Ralph Greene Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 We recently bought an Edge Limited. Chose this over an almost standard MKX. Just didn't see the value in the name "Lincoln" for $8,000 to $10,000 more dollars (or seats with AC). Also afraid of owning a vehicle that may go away in a few years. Sold a 2005 Mecury Montego Premere. Maybe best car I ever owned. But Ford abandoned the vehicle after changing it's name. Didn't help it's value doing that. Lincoln may kill it's self with all the talk. Howevr....my wife much prefers dealing with the Lincoln dealeship for service. They still have that. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buyacargetachec Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 At a dealer meeting this past summer. They were also told sales should increase 300 to 400 percent within 4 years provided the dealers revamp their showrooms. http://www.leftlanenews.com/ford-to-drop-1b-on-last-chance-lincoln-turnaround-efforts.html Where did Ford say that they were only ever going to spend $1B? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buyacargetachec Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 The Ford products are every bit as good and buyers know this. They have to be because the mainstream brand competition is heavy. I wanted to like the MKZ I drove, but I couldn't justify why anyone would spend $5,000 more than a V6 Camry. And the seats were kind of hard. Not what a luxury car should be. We recently bought an Edge Limited. Chose this over an almost standard MKX. Just didn't see the value in the name "Lincoln" for $8,000 to $10,000 more dollars (or seats with AC). Also afraid of owning a vehicle that may go away in a few years. Sold a 2005 Mecury Montego Premere. Maybe best car I ever owned. But Ford abandoned the vehicle after changing it's name. Didn't help it's value doing that. Lincoln may kill it's self with all the talk. Howevr....my wife much prefers dealing with the Lincoln dealeship for service. They still have that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 The Ford products are every bit as good and buyers know this. They have to be because the mainstream brand competition is heavy. I wanted to like the MKZ I drove, but I couldn't justify why anyone would spend $5,000 more than a V6 Camry. And the seats were kind of hard. Not what a luxury car should be. Seats are supposed to be firm - that offers the best support and are most comfortable over the life of the vehicle. If you want sofa cushions go buy a Buick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 At a dealer meeting this past summer. They were also told sales should increase 300 to 400 percent within 4 years provided the dealers revamp their showrooms. http://www.leftlanenews.com/ford-to-drop-1b-on-last-chance-lincoln-turnaround-efforts.html Where does it say they won't ever spend more than that? That's just the initial investment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buyacargetachec Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Based on the article, Ford sees this Lincoln investment (along with the dealer cuts) as successful if sales hit 162,000 by 2015. Lincoln model sales have, at best, been running at about 20% of the comparable Ford model they're based on. If we assume that the seven "new or refreshed" models are the MKS, MKT, MKZ, MKZ Hybrid, MKX, Navigator and Escape-based CUV then the new MKZs and Escape-based CUV will have to do the heavy lifting in order to get to that 162K number. That's a tall order. Based on 2011 Ford sales, even at 20%, Lincoln sales would only reach about 150,000 units. AND, that's assuming the new Escape sells as well as the current one (unlikely given Ford's price increases on new vehicles of late). The new Escape-based CUV would have to sell about 40,000 units to meet the target. But, Ford may also be banking on much better industry sales by 2015 (rising tide lifts all boats). It may not be a stretch to say that if the new Escape-based CUV is a bust then Lincoln is a goner. 2011 sales: MKZ 27,529 11% of Fusion sales MKX 23,395 19% of Edge sales MKS 12,217 19% of Taurus sales MKT 5,024 18% of Flex sales Navigator 8,018 20% of Expedition sales TOTAL 76,183 Where does it say they won't ever spend more than that? That's just the initial investment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Based on the article, Ford sees this Lincoln investment (along with the dealer cuts) as successful if sales hit 162,000 by 2015. Lincoln model sales have, at best, been running at about 20% of the comparable Ford model they're based on. If we assume that the seven "new or refreshed" models are the MKS, MKT, MKZ, MKZ Hybrid, MKX, Navigator and Escape-based CUV then the new MKZs and Escape-based CUV will have to do the heavy lifting in order to get to that 162K number. That's a tall order. Based on 2011 Ford sales, even at 20%, Lincoln sales would only reach about 150,000 units. AND, that's assuming the new Escape sells as well as the current one (unlikely given Ford's price increases on new vehicles of late). The new Escape-based CUV would have to sell about 40,000 units to meet the target. But, Ford may also be banking on much better industry sales by 2015 (rising tide lifts all boats). It may not be a stretch to say that if the new Escape-based CUV is a bust then Lincoln is a goner. 2011 sales: MKZ 27,529 11% of Fusion sales MKX 23,395 19% of Edge sales MKS 12,217 19% of Taurus sales MKT 5,024 18% of Flex sales Navigator 8,018 20% of Expedition sales TOTAL 76,183 You're assuming that the new Lincolns will be the same as the old Lincolns so the same sales percentage would apply. That's a terrible assumption since we know the new Lincolns will be totally different going forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sullynd Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Buick's products don't line up perfectly with Lincoln's, but it's probably the LaCrosse as much as the Regal that's competing against the MKZ. Buick markets it heavily against the Lexus ES, which is probably the closest thing to the MKZ -- a comfort/luxury-focused front-drive midsizer. The Regal is in more of the Acura TSX niche for its four-cylinder. You mean the Lacrosse with the standard 4 cylinder 180 hp engine and optional 300 hp V6 versus the MKS standard 300 hp V6 and optional 350 hp V6? Bzzttt.......try again. Am I missing where he compared the LuCrosse to the MkS? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Am I missing where he compared the LuCrosse to the MkS? Oops - I thought he was comparing the LaCrosse to the MKS. Buick does on their website and it's closer to MKS. Regal is closer to mid-sized. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 "It will take every ounce of our energy to execute Lincoln in North America," says Jim Farley, Ford's global sales chief. That's a pretty tall order. It's not just about the vehicles. CEO Alan Mulally has said he expects them to be on par with the best from Mercedes-Benz; Lexus and BMW, yet Ford still intends to share chassis with its mainstream Ford Division. Rather, according to Farley, the tougher part may be coaxing dealers to go all-out for customers. "The secret sauce to Lexus was the personal touch," says Farley, a Toyota/Lexus veteran. It's about tiny things that make a huge impact on customers, like putting a rose on the seat after bringing cars back for a recall repair or making sure every car is washed after servicing. Because customers aren't particularly keen on Lincoln, unless maybe they are retired and living in Florida. "I don't think we're relevant to the core luxury customer," Farley acknowledges. "You have to wake up to the market."... "...Farley says he isn't going to court the obvious luxury targets, Type-A males who are successful in business. Rather, he going go after a demographic he calls "the magician" -- trend-setting creatives who live on the coasts. They are more open to change and will buy the best, or at least most interesting, car regardless of what others think...." USA Today Farley really needs to tone down the overly dramatic, poorly chosen rhetoric. I used to think that Farly had a shot at CEO, but I don't anymore. He is like a shotgun with his mouth and some of his quotes above are a good example of it. Mulally must cringe reading those quotes. There are lots of competent competitors out there, and pissing off important segments of your customer base with your big mouth is not particulary well advised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Based on the article, Ford sees this Lincoln investment (along with the dealer cuts) as successful if sales hit 162,000 by 2015. Lincoln model sales have, at best, been running at about 20% of the comparable Ford model they're based on. If we assume that the seven "new or refreshed" models are the MKS, MKT, MKZ, MKZ Hybrid, MKX, Navigator and Escape-based CUV then the new MKZs and Escape-based CUV will have to do the heavy lifting in order to get to that 162K number. That's a tall order. Based on 2011 Ford sales, even at 20%, Lincoln sales would only reach about 150,000 units. AND, that's assuming the new Escape sells as well as the current one (unlikely given Ford's price increases on new vehicles of late). The new Escape-based CUV would have to sell about 40,000 units to meet the target. But, Ford may also be banking on much better industry sales by 2015 (rising tide lifts all boats). It may not be a stretch to say that if the new Escape-based CUV is a bust then Lincoln is a goner. 2011 sales: MKZ 27,529 11% of Fusion sales MKX 23,395 19% of Edge sales MKS 12,217 19% of Taurus sales MKT 5,024 18% of Flex sales Navigator 8,018 20% of Expedition sales TOTAL 76,183 So Lincoln has FIVE products now and sells in 75,000/year range with overall luxury sales going up for the foreseeable future. Lincoln has said it will have SEVEN new and improved products over next couple years. I would imagine that both of the new products will be CUV/SUV in origin. So 150,000/year in sales is not a stretch considering Navigator and probably another vehicle will be improved further over next couple years. However, to get to 200,000 vehicle or more it will take much more investment and one or two more premium, uniqe vehicles along with keeping the seven current and competitive. That will take some big bucks. Much more than the $1 billion planned so far. I personally would like to see one unique Lincoln platform and have no problem with rest using Ford architecture as long as Lincoln is allowed to create its own distinctive brand as in being given the budget to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2b2 Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 So Lincoln has FIVE products now and sells in 75,000/year range with overall luxury sales going up for the foreseeable future. Lincoln has said it will have SEVEN new and improved products over next couple years... ...That will take some big bucks. Much more than the $1 billion planned so far... ...to create its own distinctive brand as in being given the budget to do so. imho the problem has been that Lincoln's vehicles haven't been the most eye catching ex: the MKS when she first came out & from certain angles she looked pretty good but what excitement there was has faded - - like a girl with a great personality (& smart as a whip) who doesn't doesn't turn me on dunno if the new production Z will have that drool factor the concept doesn't - for me so I'm more uncertain about the styling approval process than anything in engineering - - that "ribcage" grille AMAZED the execs??? that^ worries me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph Greene Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) In todays world, a premium priced car needs something special going for it. More than just the prestige of saying I can afford this vehicle. More than just a plush interior....my Limited Edge has a nice interior. More than an EB engine. Why do BMW loyalists keep buying 5 and 7 series BMW's. (3 series don't count. Secretaries can buy those). What is that "thing" they have? I have driven a 5 series a lot, they do drive special. And they are no more reliable than a Focus.....so it's not reliability. I don't think it's resale value either. It's not snob appeal either....there are a lot of cars more expensive. But I think that's the level of car the MKZ needs to aim at to get the markets attention. Or aim at new Lexus GS 350, Infinity M 37, E series Mercedes, etc. Build a fancy Fusion.....why buy the Lincoln? And it takes more than MFT to make the difference. We recently chose a Limited Edge over the MKX. Just couldn't see how the Lincoln was worth all those extra dollars. Edited January 26, 2012 by Ralph Greene Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 In todays world, a premium priced car needs something special going for it. More than just the prestige of saying I can afford this vehicle. More than just a plush interior....my Limited Edge has a nice interior. More than an EB engine. Why do BMW loyalists keep buying 5 and 7 series BMW's. (3 series don't count. Secretaries can buy those). What is that "thing" they have? I have driven a 5 series a lot, they do drive special. And they are no more reliable than a Focus.....so it's not reliability. I don't think it's resale value either. It's not snob appeal either....there are a lot of cars more expensive. But I think that's the level of car the MKZ needs to aim at to get the markets attention. Or aim at new Lexus GS 350, Infinity M 37, E series Mercedes, etc. Build a fancy Fusion.....why buy the Lincoln? And it takes more than MFT to make the difference. We recently chose a Limited Edge over the MKX. Just couldn't see how the Lincoln was worth all those extra dollars. They're aiming at Audi, Lexus and Cadillac according to Wolf. They don't need to take on BMW and MB right away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 They're aiming at Audi, Lexus and Cadillac according to Wolf. They don't need to take on BMW and MB right away. Sales wise, at least in 2010 and before, Lexus sales were with MB and BMW in 200,000+ range/year, not down a rung or two with Cadillac and Audi is more in Lincoln sales territory in U.S. I think Lincoln has a shot at being in Cadillac sales territory in a few years when its seven new and improved vehicles are out and about. The top three luxury makers including Lexus are beyond reach with investment Ford has announced so far for Lincoln. Another couple a billion and a few more years after that, maybe. As a shareholder and Ford fan, I will be happy if Ford just makes Lincoln viable again and keeps it that way. In fact, I'd probably be a little nervous if Ford went out and spent another boat load of money on Lincoln like Cadillac did affecting its bottom line for years to come just to get to 200,000+ luxury sales/year. Lincoln should be able to make good profit on 150,000 sales/year with good ATP's. Also keeping the portfiolio to 7 vehicles only so that keeping them competitive doesn't take billions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Car Examiner Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 You mean the Lacrosse with the standard 4 cylinder 180 hp engine and optional 300 hp V6 versus the MKS standard 300 hp V6 and optional 350 hp V6? Bzzttt.......try again. I mean the LaCrosse whose hybrid four-cylinder and gas V6 lines up with the MKZ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 I mean the LaCrosse whose hybrid four-cylinder and gas V6 lines up with the MKZ. So why does Buick compare the LaCrosse with the MKS? And what does the Regal compete with if not the MKZ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Car Examiner Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 So why does Buick compare the LaCrosse with the MKS? And what does the Regal compete with if not the MKZ? Really, the closest thing in the Ford lineup to the LaCrosse is the Taurus, but because it markets the thing so heavily against the Lexus ES, the MKZ is another logical competitor. The Regal conceivably could be an MKZ competitor as well. Buick is just trying to match its lineup against a lineup that doesn't match. It doesn't sell an MKS competitor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buyacargetachec Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 And yet the LaCrosse outsold the MKS and the MKZ combined 54,000 to 40,000. Why? Maybe it's because the MKS costs about $10,000 more yet offers about the same luxury look, feel, features and power to weight ratio as the less expensive LaCrosse. Sure, the MKS is a little bigger on paper but not appreciably so in person. If Lincoln wants to increase sales with the current lineup, the prices need to come down. I'd really like to see Lincoln abandon this strategy of making seven versions of Fords and stick with the traditional 3 car lineup, two of which could be based on the Mustang. Maybe a long, sharp-edged muscular Hybrid V8 4-door Continental Town Car (like the 300 but with a longer hood). A style statement for independent thinkers. Then a CUV based on the sedan. Same powertrain. Keep the Navigator. Bring back the Parthenon grill. Supremely comfortable and stylish interior. No corresponding 4-door or CUV Mustang with the blue oval on it. Even if they only sell 50K per year total at least Lincoln would be unique. Buick is just trying to match its lineup against a lineup that doesn't match. It doesn't sell an MKS competitor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 And yet the LaCrosse outsold the MKS and the MKZ combined 54,000 to 40,000. Why? Maybe it's because the MKS costs about $10,000 more yet offers about the same luxury look, feel, features and power to weight ratio as the less expensive LaCrosse. Sure, the MKS is a little bigger on paper but not appreciably so in person. If Lincoln wants to increase sales with the current lineup, the prices need to come down. I'd really like to see Lincoln abandon this strategy of making seven versions of Fords and stick with the traditional 3 car lineup, two of which could be based on the Mustang. Maybe a long, sharp-edged muscular Hybrid V8 4-door Continental Town Car (like the 300 but with a longer hood). A style statement for independent thinkers. Then a CUV based on the sedan. Same powertrain. Keep the Navigator. Bring back the Parthenon grill. Supremely comfortable and stylish interior. No corresponding 4-door or CUV Mustang with the blue oval on it. Even if they only sell 50K per year total at least Lincoln would be unique. Cheaper cars will always outsell more expensive cars especially if the difference is $10K. Ford could drop the price on the MKS and sell a lot more but that would defeat the purpose long term. Ford would rather keep the prices higher and sell fewer vehicles (to a point). They really don't care that much until the new one debuts in a year or two. Until then it's a lame duck anyway. Lincoln sharing Ford platforms is bad unless it's a RWD platform? Puh-lease.............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT500george Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 I would like to see a remake of the Lincoln Mark III. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBirdStangSkyliner Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Acura's strategy was going great until it branched out to include disastrous styling experiments. I'd say that Lexus and Infiniti had sucked much of the wind out of Acura's sails before the "styling experiments" punched a hole through its hull. Some board members don't seem to think that there is room and ability for Lincoln to compete in the RWD luxury game. I don't see where there is room and much more ability for Lincoln to compete better in the FWD, near luxury game. This class of buyers seem to think that the World begins and ends in Japan. With the dominance of Lexus, there isn't enough room for all of the Japanese brands to flourish at this game. I'm betting that more Lexus buyers would be willing to cross-shop Acura than Lincoln. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBirdStangSkyliner Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Farley really needs to tone down the overly dramatic, poorly chosen rhetoric. I used to think that Farly had a shot at CEO, but I don't anymore. He is like a shotgun with his mouth and some of his quotes above are a good example of it. Mulally must cringe reading those quotes. There are lots of competent competitors out there, and pissing off important segments of your customer base with your big mouth is not particulary well advised. Another thing Ford and especially Farley need to stop doing, in my opinion, is harping about the dealership experience. They need to concentrate on making class-leading cars and get this message out. It is easier to beat up the dealers and force or coerce them to spend more money, than it is for the company to make the real investment necessary to get the Lincoln product line up to snuff. The reality is, though, that people just aren't going to slurp-up MKT's because of any services which can be legally offerred at the dealerships. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Another thing Ford and especially Farley need to stop doing, in my opinion, is harping about the dealership experience. They need to concentrate on making class-leading cars and get this message out. It is easier to beat up the dealers and force or coerce them to spend more money, than it is for the company to make the real investment necessary to get the Lincoln product line up to snuff. The reality is, though, that people just aren't going to slurp-up MKT's because of any services which can be legally offerred at the dealerships. They are making class-leading cars - just not the ones you want them to make. You're not the entire market. And when the competition is so tight and the average buyer isn't a gearhead like you the dealership experience DOES matter. Buyers who have a bad experience with a Ford dealer will walk away from the brand entirely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retro-man Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Buyers who have a bad experience with a Ford dealer will walk away from the brand entirely. My ears are burning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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