see how they'll sell. Folks like me with Explorers (Mountaineer, actually) are getting bupkis in the resale market for these hogs...so how will we move into Flex at that price. I predict they flop. They're basically Explorer replacements that get 3MPG better. Unless gas goes back to $2.50 (and even then, folks might be spooked that it won't last), it's over for this type of vehicle. I friend who is shopping for a new car was seriously looking at the Flex. That was until he realized he could get an Eddie Bauer Explorer for over $8,000 less (with current rebates) ! :o At $4/gal that's 2,000 gallons. That will make the 3 or 4 mpg difference go away fast !!!! (No, he doesn't need to haul 7 or 8 adults, but who does ?) Edited July 22, 2008 by theoldwizard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 I friend who is shopping for a new car was seriously looking at the Flex. That was until he realized he could get an Eddie Bauer Explorer for over $8,000 less (with current rebates) ! :o At $4/gal that's 2,000 gallons. That will make the 3 or 4 mpg difference go away fast !!!! (No, he doesn't need to haul 7 or 8 adults, but who does ?) Several months ago my brother picked up an EB Explorer with everything but the V8 for around $32,000. That's less than they paid for an Explorer XLT 5 years earlier. Of course, compared to the Flex, the Explorer these days seems pretty outdated, so it's not solely a fuel economy consideration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 Of course, compared to the Flex, the Explorer these days seems pretty outdated, so it's not solely a fuel economy consideration. Exactly. My wife has had her eyes on an Explorer and has had her heart set on it for several years. We drove one back-to-back with the Flex and the Explorer seemed VERY outdated. She likes the exterior of the Explorer much better, but when you sit inside, there is no comparison...the Flex wins hands-down. Fuel economy is one factor, but is not near the only factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daryll40 Posted July 22, 2008 Author Share Posted July 22, 2008 Exactly. My wife has had her eyes on an Explorer and has had her heart set on it for several years. We drove one back-to-back with the Flex and the Explorer seemed VERY outdated. She likes the exterior of the Explorer much better, but when you sit inside, there is no comparison...the Flex wins hands-down. Fuel economy is one factor, but is not near the only factor. You guys are STILL missing the point. People are NOT buying Honda Pilots or Toy4Runners...they are looking for SMALL QUALITY CARS. And that means TOYHON. Focus has gotten good ratings as has Fusion and Ford will get some of that. But the average American still feels the pain starting with Pinto/Vega thru Contour/Mystake when thinking "small car". So it's Corolla/Civic in large part that will be eating Flex's lunch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 (edited) You guys are STILL missing the point. People are NOT buying Honda Pilots or Toy4Runners...they are looking for SMALL QUALITY CARS. And that means TOYHON. Focus has gotten good ratings as has Fusion and Ford will get some of that. But the average American still feels the pain starting with Pinto/Vega thru Contour/Mystake when thinking "small car". So it's Corolla/Civic in large part that will be eating Flex's lunch. If I recall, the Pilot, Highlander (4Runner?? Seriously??), and Edge all sold around 10,000 units last month, just as they have for the past several months. That's nobody? That's 100,000+ units a year for all three. The bottom hasn't dropped out of the midsize CUV market like you seem to think it has. And well.... Honda Pilot FWD: 16/22 Toyota Highlander FWD: 18/24 Ford Edge FWD: 16/24 Ford Flex FWD: 17/24 Well lookee there. The Flex is right near the top of the pack. BOTTOM LINE: Someone looking at a freakin Civic or Corolla wouldn't have thought twice about looking at the Flex anyway...or the Pilot...or the Highlander...or the Edge. Edited July 22, 2008 by NickF1011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 You guys are STILL missing the point. People are NOT buying Honda Pilots or Toy4Runners...they are looking for SMALL QUALITY CARS. And that means TOYHON. Focus has gotten good ratings as has Fusion and Ford will get some of that. But the average American still feels the pain starting with Pinto/Vega thru Contour/Mystake when thinking "small car". So it's Corolla/Civic in large part that will be eating Flex's lunch. WRONG! Corolla/Civic are not eating Flex's lunch! They may eat the Focus's lunch (which they aren't as the Focus is doing well), but they are not in the same league or class as the Flex. True, people are getting away from buying big gas guzzlers that they don't NEED, but folks shopping for a Flex are not going to consider a Corolla or a Civic. There is no possible (safe) way you can fit 2 adults and 3 child booster/car seats in a compact car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daryll40 Posted July 22, 2008 Author Share Posted July 22, 2008 WRONG! Corolla/Civic are not eating Flex's lunch! They may eat the Focus's lunch (which they aren't as the Focus is doing well), but they are not in the same league or class as the Flex. True, people are getting away from buying big gas guzzlers that they don't NEED, but folks shopping for a Flex are not going to consider a Corolla or a Civic. There is no possible (safe) way you can fit 2 adults and 3 child booster/car seats in a compact car. But folks....LOTS AND LOTS OF FOLKS....shopping for a Corolla or a Civic USED TO be considering (vehicles the size of) Flex. Ford won't be able to achieve the economy of scale to make a Flex profitable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 But folks....LOTS AND LOTS OF FOLKS....shopping for a Corolla or a Civic USED TO be considering (vehicles the size of) Flex. Ford won't be able to achieve the economy of scale to make a Flex profitable. You have no proof or even any indication that people buying Civics and Corollas USED TO consider vehicles the size of the Flex. People with more than 2 kids are NOT buying Civics and Corollas. They just aren't. You might want to think they are, but it's just not practical for them. As for the economies of scale...how freaking much does it need? It shares its platform with 4 other vehicles already. It has been stated repeatedly that volume as low as 70,000 units a year (about half what the Edge is selling) would make the program profitable. Really, unless you come with anything new in this thread that wasn't already discuess ad nauseum in the original thread discussing this matter, we're done here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daryll40 Posted July 22, 2008 Author Share Posted July 22, 2008 But what you fail to realize is that in the cheap gas era, most SUV buyers did NOT have more than 2 kids. And most of them will not be buying excess vehicle capacity again. Yeah, I don't have "proof", but I do have common sense. Just look at the Ford/GM/C dealer lots and see what's gathering dust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 But what you fail to realize is that in the cheap gas era, most SUV buyers did NOT have more than 2 kids. And most of them will not be buying excess vehicle capacity again. Yeah, I don't have "proof", but I do have common sense. Just look at the Ford/GM/C dealer lots and see what's gathering dust. Please explain why crossover and minivan sales have not tanked the last 2 months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 But what you fail to realize is that in the cheap gas era, most SUV buyers did NOT have more than 2 kids. And most of them will not be buying excess vehicle capacity again. Yeah, I don't have "proof", but I do have common sense. Just look at the Ford/GM/C dealer lots and see what's gathering dust. Pilots, Highlanders, and Edges aren't gathering dust. So far, neither have Flexes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daryll40 Posted July 22, 2008 Author Share Posted July 22, 2008 Please explain why crossover and minivan sales have not tanked the last 2 months. Last I heard, the top selling crossover, the Honda CR-V, was down 21%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 Last I heard, the top selling crossover, the Honda CR-V, was down 21%. The CRV was only down 10% for June. The entire car industry is down on average about 15% this year, therefore any vehicle selling within 15% of last year's rates is maintaining market share. SUVs and Trucks are down 35%-50% and are losing market share. Minivans and crossovers are steady or rising slightly while small cars are rising quickly. If crossovers like the Flex were dead then we'd be seeing 50% declines in sales over 2007 and it's not happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daryll40 Posted July 22, 2008 Author Share Posted July 22, 2008 (edited) The CRV was only down 10% for June. The entire car industry is down on average about 15% this year, therefore any vehicle selling within 15% of last year's rates is maintaining market share. SUVs and Trucks are down 35%-50% and are losing market share. Minivans and crossovers are steady or rising slightly while small cars are rising quickly. If crossovers like the Flex were dead then we'd be seeing 50% declines in sales over 2007 and it's not happening. Well, good luck with the $40,000 Flex then. I still say you guys are living in a Detroit/Ford bubble and are just arranging the chairs on the deck by getting all excited over Flex and MKS while those of us outside the bubble clearly see that the Titanic needs quality small cars NOW to stay afloat. I have ALWAYS owned at least 1 Ford product and honestly want them to survive. But I just can't fathom how hyping a $40,000 16/24 vehicle is doing anything but kidding yourselves. Edited July 22, 2008 by Daryll40 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suv_guy_19 Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 Well, good luck with the $40,000 Flex then. I still say you guys are living in a Detroit/Ford bubble and are just arranging the chairs on the deck by getting all excited over Flex and MKS while those of us outside the bubble clearly see that the Titanic needs quality small cars NOW to stay afloat. I have ALWAYS owned at least 1 Ford product and honestly want them to survive. But I just can't fathom how hyping a $40,000 16/24 vehicle is doing anything but kidding yourselves. Unfortunately you may be right given the current climate. http://www.canada.com/globaltv/national/video/index.html Global National Stories, Ford Layoffs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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