Autonews.com Fusion wagon? In Europe, yes, but not here

[LincolnV]

On the ford.co.uk website I just built a Mondeo Estate, Titanium, 1.6L, Driver Assistance Pack 2, (BLIS, lane departure, adaptive cruise...) chrome roof rails and upgraded Sony system and it priced out at 27,450 Pounds or $44,388, ouch, that's pricey.

 

Everything in the UK is outrageously expensive - including a gallon of gas. I went onto the Ford.uk website and priced a fully loaded Focus Titanium which came out to $42,000 U.S.

[GTwannabe]

On the ford.co.uk website I just built a Mondeo Estate, Titanium, 1.6L, Driver Assistance Pack 2, (BLIS, lane departure, adaptive cruise...) chrome roof rails and upgraded Sony system and it priced out at 27,450 Pounds or $44,388, ouch, that's pricey.

 

Meh... look at what Canadians pay for pickup trucks. Easily $10k more than the same model in the US.

[LincolnV]

Meh... look at what Canadians pay for pickup trucks. Easily $10k more than the same model in the US.

 

Ford Edge/Lincoln MKX - made in Ontario and more expensive to buy here even though our dollar has been hovering above parity with the U.S. dollar for a while now.

Edited April 26, 2012 by LincolnV

[FordBuyer]

Without the European market requiring a hatch back focus and fiesta to be developed, Ford like Honda and Toyota would not be able to offer a hatchback version of the Focus.

 

The problem with these companies they rely on really advanced statistical analysis to make alot of decisions, this sometimes is unable to detect changes in market preferences, that sometime a human with a good feel for the marketplace can.

 

you have to attack on the margins of the market place where you have a strategic advantage, with "One Ford" ford can afford to enter segments that other cannot. wagons are an opportunity for Ford, not a risk.

 

I love it. above statement by Biker should be theme of this thread....FORD CAN AFFORD TO ENTER SEGMENTS THAT OTHERS CANNOT....WAGONS ARE AN OPPORTUNITY FOR FORD, NOT A RISK. Field the other day stated that Ford will lose market share this year because it just doesn't have the production capacity to keep up with North American demand. A good motivator to retool AAI as soon as Mazda leaves and offer more than one body type on Fusion and give Oakville more product to max out capacity. Ford doesn't have that many plants left anymore in N.A., especially with St. Thomas and now Twin Cities gone for good. If this economic recoverty has legs and lasts a decade or so, Ford will need to think about building another plant in midwest hopefully.

[RichardJensen]

With single side stamping, there is no way that doing a wagon is cheap.

[stpatrick90]

Ford Edge/Lincoln MKX - made in Ontario and more expensive to buy here even though our dollar has been hovering above parity with the U.S. dollar for a while now.

 

Don't give the Canadian dollar too much credit, for the last 3 or so months it has been on average slightly below parity. 2011 onward the USD has generally held stronger value to the CAD despite a few month period late last year where the CAD was above parity slightly.

[MKII]

I love it. above statement by Biker should be theme of this thread....FORD CAN AFFORD TO ENTER SEGMENTS THAT OTHERS CANNOT....WAGONS ARE AN OPPORTUNITY FOR FORD, NOT A RISK. Field the other day stated that Ford will lose market share this year because it just doesn't have the production capacity to keep up with North American demand. A good motivator to retool AAI as soon as Mazda leaves and offer more than one body type on Fusion and give Oakville more product to max out capacity. Ford doesn't have that many plants left anymore in N.A., especially with St. Thomas and now Twin Cities gone for good. If this economic recoverty has legs and lasts a decade or so, Ford will need to think about building another plant in midwest hopefully.

 

“Our Louisville Assembly Plant transformation further proves our commitment to American manufacturing and our commitment to deliver the high-quality, fuel-efficient vehicles people really want,” said Mark Fields, Ford’s president of The Americas. Reprogrammable tooling in the body shop will allow the plant to produce multiple vehicle models at the same time without requiring downtime for tooling changeover – making Louisville Assembly Plant Ford’s most flexible high-volume plant in the world.

With this new technology, Louisville Assembly can build up to six different vehicles at the same time, allowing Ford to meet demand more quickly in the event of potential shifting customer preferences dictated by changing economic conditions. “While we are launching Louisville Assembly Plant with one key product – the next-generation Ford Escape – we are building in the flexibility to produce other vehicles at the plant in the future, depending upon volume requirements, customer preferences and other factors that affect vehicle demand.”

Whatever "can build six different vehicles" really means.Ford sure does use the clause "customer preferences" alot in all media arenas.

 

Regarding RJ's comment on single stamping being a negative towards making a business case for the Fusion wagon. Can Austin (who seems to know from his work experience) comment on this expense. And also with the new Fusion design work being done in North America, was this process only on the sedan or would the 2 other variants (wagon & hatch) design work be done at the same time. Or are these 2 other variant design processes only done at Ford Europe?

And if the wagon and hatch design work was delegated to Ford Europe, wouldn't this be a negative towards cost effective design work.One would think for cost effectiveness all the design work for all 3 variants would be done at the same place and same time yes,no?Or is this cost savings global commonality of bits and pieces mentioned all the time in Ford media releases which supposedly is supposed to equal affordable cars for all consumers, a bunch of huey and really does not save the company real money and in this case still make adding a wagon or hatch variant of the Fusion a losing proposition.

Edited April 26, 2012 by MKII

[RichardJensen]

It doesn't matter where the work was done.

 

Costs are assessed and amortized based on projected volumes in the various sales units. For instance, 100% of work done in Dearborn for a vehicle sold only in Europe would be 100% billed to Ford's European sales organization.

 

Also, the key difference between bringing the Fiesta hatch to the US was that the Fiesta hatch was already being assembled for Central and South America at Cuautitlan, therefore there was no need to purchase a second set of dies.

 

I would venture to guess that the tooling required to support a wagon would be maybe half to two-thirds the cost of the MKZ's tooling--but that's just SWAG based on unique panels & structure--without carrying a commensurate increase in transaction price.

Edited April 26, 2012 by RichardJensen

[jpd80]

And Biker's next question will most likely be:

 

So why couldn't you import the unique wagon (and Hatchback) stampings from Europe and assemble them in the US?

 

Importing pre-stamped parts for low run variants, is it a worthwhile endeavor or stick with one body type?

[RichardJensen]

I think if you're talking about importing stampings, it's probably more cost effective just to import the whole dang vehicle, in which case, you're now looking at shipping NA-specific parts over to Europe.

[RichardJensen]

Given time, it's possible that CUVs will become more wagonlike, but I'll flip this around: If the 'utility vehicle' had been invented in the 50s or 60s, station wagons would've died off then, rather than more recently. If you have a family, there's no comparison as far as loading, unloading and cargo space, when you've got that tall two-box layout, plus the tall box makes that 3rd row more palatable than the 'wayback' rear facing jump seat that was commonly seen in wagons.

 

I can't imagine any of my immediate family switching to wagons by choice, although I personally wouldn't mind one.

[LincolnV]

If the 'utility vehicle' had been invented in the 50s or 60s, station wagons would've died off then, rather than more recently.

 

I think part of the reason wagons didn't die off so quickly is because of Ford.

 

I think the segment was rejuvenated when Ford made the wagon "cool" with the introduction of the '86 Taurus. I always thought it was a better looking vehicle than it's sedan counterpart and they sold a ton of them.

Edited April 26, 2012 by LincolnV

[FordBuyer]

I think part of the recent wagons didn't die off so quickly is because of Ford.

 

I think the segment was rejuvenated when Ford made the wagon "cool" with the introduction of the '86 Taurus. I always thought it was a better looking vehicle than it's sedan counterpart and they sold a ton of them.

 

No question about it...the late 80's Sable/Taurus wagon was one of the best looking vehicles Ford has ever designed. No one has come close before or since except for some European designs. BMW has just announced that it's new 3 Series will eventually get convertible and wagon body styles coming probably next year to states. Starting price in mid $30,000 for sedan and coupe, don't know about wagon and convertible.

[aneekr]

I think part of the reason wagons didn't die off so quickly is because of Ford.

 

I think the segment was rejuvenated when Ford made the wagon "cool" with the introduction of the '86 Taurus. I always thought it was a better looking vehicle than it's sedan counterpart and they sold a ton of them.

No question about it...the late 80's Sable/Taurus wagon was one of the best looking vehicles Ford has ever designed. No one has come close before or since except for some European designs. BMW has just announced that it's new 3 Series will eventually get convertible and wagon body styles coming probably next year to states. Starting price in mid $30,000 for sedan and coupe, don't know about wagon and convertible.

 

:yup:

If the Mk4 Mondeo photographed in Biker16's post #87 is any indication, Ford has preserved its tradition of designing stylish wagons. Just not for the North American market, unfortunately.

[Biker16]

With single side stamping, there is no way that doing a wagon is cheap.

 

how much is a single side stamping Richard?

 

how much does it cost?

 

you can't say it's not cheap if you Don't know the cost?

[Biker16]

And Biker's next question will most likely be:

 

So why couldn't you import the unique wagon (and Hatchback) stampings from Europe and assemble them in the US?

 

Importing pre-stamped parts for low run variants, is it a worthwhile endeavor or stick with one body type?

 

the question is, is it cheaper to ship the part than to pay for the tooling to make the part here.

 

A $2000, premium over the sedan on 30,000 units per year would raise $300,000,000 to pay for the cost of buying new dies, and all the other stuff that you gentleman can think of.

 

 

I think if you're talking about importing stampings, it's probably more cost effective just to import the whole dang vehicle, in which case, you're now looking at shipping NA-specific parts over to Europe.

 

If it cheaper to do that , than do it. It all depends on the costs of buying dies and importing specific parts vs importing the vehicle.

Edited April 27, 2012 by Biker16

[Hugh]

Really Biker, you can go on and on but one fact remains. As of now, Ford will not bring wagons here to NA. Hatchbacks and Wagons are not the same thing whatever your opinion is. CUV's appear to be more practical then a sedan based wagon. Just my opinion, if Taurus still had a wagon option opposed to Flex and Explorer, I feel it wouldn't sell. Fight the fight as you see fit, you're not convincing anyone of authority.

[Biker16]

Really Biker, you can go on and on but one fact remains. As of now, Ford will not bring wagons here to NA. Hatchbacks and Wagons are not the same thing whatever your opinion is. CUV's appear to be more practical then a sedan based wagon. Just my opinion, if Taurus still had a wagon option opposed to Flex and Explorer, I feel it wouldn't sell. Fight the fight as you see fit, you're not convincing anyone of authority.

 

I am sorry you feel that way. if you noticed even RJ says he wouldn't mind a Wagon.

 

there is demand out there for an attractive wagon.

[Hugh]

I am sorry you feel that way. if you noticed even RJ says he wouldn't mind a Wagon.

 

there is demand out there for an attractive wagon.

I agree there are attractive wagons and I'm sure there's demand. In the end, people who have cash to buy begs the question: Wagon or CUV? Right now, it's CUV. Perhaps the next generation who's parents drove CUV's will look at the next big thing.

[RichardJensen]

I am sorry you feel that way. if you noticed even RJ says he wouldn't mind a Wagon.

Biker. Look at what I'm driving. I don't think Ford needs to cater to my personal preferences.

 

Also, I can't imagine that an 18 foot by 5 foot die is cheap. And who knows how many hits (and dies) are required to form the side panels?

[FordBuyer]

As of now, Ford has four vehicles that have more than one body style: Mustang, Fiesta, Focus, and F-Series. Their highest volume vehicle after F-Series has ONE. Hopefully in future Ford can scrape enough pennies out of the cookie jar to create another body style for another Ford vehicle with only one. Choice is good for consumer and manufacturer if they truly know what customer wants. And those wants change with the economy and federally mandated laws.

[Biker16]

Biker. Look at what I'm driving. I don't think Ford needs to cater to my personal preferences.

 

Also, I can't imagine that an 18 foot by 5 foot die is cheap. And who knows how many hits (and dies) are required to form the side panels?

 

In the scheme of things you cannot say they cost more than lets say 1 million per side.

 

on 150,000 units 2 million dollars of dies costs......... $13 per car.

 

If you don't the cost how can you say it is expensive.

[RichardJensen]

Look, it's generally understood that the most expensive single aspect of a new vehicle launch is the stamping dies (this assumes, of course, that any plant overhauls are accounted for independent of the new vehicle launch, which is the most responsible way of tracking costs).

 

I have seen it asserted that the '08 Charger cost $145M in tooling. I have also seen estimates of up to $250M for retooling for an entire new vehicle.

 

I don't think you can plausibly say that a die the size of the entire car costs as little as $1M.

 

 

Further, I doubt that Ford can land a $3k premium for the Fusion wagon, when you can get an Escape with comparable cargo volume for the same price as a Fusion.

Edited April 27, 2012 by RichardJensen

[Biker16]

Look, it's generally understood that the most expensive single aspect of a new vehicle launch is the stamping dies (this assumes, of course, that any plant overhauls are accounted for independent of the new vehicle launch, which is the most responsible way of tracking costs).

 

I have seen it asserted that the '08 Charger cost $145M in tooling. I have also seen estimates of up to $250M for retooling for an entire new vehicle.

 

I don't think you can plausibly say that a die the size of the entire car costs as little as $1M.

 

yet you don't have any proof how much a new set of dies would cost?

 

a wagon would not be an entirely new vehicle. If you put the cost of new wagon specific dies, basically any stamping that cannot be imported, large parts, etc. It may run up to 100 million dollars.

 

At a annual sales rate of 30,000 units over 5 years that is $666 per vehicle. The Focus hatch commands a $800 premium over the Focus sedan.

 

even at your 145 million retooling costs it would average 967 premium per vehicle. but could you ever imagine that it could cost as much to retool for a wagon as it does to retool for an re-skinned vehicle ?

 

 

 

Further, I doubt that Ford can land a $3k premium for the Fusion wagon, when you can get an Escape with comparable cargo volume for the same price as a Fusion.

 

You mistakenly assume that the buyer will cross shop the escape and Fusion wagon, just like people assume that flex buyer will magically gravitate towards the explorer if the flex was not there.

 

the Advantage of a Fusion Wagon vs a Escape is more involved driving experience, more refinement, more athletic styling, better performance, much better Fuel Economy.

 

the fusion Sedan with the EB16

26/37 mpg city/hwy

 

Escape

23/33 MPG

Edited April 27, 2012 by Biker16

[GTwannabe]

How dare you bring facts and figures to a BON thread?

 

The MSRP bump between Focus sedan and hatch is $1800. Why is $2500-3000 an unreasonable premium for a Fusion wagon? VW doesn't have any trouble getting that for the Jetta Sportwagon.