NickF1011 Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 (edited) All I'm saying is, you can't say it's perfectly fine to overlap price points in one or multiple segments, but it's not possible in another. Just pointing out the hypocrisy. Well, you're also talking about considerably different sized segments. The entire compact truck market doesn't sell as well as just the Escape alone does. If it did, then there might be a much better argument to be made. I agree that the price overlap argument alone isn't enough to explain why the Ranger shouldn't be here, but it's just another piece of a much larger equation. Edited November 17, 2011 by NickF1011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moosetang Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 I wonder if Ford will open up its archives, eventually, to a writer that can explain what happened with Ford & Mazda. Wes over on GMI said it essentially boiled down to mazda chaffing under Ford management and Ford feeling the resources needed to keep Mazda unique and competitive were greater than the return they were getting from Mazda sales and sharing Mazda platforms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss444 Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 (edited) I think people are confusing "unique" for "dated". If the 1986 Taurus debuted as a new model today, it would sure look "unique" next to its contemporaries too. :shrug: I'm not so sure on that. "Unique" and "dated" are two different things. I think Ford is fully capable of making the Escape boxy and upright while being modern at the same time. Just because it's European doesn't mean it's modern. The new MKS is modern and it looks like a 14 year old Continental. Was the 2005 Mustang dated? And that is your personal opinion. Many people don't want/need the size, nor need the full capability of an F150. But they would like to have a smaller truck that is capable and decked out to the gills. The only reason I have a truck is to pull my Nautique. "Water ready" with trailer it weighs about 4K pounds (trailer is just under 1K). Do I need a full size truck? No, not at all...and if I had the opportunity to buy a smaller pickup with tons of features, I would in a heartbeat. The new 1/2 tons, from all manufactures are far too big. Edited November 17, 2011 by Boss444 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 Was the 2005 Mustang dated? The 2005 Mustang wasn't nearly as retro as people claim it to be. Sure, it harkens back to an older vehicle, but it was a thoroughly modern design. If they were to launch the 2005 today? Yes, it would be dated. The current Mustang body style is getting long in the tooth overall. It too better change dramatically in its next iteration or it may also be called outdated looking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss444 Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 The 2005 Mustang wasn't nearly as retro as people claim it to be. Sure, it harkens back to an older vehicle, but it was a thoroughly modern design And that's all I would have liked to see with the Escape...less Europe, more NA design language. By having more N/A design language, the Escape by default would have been more "tough" looking, but still modern. Like I said it's not bad, just too generic. Assuming the Escape had a 4500 pound tow rating, I would purchase the current version. I would not purchase the new one. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stpatrick90 Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 And that's all I would have liked to see with the Escape...less Europe, more NA design language. By having more N/A design language, the Escape by default would have been more "tough" looking, but still modern. Like I said it's not bad, just too generic. Assuming the Escape had a 4500 pound tow rating, I would purchase the current version. I would not purchase the new one. Well European design language is NA design language now...so when it comes to Ford Cars, CUVs, and SUVs they all most likely will use this new intercontinental design language. Trucks might be the only ones exempt from this and I feel that even they will showcase elements of this new design language - already evident in the T6 Ranger. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pioneer Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 What the hell...what does she have in it? My GF was 27K and about 24K after X plan and I think a 1K discount She has nearly everything in it but leather and navigation.. 2011 Tuxedo Black XLT sport. Rapid Spec 203A, 4wd, V6, trailer tow, premium sound, XLT Sport appearance package. Every available option. Before A-plan, stickered for $32,370. Added all season floor mats, bug deflector, and vent visors. I don't remember the exact price, but it was almost $33k before taxes. A-plan was around $29k. And it's not even a Limited. Only options it doesn't have is navigation and rear back-up sensors, which are not alvailable on an XLT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 ^^It certainly seems that way. I've always been a fan of Mazda (I even bought a brand new one back in '06!), I like their commitmet to racing and the way it flows into their development (zoom zoom dealio), love the way their cars drive and handle. It never seemed right to me that they split the way they did when Mazda was so involved with Ford's small to medium car offerings. I very much agree. Any good to great handling Ford vehicles we do have owe some gratitude to Mazda. I see that Mazda is going to come out with six new vehicles next few years. I wish them well. They certainly are the ZOOM ZOOM auto company and do have some expertise to offer Ford. Mazda is also bragging about doing all new engines...guess that means Ford and Mazda are going completely their own way in future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 (edited) 2011 Tuxedo Black XLT sport. Rapid Spec 203A, 4wd, V6, trailer tow, premium sound, XLT Sport appearance package. Every available option. Before A-plan, stickered for $32,370. Added all season floor mats, bug deflector, and vent visors. I don't remember the exact price, but it was almost $33k before taxes. A-plan was around $29k. And it's not even a Limited. Only options it doesn't have is navigation and rear back-up sensors, which are not alvailable on an XLT. interesting, I have 4wd hybrid here that are $33150. not the premium models though... Edited November 17, 2011 by Deanh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 I very much agree. Any good to great handling Ford vehicles we do have owe some gratitude to Mazda. I see that Mazda is going to come out with six new vehicles next few years. I wish them well. They certainly are the ZOOM ZOOM auto company and do have some expertise to offer Ford. Mazda is also bragging about doing all new engines...guess that means Ford and Mazda are going completely their own way in future. I like em, but based on a lot of hands on, that so called nimble-ness comes with an expense.....slightly bump thumpy ride and road noise.....funny, all the mags bitch about domestics being overweight compared with the imports, yet they all remark on either or/ and road and engine noise....interesting they consistantly fail to put two and two together... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrewfanGRB Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 I think there certainly will be creep on the top-end prices and I have a feeling a fully-loaded, every possible option (AWD, MFT, power lift gate) will probably push $38k. It really probably depends on how they choose to bundle the options w/ the trim levels. If the Ti comes w/ MFT and all the convenience options and they push this so top end vehicles become volume sellers, I could see it maybe at $36k. The one thing that hurts holding the line w/ pricing similar to the current model is there are lots of newly available features--it's hard to imagine the most expensive '13 Escape being similar in price to the most expensive '12. On the other hand, the supposed economies of scale that One Ford affords the company the ability to maintain competitive pricing others can't match (i.e., give the new, advanced features for only a little more than beofore). It'll be interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 I wonder if Ford will open up its archives, eventually, to a writer that can explain what happened with Ford & Mazda. I do think Ford knows ! It has a lot to do with the differences between US businesses and Japanese businesses Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 I do think Ford knows ! It has a lot to do with the differences between US businesses and Japanese businesses I did notice none of the ford honchos are missing fingers..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 I very much agree. Any good to great handling Ford vehicles we do have owe some gratitude to Mazda. I see that Mazda is going to come out with six new vehicles next few years. I wish them well. They certainly are the ZOOM ZOOM auto company and do have some expertise to offer Ford. Mazda is also bragging about doing all new engines...guess that means Ford and Mazda are going completely their own way in future. Isn't that great? Without Ford's obstruction, maybe they can finally make the rotary run right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 Any good to great handling Ford vehicles we do have owe some gratitude to Mazda. Jackie Stewart deserves more credit than Mazda for the handling/steering performance of Ford vehicles http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=19795 “Just because you’re a good engineer doesn’t make you a good driver or vehicle dynamics analyst,” he said. “And just because you’re a good racing driver doesn’t make you a good analyst or communicator. I was fortunate to have the right combination and be able to share my capabilities with many Ford engineers. That certainly will be one of my most lasting contributions.” http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1989-02-16/business/8903050837_1_goodyear-tire-ford-motor-racing One of the reasons he is in town is to drive a prototype of a future version of the most recent Thunderbird, which he has overseen since it was on paper. After the interview, Stewart will head to the Ford test track to sample the car in its latest incarnation and evaluate a new suspension and tire-wheel combination. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3012/is_9_179/ai_55983754/ Ford appears to be unique in the industry in its use of OMI training. Since starting the program in '94, the automaker has moved into a special, semi-secret training "camp" in the northern Michigan town of Oscoda. The facility there, a former Air Force base, is actually run by Stewart Grand Prix (Jackie's company) and has handling and ride modules -- with different levels of training and annual refresher courses. Everyone who rotates through OMI can repeat a module if they choose. When Hau Thai-Tang talks about "tuning" an engineer, he really means knowing what to tune in, and what to tune out of your own sensors while evaluating a vehicle.... "Jackie asks us, `Can you feel the difference and nail the root cause?" Thai-Tang says. If you can, you learned OMI's three key points: You have to be repeatable (eliminate driver error from the equation); you have to augment your subjective impressions with objective data; and you must rule out all distractions using what you're most sensitive to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biker16 Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 Jackie Stewart deserves more credit than Mazda for the handling/steering performance of Ford vehicles http://media.ford.co...rticle_id=19795 http://articles.chic...rd-motor-racing http://findarticles....79/ai_55983754/ lets not forget Sir Richard Aprry Jones, who was integral to that program. I feel fords Are hands down better drivers cars than Mazdas of equal sophistication. there is something about the steering feel of ford's cars. it is the real ZOOM ZOOM. I think mazda is more pure about their interpretation of performance, Thus more wind and road noise, quicker steering, rougher ride., etc. the mazda2 Vs the fiesta is a great example of this, where the mazda is a go kart with 105hp, small tires, light weight and poor NVH, while the fiesta is more mature, with better overall performance, and more livability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captainp4 Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 I like em, but based on a lot of hands on, that so called nimble-ness comes with an expense.....slightly bump thumpy ride and road noise.....funny, all the mags bitch about domestics being overweight compared with the imports, yet they all remark on either or/ and road and engine noise....interesting they consistantly fail to put two and two together... That was certainly true with the mazda3 I had, then I added summer performance tires and lowered it.. I could count the pebbles on the road, but it was the best handling vehicle I've ever driven. I didn't much mind the ride/noise, as you can see from my other vehicles, they're all trucks, so it still rode better and was quieter than them! Road noise on longer highway trips when you got up to 75+ on the highway got old after a while though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss444 Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 Well European design language is NA design language now.. And that is a damn shame. The European models are nice...for Europe. N/A is a big enough market to justify our own, unique skins....I think anyway. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss444 Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 Well European design language is NA design language now.. And that is a damn shame. The European models are nice...for Europe. N/A is a big enough market to justify our own, unique skins....I think anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stpatrick90 Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 And that is a damn shame. The European models are nice...for Europe. N/A is a big enough market to justify our own, unique skins....I think anyway. Maybe it is a shame for you but I feel like a lot of us like it. I wouldn't have even thought about buying the previous Escape but now the new one I could definitely see myself purchasing - if only it could tow more than 3500 pounds or my boat weighed less. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
probowler Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 (edited) Maybe it is a shame for you but I feel like a lot of us like it. I wouldn't have even thought about buying the previous Escape but now the new one I could definitely see myself purchasing - if only it could tow more than 3500 pounds or my boat weighed less. And a lot of us don't, congratulations Ford, a lot of us who would have bought the previous escape now won't buy this one. Let the Socialists over there keep their euro-trash. Edited November 18, 2011 by probowler 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 (edited) And that's all I would have liked to see with the Escape...less Europe, more NA design language. By having more N/A design language, the Escape by default would have been more "tough" looking, but still modern. Like I said it's not bad, just too generic. Assuming the Escape had a 4500 pound tow rating, I would purchase the current version. I would not purchase the new one. Thing to keep in mind here is that this vehicle needs to appeal globally, not just in the U.S., so overdone "American" language with lots of chrome and boxy edges may not have done it elsewhere. Recall how well the Maverick sold in Europe? And that is a damn shame. The European models are nice...for Europe. N/A is a big enough market to justify our own, unique skins....I think anyway. Skins perhaps. Completely unique subframes and greenhouses (which would be needed to design it how you would prefer)? Probably not. Edited November 18, 2011 by NickF1011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkisler Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 Jackie Stewart deserves more credit than Mazda for the handling/steering performance of Ford vehicles Jackie Stewart did have some influence on the handling performance of Ford vehicles, but it's really hard to judge how much. He was very rough in his clinics and spared no mercy on even the most minor issues if he was upset. On one occasion, I was in the car with him when he was debriefing and Engineering Director about the drive of a newly-introduced car. There was a light mist; the car was idling; the interval wipers were going. And in typical Ford fashion at the time -- due in part to buying the cheapest rubbber blades they could find -- they were going "screech, screech, screech" everytime they swiped. Jackie's face turned redder and redder during the debrief, until he finally said "Do you know how f****ing irrating those f***ing wipers are? Don't you think the customers will notice?" I tried to supress a smile in the back seat because he had just hit on one of my pet peeves. And, as we've found out with MyFordTouch, irritants can affect the customer's perception of the quality of the total vehicle. But despite the tough reviews, when an outside consultant is trying to pass his expertise, it doesn't often translate into positive action inside the company. His commentary didn't result in formalized actions that can be spread across the board, but rather specific actions on a specific product. You really need someone who is in an operating position inside the company to stand up and make the difference. Better yet if the person has cost and profit responsibility. I support Biker's contention that Richard Parry-Jones was very influental. He was exceptionally well versed technically, really had a total "backside feel" for exactly what a car was doing, and formalized -- first in Europe and then in NA when he was promoted -- Ford signature handling. He did it by driving those values into the teams, and developing objective methods to measure things which might ordinarily be considered subjective. And he pushed hard to get what he wanted; with his VP stripes, he often won. I think we are seeing his legacy now. But.....because Richard was a perfectionist, he sometimes pushed too hard for hardware that might have made a difference to him, but had absolutely no impact whatsoever on the customer. In other words, some of the hardware changes he pushed for were money wasted. At any rate, Ford cars are certainly better drivers than they used to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svtenthusiast Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 When I first looked at this, I thought the front looked too much like the focus. I think I am liking the design and would like to see it in person. However I wish they would of changed some of the switchgear (or at least the gauges) to not be the same as the Focus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svtenthusiast Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 Does anyone know when the order guide will be out and when the order banks open? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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