VOTE NO ON THE UAW-FORD HEALTH CARE DEAL!

[Y2KGT]

Vote NO. This is pure Bullshit! Ford is not hurting nearly as bad as GM is so why do we have to give up more of our hard earned money?

 

VOTE NO FUCKING WAY!

[sailorjohn]

Vote NO. This is pure Bullshit! Ford is not hurting nearly as bad as GM is so why do we have to give up more of our hard earned money?

 

 

So we don't end up like GM?

 

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[06StangAwesomecar]

I am going to vote no, the people at Gm did this and look were it got them, Plant closings,

Ford will do the same thing, and then get rid of 30,000, so vote No and they will still close plants and get rid of 30,000 people.

[Me]

I'd like to know how this health care deal will cause Ford to get serious and give us products to build that customers actually want. Concessions won't do a damn thing to gain market share..only PRODUCT can do that. Why should people looking at layoffs, working at plants with out of date, poor selling products, worry about this shit, when Ford is making their NEW cars that people DO want in MEXICO??

 

Give us a REASON to accept concessions, until that happens put me down for NO.

[Quickdraw]

I am going to vote no, the people at Gm did this and look were it got them, Plant closings,

Ford will do the same thing, and then get rid of 30,000, so vote No and they will still close plants and get rid of 30,000 people.

 

No, if you vote NO they'll have to get rid of 35,000 or 40,000.

Edited December 12, 2005 by Quickdraw

[DRODMOTORS]

You can't be serious :rolleyes:

[06StangAwesomecar]

No, if you vote NO they'll have to get rid of 35,000 or 40,000.

 

 

Like I said, If I vote YES, they are still going to close plants, and get rid of 30,000

[Footballfan]

I am suprised that the UAW would agree to concessions without getting something back in return. There are probably some secret deals in the pact about minimizing job losses if it is passed. However, what is Ford going to do with all these savings? The UAW should have gotten some iron-clad agreement that the savings would be put back in the product. Until I got more details that this was happening, my vote would be "no."

[mrballsonya]

I can hear all the Local Unions Now....... "If we don't Vote yes on these concessions, our plant will be at the top of the plant closing List".

 

I have to agree with Football on his point of the National getting some secret deals and assurances, If they didn't.... they're morons. The timing of this whole thing just reeks of under the table dealings.

 

Ford definately needs some help right now, and I think most of us who've been lucky enough to work for FoMoCo will agree to the concessions. It would be nice if we all could get assurances that the money saved will be used for increased product development.

 

Ford has to come out with some better vehicles in order to maintain and/or increase market share. If we aren't making cars that people want, then no amount of plant closings or concessions will make a difference.

[Glory_dayzd]

I work at AAP, and I will not vote for it. Further, if they announced ALL of the plants which are to be closed tomorrow, I would not vote for it.

I find it disheartening that a lot of folks here seem to be basing their thoughts regarding voting upon knowing the details of the current restructure plan... I say current, because it seems to be changing perpetually. One thing has nothing to do with the other; we need to seperate this in our minds.

We have already lost, if 'knowing' which plants are to close is the condition we place upon voting to reduce our benefit.

I honestly believe that when the 'way forward' (hah) plan is announced, details will only be given regarding imminent closings, and that others will be announced sixty days before closing.

Contracts are negotiated evey four years; had we stayed with the three year contracts, this would be a contract year. I am not sure of the reasons for the company and union to go to a four year plan, but they had their reasons. Apparently, it has not worked out as well for the company as anticipated.

What does get my attention, though, is the way everything has suposedly gone to Hades, within such a short period of time, paricularly after all the years, one right after another, of record profit-making. Is Ford actually broke? Why is Ford not giving dealers Tauruses to sell to the general public? Has Ford just now truely begun to see that they need a better product mix? Or, is Ford not meeting the expectations created from the run of profitable years? And, are they comparing what they could be making if they relocated outside this country? Ultimately, we all know that, since apples are not oranges, we cannot compete with China wages. Efficiency won't get it, in the long run, as our competitors will also strive for better efficiency.

I said a reduction in benefit because basicly, that is what it is. A wage concession is different from a payment towards a benefit which previously was without a payment. One is before taxes, the other is paid out of dollars which have been taxed.

Further, retiree income is based upon the pay level at retirement. So, people draw less when wage concessions are made at any time, for whatever reason, upon retirement. Which means that retirees pay...

If we vote to give up a future raise, and to make the retiree's pay actual after-tax dollars towards medical insurance, we are virtually voting to untimately bear all costs related to medical insurance, at some future point in time, for all Ford hourly employees and retirees. We all know how this works. Once the foot is in the door, the body follows.

I will not vote to give away this important benefit. It was too hard won. I know a lot of us think that we have to do this, because GM has, and that maybe it has to happen. Please, just say no.

[darkkon]

Glad im looking at alternatives.. grrr

Edited December 12, 2005 by darkkon

[fog8153]

If we vote yes now we will lose something then at the contract talks I'm sure we will lose even more so why get burned twice wait until then .

[Imawhosure]

Glory,

 

I repectfully disagree with you, these two things are tied together.

 

Let me also say to "The Ford Motor Company," I am more than willing to help you out by giving back a little; but I am going to vote NO for the present time.

 

Why???? Rest assured, it is not because of you............what it boils down to is, "the union has gotten sneaky with this vote before the announcements, and its about time they learn we are not sheep, and no longer listen to their words as if Gospel!"

 

In my mind, it is about time they realize they are losing control unless they answer to us, the dues paying members; and become more informative of everything going on, even if it happens to make them look bad.(hey, we didn't ask you to run for office. You don't like to answer uncomfortable questions, resign!) Also, Ford needs to circumvent the union on how it wants to do business with us, as they always add some nonsense in to protect their "favorite" group of deadbeats.

 

Gentlemen/ladies, when we go to our committee people, and all they can answer to a simple question is, "I don't know, or I will get back to you," we are obviously asking the wrong people anyway. (Don't take it personal Tony T. you are not one of them, and CAP has changed because of you. I only wish the rest of the plants had the nerve to try what we did, they would be much happier)

 

We need to wake up, and send a clear message to our union-------------->we will vote against this because of you, and not Ford.(at least till we see the restructure) We are also letting all of you reps know; that when we get together, your power is only a fraction of ours, cause this is a democracy, and not a dictatorship with you at the forefront.

[dark270]

No, if you vote NO they'll have to get rid of 35,000 or 40,000.

they are going to do that anyway...i am still voting NO..

[TwinCityAssembly]

I'm voting NO!

[Raws41900]

I'm voting YES!..

 

 

 

 

 

like it matters.

[Extreme4x4]

Amazing............... you people would cut off your nose to spite your face. :blink:

 

From an outsider, who ............. when we have insurance again (first of the year), will be paying way more than what is being asked of you (by probably 4-10X).............. you sound pathetic.

 

You wonder why the public has turned against the unions??? Hmmmmm, I wonder.

You wonder why many blame the unions for much of the problems the Domestics are having??? Hmmmmm, I wonder.

You wonder why we don't sypathize with you??? Hmmmm, I wonder.

 

If Ford does not get the Union concessions, Wallstreet will lower their bonds even further into junk status. This means Ford will have an even harder time borrowing for the development of future products (or do you think they just have 10's of billions sitting around for this............... and not just to keep afloat). Lowered funds for development means that you will have even more to bitch about in the years to come.

 

Mistakes were made in the past............... and will continue to be made. However, many of you sound about as logical as my 3-year-old.

 

It sounds as though many of you would really just like to see Ford go out of business. After all, it would serve them right............... right??? For making some mistakes, and for trying to stem the tide of red ink. Geez, some of you sound as if you think they are a non profit organization.

 

I fully expect to get the crap beat out of me for this post. I do understand the uncertainty............... as those of us on the "outside" face it everyday. I understand the stress and anxiety of the unknown. But if some attitudes don't change, some of you are going to "stand your ground" right into the unemployment line.

[Glory_dayzd]

Amazing............... you people would cut off your nose to spite your face. :blink:

 

From an outsider, who ............. when we have insurance again (first of the year), will be paying way more than what is being asked of you (by probably 4-10X).............. you sound pathetic.

 

You wonder why the public has turned against the unions??? Hmmmmm, I wonder.

You wonder why many blame the unions for much of the problems the Domestics are having??? Hmmmmm, I wonder.

You wonder why we don't sypathize with you??? Hmmmm, I wonder.

 

If Ford does not get the Union concessions, Wallstreet will lower their bonds even further into junk status. This means Ford will have an even harder time borrowing for the development of future products (or do you think they just have 10's of billions sitting around for this............... and not just to keep afloat). Lowered funds for development means that you will have even more to bitch about in the years to come.

 

Mistakes were made in the past............... and will continue to be made. However, many of you sound about as logical as my 3-year-old.

 

It sounds as though many of you would really just like to see Ford go out of business. After all, it would serve them right............... right??? For making some mistakes, and for trying to stem the tide of red ink. Geez, some of you sound as if you think they are a non profit organization.

 

I fully expect to get the crap beat out of me for this post. I do understand the uncertainty............... as those of us on the "outside" face it everyday. I understand the stress and anxiety of the unknown. But if some attitudes don't change, some of you are going to "stand your ground" right into the unemployment line.

Actually, I don't that many of us 'wonder' about any of those things... Nor do we 'ask' for ANYTHING from the public, particularly sympathy, most of us believe in working hard, taking pride in our work, and paying our own way. And we are realistic enough to believe that if we offer the public a product they want, they will be more inclined to buy it... It is that simple. But, regarding our insurance, it is better to give up future raises than to establish a precedent of paying for our insurance; you sneer at what you percieve as a paltry payment, but that would be the starting point. 2007 contract negotiations would guarantee that. This is an employee forum. Throughout it's entirety, there are lots of ideas and feelings expressed, generally by employees, but sometimes by what you call 'outsiders'. This is also a public forum, which means that 'outsiders' are privy to our thoughts, ideas and feelings. It is totally up to the 'outsider' if they wish to focus upon those thougts, ideas, and feelings which they can find reasons to sneer at, or put us down, but as that 'outsider', there is no way you can know, or would even care to know, the whole story regarding us pathetic 'union' folk... It would not fulfil your need to snipe or take potshots at us. And that is ok. we understand. You have a better day, now.

[06StangAwesomecar]

Actually, I don't that many of us 'wonder' about any of those things... Nor do we 'ask' for ANYTHING from the public, particularly sympathy, most of us believe in working hard, taking pride in our work, and paying our own way. And we are realistic enough to believe that if we offer the public a product they want, they will be more inclined to buy it... It is that simple. But, regarding our insurance, it is better to give up future raises than to establish a precedent of paying for our insurance; you sneer at what you percieve as a paltry payment, but that would be the starting point. 2007 contract negotiations would guarantee that. This is an employee forum. Throughout it's entirety, there are lots of ideas and feelings expressed, generally by employees, but sometimes by what you call 'outsiders'. This is also a public forum, which means that 'outsiders' are privy to our thoughts, ideas and feelings. It is totally up to the 'outsider' if they wish to focus upon those thougts, ideas, and feelings which they can find reasons to sneer at, or put us down, but as that 'outsider', there is no way you can know, or would even care to know, the whole story regarding us pathetic 'union' folk... It would not fulfil your need to snipe or take potshots at us. And that is ok. we understand. You have a better day, now.

Good reply, so true, so true, <_<

[Raws41900]

I'm a douche bag..

 

I agree.

[Len_A]

Amazing............... you people would cut off your nose to spite your face. :blink:

 

From an outsider, who ............. when we have insurance again (first of the year), will be paying way more than what is being asked of you (by probably 4-10X).............. you sound pathetic.

 

You wonder why the public has turned against the unions??? Hmmmmm, I wonder.

You wonder why many blame the unions for much of the problems the Domestics are having??? Hmmmmm, I wonder.

You wonder why we don't sypathize with you??? Hmmmm, I wonder.

 

If Ford does not get the Union concessions, Wallstreet will lower their bonds even further into junk status. This means Ford will have an even harder time borrowing for the development of future products (or do you think they just have 10's of billions sitting around for this............... and not just to keep afloat). Lowered funds for development means that you will have even more to bitch about in the years to come.

 

Mistakes were made in the past............... and will continue to be made. However, many of you sound about as logical as my 3-year-old.

 

It sounds as though many of you would really just like to see Ford go out of business. After all, it would serve them right............... right??? For making some mistakes, and for trying to stem the tide of red ink. Geez, some of you sound as if you think they are a non profit organization.

 

I fully expect to get the crap beat out of me for this post. I do understand the uncertainty............... as those of us on the "outside" face it everyday. I understand the stress and anxiety of the unknown. But if some attitudes don't change, some of you are going to "stand your ground" right into the unemployment line.

I know exactly where you're coming from, as well as I know exactly where these guys are coming from. I've been an hourly employee, I am the relative of a current salaried manager, and my dad is an hourly retiree. I've also been an "outsider" for the better part of two decades, asa supplier. I haven't spoken to my parents since this story broke on the weekend, because I've already heard the "It's not fair, we planned on everything being covered in retirement" speech. For the record, my brother, despite being salaried and having had to pay for some of his insurance for the last ten years, is on the side of the hourly employees and retirees.

 

Myself, I'm not on anyone's side. Both sides have a point, and that's what frustrates me. I don't like what's happening, but I also no longer see an alternative. Everything we've been accustom to has become so damn expenssive to the employer, that shifting some of the cost to the employees is inevitiable. Do I think it's fair? Hell no. Do I see an answer? Nope. I used to think a single-payer health care system like Canada's might be an answer, but my relatives in Canada, whom I spent time with a family memebers wedding recently, did nothing but bad mouth that system as well, so I have no answers to offer anymore.

 

And Glory_dayzd is right about one thing - outsiders are going to focus about what ever they want to focus on. I've had twenty long fucking years of first hand experience with that, with most of that time defending my hourly Detroit autoworker brethren, and recently keeping my mouth shut because not only can't I win the arguement with these people, I've been informed it's hurt my career speaking out like I did.

 

I am no longer confident that anything can fix the situation we're all in.

[methos]

Amazing............... you people would cut off your nose to spite your face. :blink:

 

From an outsider, who ............. when we have insurance again (first of the year), will be paying way more than what is being asked of you (by probably 4-10X).............. you sound pathetic.

 

You wonder why the public has turned against the unions??? Hmmmmm, I wonder.

You wonder why many blame the unions for much of the problems the Domestics are having??? Hmmmmm, I wonder.

You wonder why we don't sypathize with you??? Hmmmm, I wonder.

 

If Ford does not get the Union concessions, Wallstreet will lower their bonds even further into junk status. This means Ford will have an even harder time borrowing for the development of future products (or do you think they just have 10's of billions sitting around for this............... and not just to keep afloat). Lowered funds for development means that you will have even more to bitch about in the years to come.

 

Mistakes were made in the past............... and will continue to be made. However, many of you sound about as logical as my 3-year-old.

 

It sounds as though many of you would really just like to see Ford go out of business. After all, it would serve them right............... right??? For making some mistakes, and for trying to stem the tide of red ink. Geez, some of you sound as if you think they are a non profit organization.

 

I fully expect to get the crap beat out of me for this post. I do understand the uncertainty............... as those of us on the "outside" face it everyday. I understand the stress and anxiety of the unknown. But if some attitudes don't change, some of you are going to "stand your ground" right into the unemployment line.

 

First, no one wants Ford to go out of business. Yes, there will have to be concessions, although, I can't speak for all but many like myself who are hesitant to vote yes when all the facts are not known. I do not think it's asking to much for them to lay all the cards on the table before we're asked to slash our benefits.

 

I myself would be willing to give even more of what they ask if it went to product development and in getting better engineering support. Also more money towards the suppliers. We have to start producing the best values which boils down to quality.

 

There are alternatives, and I am almost ready for them. So if they're asking for money just to cut costs - the death spiral, then I say screw it.

[Len_A]

First, no one wants Ford to go out of business. Yes, there will have to be concessions, although, I can't speak for all but many like myself who are hesitant to vote yes when all the facts are not known. I do not think it's asking to much for them to lay all the cards on the table before we're asked to slash our benefits.

 

I myself would be willing to give even more of what they ask if it went to product development and in getting better engineering support. Also more money towards the suppliers. We have to start producing the best values which boils down to quality.

 

There are alternatives, and I am almost ready for them. So if they're asking for money just to cut costs - the death spiral, then I say screw it.

Well said, methos, well said. You made some really good points here, especially about what & where the money should go for.

[Glory_dayzd]

As far as benefits are concerned, I am sure that there are other, less significant benefits that we would be more than willing to do without. For instance, legal services (which seem to only cover wills anyway) and fitness centers that only a few use. If this is truely about cost cutting, why start with essential rather than non-essential benefits? I would think it is because of the future potential further cuts at contract time. Another consideration for health care might be to give us a choice regarding our benefits, a menu, so to speak, of benefits to choose from. Single people with no dependents don't need a full package. People who have false teeth don't need dental insurance... Married folks who both work at Ford only get one insurance package, so one of them is basically making less because they married a Ford employee. Maybe I am wrong, but there might be money being wasted by this 'one size fits all' deal. Or, maybe it is just our money being wasted...

Edited December 13, 2005 by Glory_dayzd

[No1Eman]

Amazing............... you people would cut off your nose to spite your face. :blink:

 

From an outsider, who ............. when we have insurance again (first of the year), will be paying way more than what is being asked of you (by probably 4-10X).............. you sound pathetic.

 

You wonder why the public has turned against the unions??? Hmmmmm, I wonder.

You wonder why many blame the unions for much of the problems the Domestics are having??? Hmmmmm, I wonder.

You wonder why we don't sypathize with you??? Hmmmm, I wonder.

 

If Ford does not get the Union concessions, Wallstreet will lower their bonds even further into junk status. This means Ford will have an even harder time borrowing for the development of future products (or do you think they just have 10's of billions sitting around for this............... and not just to keep afloat). Lowered funds for development means that you will have even more to bitch about in the years to come.

 

*****

 

It sounds as though many of you would really just like to see Ford go out of business. After all, it would serve them right............... right??? For making some mistakes, and for trying to stem the tide of red ink. Geez, some of you sound as if you think they are a non profit organization.

 

I fully expect to get the crap beat out of me for this post. I do understand the uncertainty............... as those of us on the "outside" face it everyday. I understand the stress and anxiety of the unknown. But if some attitudes don't change, some of you are going to "stand your ground" right into the unemployment line.

 

 

Yea sure, a buck an hour isn't much...if that is in fact what it proves to be. 40 bucks a week, maybe 52 bucks, if I work saturday...oh wait...thats 225.00 per month/ 2703.999999999 per year. Gee, thats maybe about as much as I put in my TESPHE, but now...I have to spend it on health care...plus, maybe my health care will be even more when I retire...And its only the beginning? Then they want to cut retirement benefits too? So now, I can't afford to put the same money into tesphe, because I gotta pay more for health care, then when the time comes I may or may not have a pension capable of doing what I thought it was going to do for the past 13 years. And at my cost, Billy and all the boys get to get a bonus..

 

Sure that sounds fair to me.

 

10s of billions? sure, 25 billion to be exact. Maybe, just maybe, if they want their credit rating to improve they will make some better business decisions...You see, market share, and future prospects are why their credit rating is going into the tank. Employee costs are constant. But sure, it makes perfect sense to me to suck it up, so they can close my plant, lay me off, and give themselves a nice big bonus for the effort.