The idiocy of a compact Lincoln

[RichardJensen]

Contingency plan,

Unless Ford already planned for the Tracer to have different sheet metal to the Focus,

if you were planning to kill off a brand, it would make sense to have product ready to switch just like that..

 

Or maybe the Focus global project is that big it can absorb that Lincoln sheet metal cost,

perhaps even selling a baby Lincoln in Asia and Europe as the first of several global Lincolns....

1 : The Tracer wasn't going to have dramatically different sheetmetal, if it was going to have any different sheetmetal at all.

 

2 : Paying for Lincoln with profits from Ford is as wrong as paying for Jaguar with profits from Ford. If the product can't pay its own way, it doesn't belong on the market.

 

3 : Big luxury sells in emerging markets, and the bigger the better. Why? Because there's nobody on the 'cusp'--you're either rich or you're dirt stinkin' poor. Middle class? Won't have that until you've got unions--or some kind of equitable labor system.

[ausrutherford]

1 : The Tracer wasn't going to have dramatically different sheetmetal, if it was going to have any different sheetmetal at all.

 

2 : Paying for Lincoln with profits from Ford is as wrong as paying for Jaguar with profits from Ford. If the product can't pay its own way, it doesn't belong on the market.

 

3 : Big luxury sells in emerging markets, and the bigger the better. Why? Because there's nobody on the 'cusp'--you're either rich or you're dirt stinkin' poor. Middle class? Won't have that until you've got unions--or some kind of equitable labor system.

 

I think he ment to say that the cost savings of a compact Focus pay for a compact Lincoln on the same platform. Just think of a the millions Ford is saving by going from 2 Focuses to 1.

[jpd80]

Overall Volvo volume is in the 300k-400k range. I'm going to assume they move far more C70s overseas than they do in the US.

 

And I have no particular fondness for cars like the C70 that exist primarily because some exec felt they were necessary (cf Lexus SC400)

C70 is basically a bloated Swedish Focus that weighs 3800 lbs, it's a shocker..

if Ford can't do a better version that that they should give up now.

[jpd80]

1 : The Tracer wasn't going to have dramatically different sheetmetal, if it was going to have any different sheetmetal at all.

 

2 : Paying for Lincoln with profits from Ford is as wrong as paying for Jaguar with profits from Ford. If the product can't pay its own way, it doesn't belong on the market.

 

Paying for Mercury's demise with Ford's profits seems to fit well with company policy,

I don't see why amortizing costs across common design platforms is such an impossibility.

 

Unlike Jaguar that shared sweet FA with the rest of Ford, Lincoln is a fully integrated.

 

Richard, I wish you would hold fire until we see what Ford is planning...

Edited June 4, 2010 by jpd80

[atomcat68]

Paying for Mercury's demise with Ford's profits seems to fit well with company policy,

I don't see why amortizing costs across common design platforms is such an impossibility.

 

Unlike Jaguar that shared sweet FA with the rest of Ford, Lincoln is a fully integrated.

 

Richard, I wish you would hold fire until we see what Ford is planning...

But Ford only has to pay for the demise of Mercury once.

[lfeg]

I just do not see where a Lincoln based on a "smaller" platform is so repugnant. First of all, the platform the upcoming Focus is based on has been designed to be able to support a wide range of vehicles. A Lincoln based on this platform is not necessarily a small car. Sure, smaller than a MKS, but has anyone seen it yet? It is possible that this upcoming Lincoln could equal the MKZ in space and exterior dimensions - does that make the MKZ a small car too?

 

If Ford has any pretentions of marketing Lincoln in places other than North America, they are going to have to have something other than their current lineup. Could this car be part of such a plan? And where is most of the growth? Certainly not Europe. And why the hangup about a new offering being something other than a car, such as a CUV/SUV? Just call it a Lincoln.

 

If Lincoln is to grow, it has to have something that sets it apart. Any new Lincoln has to have a set of features that is unique to the market, especially if it will be made available in markets other than North America. The feature set can help define an image, and the image is what sells the vehicle.

[jpd80]

But Ford only has to pay for the demise of Mercury once.

I understand that but the money Ford is going to compensate Mercury dealers

could have also easily given Ford a newer fresher line of Mercury products.

 

Water under the bridge now....

 

I just hope they really get going with Lincoln and fill it with appropriate products...

Edited June 4, 2010 by jpd80

[RichardJensen]

I think he ment to say that the cost savings of a compact Focus pay for a compact Lincoln on the same platform. Just think of a the millions Ford is saving by going from 2 Focuses to 1.

 

Yeah, but Mulally's Ford won't keep programs that don't pay their own way.

 

In other words, you can't subsidize the compact Lincoln with the money you saved on the global Focus.

 

That might be where you find the money to -invest- in the program, but the key word there is -invest-.

 

You don't -invest- money without an expectation of a return. Ford expects to get more than a dollar back for every dollar they spend on ALL their vehicles these days, and that's as it should be.

 

---

 

And I agree with Nick--if this is a CUV, I have no problems. I think the market would willingly support an appropriately styled smaller Lincoln CUV.

 

But nothing A3/C30 shaped, and almost certainly nothing S40 sized.

[NickF1011]

But nothing A3/C30 shaped, and almost certainly nothing S40 sized.

 

I think an S40-type of vehicle for Lincoln would be far more successful than an A3/C30 type of thing. I think it's an inevitability, but hopefully it will be done properly. I think they should focus more on differentiating and upmarketing the MKZ first though to make room for a smaller car in the price scale. You don't want to have to sell a $25,000 Lincoln - in fact, I don't think you really could and ever make any money on it. I totally agree with you (and Mulally) about each vehicle having to pay its own way.

Edited June 4, 2010 by NickF1011

[jpd80]

And I agree with Nick--if this is a CUV, I have no problems. I think the market would willingly support an appropriately styled smaller Lincoln CUV.

 

But nothing A3/C30 shaped, and almost certainly nothing S40 sized.

 

That's why I think the subtle "Lincoln’s first-ever C-segment vehicle" pricked a few ears.

They didn't say car, but they didn't say Utility either.

[Bored of Pisteon]

 

Did I hear the topic of being a compact Lincoln?

[ausrutherford]

Yeah, but Mulally's Ford won't keep programs that don't pay their own way.

 

In other words, you can't subsidize the compact Lincoln with the money you saved on the global Focus.

 

That might be where you find the money to -invest- in the program, but the key word there is -invest-.

 

You don't -invest- money without an expectation of a return. Ford expects to get more than a dollar back for every dollar they spend on ALL their vehicles these days, and that's as it should be.

 

---

 

And I agree with Nick--if this is a CUV, I have no problems. I think the market would willingly support an appropriately styled smaller Lincoln CUV.

 

But nothing A3/C30 shaped, and almost certainly nothing S40 sized.

 

If Ford did a MkC with styling of the Concept C, a convertible option, and an optional RS engine....it could sell 2k units in the US and 1k a month in other current Lincoln markets.

 

Also, a compact Lincoln could easily be built in China, Russia, and South America along side the Focus. Its really easy to get this thing to make a profit.

[ausrutherford]

With Lincoln only having 5 models in the next year and 7 on the way...that means, they are going to add TWO new models, so I bet we get both a compact car and crossover.

[RichardJensen]

I think an S40-type of vehicle for Lincoln would be far more successful than an A3/C30 type of thing

 

At the same time, I would have a hard time imagining that it would outsell the MKZ, and that means pretty minuscule volume.

[RichardJensen]

If Ford did a MkC with styling of the Concept C, a convertible option, and an optional RS engine....it could sell 2k units in the US and 1k a month in other current Lincoln markets.

 

Also, a compact Lincoln could easily be built in China, Russia, and South America along side the Focus. Its really easy to get this thing to make a profit.

I think you have no basis whatsoever for that optimism--and even at that optimistic total, you're looking at questionable profitability, given the amount of Lincoln specific coachwork & technology you're assigning it.

[NLPRacing]

With Lincoln only having 5 models in the next year and 7 on the way...that means, they are going to add TWO new models, so I bet we get both a compact car and crossover.

 

The Town car is going away, so it will probably be a compact car, compact CUV and hopefully something cool like an MKR.

[ausrutherford]

I think you have no basis whatsoever for that optimism--and even at that optimistic total, you're looking at questionable profitability, given the amount of Lincoln specific coachwork & technology you're assigning it.

 

If the MkT can be profitable at the levels it is now, then so can this and higher levels. Besides Lincoln needs to move into other markets. China and South American markets are both growing faster than the US market, and this will allow Lincoln to go into those countries very well.

[ausrutherford]

At the same time, I would have a hard time imagining that it would outsell the MKZ, and that means pretty minuscule volume.

 

It would rather be easy since the MkZ production is being hurt by Fusion stealing its volume.

[mackinaw]

That's why I think the subtle "Lincoln’s first-ever C-segment vehicle" pricked a few ears. They didn't say car, but they didn't say Utility either.

 

But they suggested it will be a car, at least that's how the Detroit press corp interpreted Field's and Kuzak's remarks.

 

From the Detroit News, "......Included in that will be a new compact based on the same platform as the new Ford Focus. Mercury was to get a more upmarket version of the Focus, but those resources will now go to a Lincoln version that Kuzak said would be quite different from the Ford version. "It will not be a badge-engineered version of another Ford product," he said.

 

From The Detroit News: http://detnews.com/article/20100602/AUTO01/6020400/Ford-retires-72-year-old-Mercury-brand#ixzz0puIAoLEb

[AlRozzi]

The Town car is going away, so it will probably be a compact car, compact CUV and hopefully something cool like an MKR.

 

Who knows. With no Mercury and no Cougar, maybe we could see a Mustang-based Lincoln Mark VIII successor? Maybe not?

[NickF1011]

"It will not be a badge-engineered version of another Ford product," he said.

 

That statement does nothing to clear it up. If Kuzak wanted to say it was going to be a car, he would have just said "It will not be a badge-engineered Focus."

[ausrutherford]

That statement does nothing to clear it up. If Kuzak wanted to say it was going to be a car, he would have just said "It will not be a badge-engineered Focus."

 

It does. A Compact crossover would be happening until the escape for MY13...so the chances of it being a car for MY12 is more likely. If its not a rebadged Focus, then the car will be totally different like the MkT to the Flex.

[NickF1011]

It does. A Compact crossover would be happening until the escape for MY13...so the chances of it being a car for MY12 is more likely. If its not a rebadged Focus, then the car will be totally different like the MkT to the Flex.

 

Eh, MY13 really isn't that far off when you think about it. MY12's will be launching in 6 months. I suspect a Lincoln C-car would at the very least trail the '12 Focus by 6 months anyway. That barely puts it ahead of a potentially new Escape launch.

[ausrutherford]

Eh, MY13 really isn't that far off when you think about it. MY12's will be launching in 6 months. I suspect a Lincoln C-car would at the very least trail the '12 Focus by 6 months anyway. That barely puts it ahead of a potentially new Escape launch.

 

Im just saying they wouldnt announce this car if it was as far away as the Escape and the compact crossover is. It has to be the MkC.

[NickF1011]

Im just saying they wouldnt announce this car if it was as far away as the Escape and the compact crossover is. It has to be the MkC.

 

I don't think it has to be anything. They announced it because it will be the next new model. They are being intentionally vague because it's likely still a ways off.