Should the Mustang Have Gone This Route

[BlackHorse]

I recently had the opportunity to test drive the Hyundai Genesis Coupe and I must say I was very impressed. Personally I like the new Mustang and I think Ford has made some much needed improvements to the interior. The upcoming 300 hp 3.7 V6 is something I'm looking forward to as well. Now, having said that, I still found myself wondering if Ford should have taken or perhaps should take a more Genesis coupe approach to the Mustang. I'm not going to bore anyone with the "dude it was so fast" ramblings that permeate this board about various cars. Yes it was fast and yes it handled very well and I wasn't even driving the full on racing suspension version, just the touring version. The car is nimble, and the interior is well appointed and the price tag is fairly reasonable. A 300 HP V6 with leather and all the trimmings was 27K. I don' t know what the 0 - 60 and 1/4 mile times are so if you're all hung up on that kind of thing I'm sorry I don't have it. I've owned a Mustang GT (2006) and the performance of the Genesis seemed very comparable, better even with respect to handling. I couldn't help but wonder if a smaller, more nimble Mustang akin to the Genesis might be the way to go. Our government seems hell bent on killing anything with a V8 in it so it might be something to seriously consider. Just a thought.

[mettech]

Smaller engine = less front end weight = better handling.

 

I really believe that the I4 and V-6 Eco-Boost SHO engines should be in the Mustang now. The Coyote should still be offered in the GT500. Shelby and Super Snake however.

 

Wonder what the 1/4 mile run and track time would be with a 390HP V-6 Eco-Boost in a Mustang GT? Less weight, better MPG. :happy feet:

 

A I4 220HP Eco-Boost Mustang could get 30 MPG or greater. :happy feet: That could get the "Rice Burner Tuner Group" in the Ford market.

Edited November 6, 2009 by mettech

[Tornado]

To answer your question, no.

[ironhorse]

Take one of the last iconic automotive nameplates, and turn it into a politicly correct car for pussies?...No thanks.

[jpd80]

It's dangerous to change an Icon like Mustang.

What might be more appealing is to use the platform to develop a lighter car below it,

perhaps a car more in tune with smaller capacity I-4 turbo and V6 engines.

 

I'll refrain from using the C**RI name for fear of awakening Jelly from his slumber....

[mettech]

Take one of the last iconic automotive nameplates, and turn it into a politicly correct car for pussies?...No thanks.

 

Ford only wishes they could get the "pussies" that buy a Porsche 911 or Audi as a customer,

 

Customers like that buy more than one car and would be an excellent customer to buy more Ford products.

[twmalonehunter]

Ford only wishes they could get the "pussies" that buy a Porsche 911 or Audi as a customer,

 

Customers like that buy more than one car and would be an excellent customer to buy more Ford products.

 

I think Porsche only sold maybe 1800 cars total last month, so they don't have a whole lot of US buyers, maybe dreamers. And Porsche buyers wouldn't look at a Ford, jmo.

 

Audi customer, on the other hand, more poser I think. Of course if I was Ford, I would shoot for far better quality than VW/Audi.

[ironhorse]

The high brow import snobs won't buy a Ford period. Why destroy the brand chasing those buyers?

[mettech]

The high brow import snobs won't buy a Ford period. Why destroy the brand chasing those buyers?

 

The Sport/GT/Pony cars will have to live with the I4/I6/V-6 world soon. The V-8s will be limited productions in the car world and as such, that "brand" of cars will will not be the core product.

 

Everyone that owns a 911 or a Boxster is not a snob. :shades: They are a consumer that buys real performance and balance handling with clout.

 

It would be nice to see more Mustangs in the $1 million neighborhoods instead of the trailer parks. :shades: That is the consumer Ford should go after.

[Edstock]

Ford has stated that they will be reducing the weight on the next generations of their vehicles. IIRC, the next Mustang will be a little smaller, so it will be closer to the Hyundai. IIRC, the stylists that did the 2K10 Mustang tried to make it look smaller.

[ironhorse]

The Sport/GT/Pony cars will have to live with the I4/I6/V-6 world soon. The V-8s will be limited productions in the car world and as such, that "brand" of cars will will not be the core product.

 

Everyone that owns a 911 or a Boxster is not a snob. :shades: They are a consumer that buys real performance and balance handling with clout.

 

It would be nice to see more Mustangs in the $1 million neighborhoods instead of the trailer parks. :shades: That is the consumer Ford should go after.

 

Don't break a leg falling off your high horse.

[old_fairmont_wagon]

Fact is, Ford began to address the bloat in the mustang with this most recent refresh of it. Visually, it is slightly smaller (even if the measurements don't support that opinion) and they've begun work on trying to reduce it's weight. Now, we have the 3.7L V6 replacing the old 4.0L SOHC. This is another item that will reduce the weight of the vehicle while also improving its efficiency. I believe very firmly that the next major redo of the mustang will feature a modest reduction in size (similar to what the 370Z just went through) and weight (through the use of better technique and materials) in an effort to further improve its efficiency and handling.

 

And, yes, I would support the use of the EB I4 in the mustang as a base engine so long as it is as sporty to drive as the existing 4.0L SOHC setup and gets better gas mileage than the 3.7L DOHC V6. In fact, I would support Ford completely eliminating the V6 from the mustang and using the EB 2.0L I4 as the only base engine so long as it delivered 275 HP, 275 lbs of torque, great gas mileage, and was still somewhat tunable by the purchaser.

 

There should always be a GT version available with a v8. It may become more limited in production, but it should always be available.

 

In my own little world, the Mustang should look like this...

 

Base 2.0L I4 EB

GT Coyote 5.0L V8 (improved handling and brakes over base)

SVO 3.5L V6 EB (weight reduction and improve handling)

GT500 Coyote 5.0L TT (SVO weight reduction, further improved handling)

and an extremely limited run Terminator with a 7.0L TT V8 That delivers 770 HP and 700 lbs of torque. It can have its own Custom IRS setup (so long as it actually improves performance) and can cost as much as you care to ask. By extremely limited, I mean less than 500 built total.

 

And, yes, that's a lot of forced induction. count me as a fan of it.

[Project-Fairmont]

Once the Celica went FWD and the 200SX went away, there is a vaccum left for those desiring an affordable, slightly smaller more nimble RWD import alternative to the Pony car.

 

The Genesis coupe is the new alternative. The last Ford that fit that bill was the Mercury Capri of the Seventies and possibly the Merkur XR4Ti in the late Eighties. I don't believe you will see Dearborn engineering a smaller RWD coupe than the Mustang anytime soon.

 

I would be very much interested in a stateside Focus RS though, although it should be AWD. And that is the crux of the issue; RWD performance cars are not the future....AWD is how you get the power to the ground from a contemporary family car based chassis.

Edited November 6, 2009 by Project-Fairmont

[mettech]

AWD Mustang..... Now that would kick.

 

Much like Hyundia... Ford is going upscale with each product in their lineup.

Edited November 6, 2009 by mettech

[jpd80]

Just remember Focus Coupe Cabriolet is already available in the rest of the world,

if that gains the 2.0 Ecoboost I-4 then I think you'd have your sub-Mustang sports car.

[BlackHorse]

Despite Ironhorse's obvious dislike of the Genesis I can assure everyone that it is not a car for "pussies" as he put it. I've owned a 2006 Mustang GT and I've now driven the Genesis so I have the perspective of what both cars are capable of. The Genesis is a very capable car Ironhorse and I feel confident in saying that form a handling point of view the Genesis would most likely fair better on a slalom course. I don't want to get into the cyber racing or the "which one is faster" nonsense. I think it's most likely that the GT and V6 Genesis are close enough in mechanical capability that it really is going to come down to the driver. I have not had the opportunity to drive the 2.0 turbo model although I would love to give it a shot. Also I agree with old fairmont wagon, I wouldn't mind seeing a slightly smaller Mustang with a good inline turbo engine. That is by no means going to destroy the "iconic Mustang" because some of you I'm sure remember when they did it before . . .

 

 

A Mustang that, by the way, has become one of the most collectible Mustangs. But it's a 4 cylinder turbo so it must be for pussies. lol

Edited November 6, 2009 by BlackHorse

[RaZor]

Don't break a leg falling off your high horse.

I agree. I have a neighbor that has a 911. Trades it in every 4 years. Current one is black and is his daily driver. He (they) also have a Class A RV that is custom and cost over 7 figures. He spent $80k on a special fence/gates to conceal it (city/neighborhood has deed restrictions on being able to see it from street etc).

 

He or his wife never have taken it out to Palm Beach International Raceway for Porsche driver meets (Ferrari also has them there every year) which is 6 miles away - and gives you "track time" (to allow you to stretch its legs). Personally, I think he would be scared shitless. I know/have known dozens of people that own these kinds of cars. Almost all do it for the status.

 

Like an attorney friend that has owned Porkers for 20+ years said, "It's really a chic magnet" To which his wife immediately responded (at a party), "And a "hunk" magnet too" I don't think that they are in an open marriage - they just both really love the attention that the car gets them - from the opposite sex. Most people that buy $100,000 plus cars do it because of status - that is what they want to be seen in - in their mind, it defines them.

 

The Mustang will never fit the bill in their minds. The GT did for some - and if Ford ever desires to conquer some of that market - it would need to be along the lines of the GR1 - or something of that nature that costs the correct amount ($100k +) and has the appropriate amount of luxury and status.

 

Status - how important is it? Look-up the percentage of people that lease luxury cars - instead of purchasing them. Leasing allows them to go higher than they can really afford - to get that status.

 

Along a similar line is the "chic in the roadster" thingee. Why have chics always liked to buy roadsters (hence rendering most of these cars from Boxsters, to Miatas, to Soltices, way back to MGBs, etc - chick cars)? A big part of it is they want to be thought of "sporty", a "free spirit", "exciting" (etc) and they love to put the top down . . . to be seen. A very small percentage are avid sports car enthusiasts.

[silvrsvt]

Status - how important is it? Look-up the percentage of people that lease luxury cars - instead of purchasing them. Leasing allows them to go higher than they can really afford - to get that status.

 

Exactly...people get hung up that Ford should be chasing down Porsche, BMW, insert your favorite car maker, when it doesn't need too..just that people want a car like that because of the "status" it gives them, but they don't want to pay for it.

[goinbroke2]

Where's that picture again? you know the "ahh geez, not this shit again" one?

 

Mustangs have been v-8 rwd with a sra forever. "does that mean it can't change?" No but to make it a pussy car would ruin it. What do I mean by pussy car? Making it what a bunch on here are saying, a techno geek import wannabe.

Do you not understand that the mustang is what everybody copies? ford didn't build the mustang as a ford's version of another car. And they certainly didn't chase other makers cars switching year to year on what is the latest fad.

Gee, the mustang should be 2000lb's and fwd like a civic, look how good they're selling and the young kids today don't want a v-8 because it's outdated...really, where are those late 90's civic's with the ricer mods now??

No, the mustang should be awd and 4 doors like a wrx because it's kicking everybody's butt, check out any magazine for proof...where are the wrx's now? OOHH they won a rally somewhere...whatever.

 

I'll agree with the "lighten it up" and 4cyl ecoboost, 6cyl eco and v8 for GT.

Base 4cyl is good on gas for the 19yo kid but has a good base for them to hop it up.

6cyl is good for the married guy, even after the one kid.

GT is what it always was, if I have to explain that then you shouldn't be driving one. (or commenting)

 

As far as the GT500 or shelby or supersnake or any other of the million other "exclusive" mustangs they can have whatever power they want. It's basically a chest thumping for each anyway.

 

For all you that dismiss the racing heritage that IS ONGOING all I can say is keep on driving your fwd car and stop trying to change something for the sake of change. No, the mustang shouldn't be a genesis, it should be a mustang.

 

 

One last thing, make the mustang a 4 and 6cyl only car and even if it was twice as fast as any camaro/challenger...it would still suck in most eyes. (including mine)

Yes I know a guy who had a built 429 in a 1975 mustangII. (this was in 1979) Very fast and stock looking (relatively) I still tease him about it. 74-77's are a joke, even if they "politically correctly" sold well compared to the 71-73's.

 

A gelding stang would be the same.

[RichardJensen]

a smaller, more nimble Mustang

Mustang GT weight: 3533

Genesis weight: 3439

 

GT length x width x WB:188.1 x 73.9 x 107.1

Genesis length x width x WB: 182.3 x 73.4 x 111

 

For an extra 100lbs & 6" you get a car that actually looks like something.

 

Seems like a reasonable tradeoff to me.

 

----

 

BTW: -My- theory is that Jeep should make the Wrangler more like the Honda Element. Why cater to those few freaks that actually use a Wrangler for what it's intended? Make a Wrangler we can all enjoy!!

[NickF1011]

Ford only wishes they could get the "pussies" that buy a Porsche 911 or Audi as a customer,

 

Customers like that buy more than one car and would be an excellent customer to buy more Ford products.

 

 

I know many people, including myself, who own a Mustang as a second or third car.

[Tico]

First of all: Genesis sales figures (I would guess this includes coupes and 4 doors!)

 

CARLINE OCT/2009 OCT/2008

GENESIS 1,850 1,121

 

source http://www.hyundainews.com/Corporate_News/...3_2009_3326.asp

 

So I guess if Ford wants to reduce it's sales by more than 1/2 yes, even after adding a 4 door go for it!

 

 

Next, the 2014 Mustang:

 

Smaller: Yes

 

Lighter: Yes

 

Turbo I4 option: Yes as long as it keeps completive weight to HP ratio with competition's entry level.

 

V6 Ecoboost in GT: Yes but V8 must be option in GT also. Maybe call the turbo 6 something else SVO or maybe LX?! The V8 of 2014 could also get much better mileage than what we have now!!!

 

Drop the V8 from the GT altogether? Never.! I have an '04 GT and you know what? Even though it is "only" 260 HP, 300 ft-lbs torque, it would not be a Mustang with out the V8 sound. It is what makes the car. I had a co worker over from Europe on day and we went to lunch and as soon as I turned the key his face light up and he says "V8, cool!" That is why people buy Mustangs and Camaros. I don't care how small the V8 has to get it still should be a V8!!!

 

Take the Mustang "upscale"? No. You can always have special editions for the few who have the cash. Doesn't the Cobra cover these people? Also what about Lincoln. If you want a super luxury / Euro sprots car Mustang for mucho $$$ make it a Lincoln!!!

 

Actually I think the dimensions of the '94-'04 Mustangs with 2014 styling and power trains is about what Ford needs to do.

 

Oh and the 4000 to 5000 sales per month of Mustang will get better when the new engines get here next spring and the newness of Camaro wears off.

 

I seriously doubt Genesis is taking any sales from Mustang. OK maybe one, they guy who started this Thread.

[Deanh]

It's dangerous to change an Icon like Mustang.

What might be more appealing is to use the platform to develop a lighter car below it,

perhaps a car more in tune with smaller capacity I-4 turbo and V6 engines.

 

I'll refrain from using the C**RI name for fear of awakening Jelly from his slumber....

Probe flashback...........

[Sixt9coug]

Probe flashback...........

 

repress it Dean. The aliens let you go after all.

[Pioneer]

repress it Dean. The aliens let you go after all.