Ford: Only Half of Customers Like Touch-Driven Climate Controls

[jcthorne]

Well, I've never had the issue he's talking about, despite some rather disgusting summer weather here. :shrug: Maybe the MKT's A/C just sucks.

 

And you have never used max ac or recirc mode?

[jcthorne]

Actually, the issue is that if you set the thermostat to 72/Auto, it won't reach 72 without the additional step of manually activating recirc.

 

His point (and I think it's a fair one, to be honest) is that the system should recognize when recirc is advantageous and activate it automatically.

 

Thanks, nice to know at least one person understood the point I was trying to make.

 

I should just move on, far larger problems and tasks need my efforts than this one.

[StevenCaylor]

The only car I've ever owned with Electronic Air Conditioning was my 87 Turbo Coupe. It was standard procedure when turning it on when warm to hit the recirc button. On my other cars, an 83 Escort GT and a 2000 Mustang, I always use the Max setting vs the Norm setting (of couse, with my 65 Mustang, you got recirc no matter what). Even in relatively humidy free Southern California, I've always believed the recirc mode gives the best fuel economy. As far as I'm concerned, the fresh air setting was for people who smoked.

[BrewfanGRB]

You are correct, you do not have the same experience as someone that lives on the gulf coast. The humidity (water content) of the outside air is a huge load on the ac system. If running on 100% outside air at 100 deg and 60% RH and trying to cool to 70 deg, more than 80% of the cooling capacity would be used in condensing water out of the air, not actually lowering the temp of the air itself. Its a BIG difference. Recirc mode allow the system to only cool the inside air removing heat, the water is already gone other than from the humans inside.

 

100F and 60% humidity? Give me a break already. That's a dewpoint of 84F and a heat index of 129-132F (depending on the chart you use...the math isn't exactly a C to F conversion). Does 100F happen in Houston? Of course. Routinely. Does high humidity occur? Of course. Routinely. But warmer atmospheric temperatures allow the atmosphere to hold a greater water content (and thus, RELATIVE HUMIDITY goes down, in general, as temperatures increase). So a 100F temp with 84F dewpoint (which is what it would be if the RH was 60%) would be a once a summer (at the very most) or more likely, a once every 5-10 years event. At any rate, it's not daily summer weather in Houston.

 

The average high temp and average DP in Houston in July and August are 93 and 72 respectively (so that would be pretty typical, daily weather). Those figures are not far off from the temps/dp Green Bay gets 3-4 times a year. And low 70s dp's with upper 80s temps are common in July and August. So you can stop the "woe is me, Houston is waaaay worse than anything you guys know about" argument).

 

If I drop the windows, let the AC run for a bit, then raise the windows and run recirc for a bit and then turn off recirc, the system on Auto set to 70 will keep the car cool (it has to work, but it does it). Your issue is that 1) recirc doesn't come on automatically in "Auto", everytime. I could see the argument that a more sophisticated system could engage and disengage recirc on its own--but frankly, I always perceived recirc as a way of prevent exterior air (and thus, contaminants like odors, etc from entering the veh) and 2) that you don't have touch control for it. But as others have noted, many complaints with MFT/MLT are that it's hard to find or use commonly used functions. For YOU, recirc would be commonly used, but not the majority of the consumers. So it's lower on the dash as a regular button. So you push it to engage (and leave it on if you want) or push it to turn it off. This isn't hard.

Edited June 14, 2012 by BrewfanGRB

[BrewfanGRB]

Perhaps you are right. I should not expect a Detroit auto manufacture to design an HVAC system in its luxury brand that works automaticly in Houston weather. I should only expect that from Japanese or German manufacture. I never really thought it 'broken' until I discovered it worked correctly in a Lexus.

 

No, what you PERCEIVE as "correctly". It's really actually just your preference for recirc to engage by default in "Auto" mode. There's no correct/incorrect here.

[fordmantpw]

Your flex reaches a comfortable temp on 100+ deg days without the use of recirc or max ac modes?

 

Not sure that I've tried without recirc, but we don't typically touch the recirc button. In the Flex, I couldn't tell you if the recirc stays on between restarts or not (it's my wife's daily driver, not mine).

[BrewfanGRB]

Actually, the issue is that if you set the thermostat to 72/Auto, it won't reach 72 without the additional step of manually activating recirc.

 

Yes, it will. At start, it would just take a little longer to achieve 72 without using recirc. His issue is having to push the button. Maybe people in climates that are dry and more temperate would hate having to turn OFF recirc EVERYTIME they start the car.

 

I will agree that more sophisticaled software that could automatically assess the relative humidity and ambient temp and make its own decision to use or not use recirc (and be overridden either way) would be nice.

Edited June 14, 2012 by BrewfanGRB

[fordmantpw]

Yes, it will. At start, it would just take a little longer to achieve 72 without using recirc. His issue is having to push the button. Maybe people in climates that are dry and more temperate would hate having to turn OFF recirc EVERYTIME they start the car.

 

I will agree that more sophisticaled software that could automatically assess the relative humidity and ambient temp and make its own decision to use or not use recirc (and be overridden either way) would be nice.

 

I think the point is more that the recirc setting doesn't retain the previous setting, it always reverts to off, which is not the way it should work.

 

Oddly enough, I just asked my wife and her recirc stays where she last left it. She drives down a gravel road to take the little one to daycare, and she checks it every morning, and the recirc stays on. I think there is something wrong with your MKT, since the Flex HVAC should be the same as the MKT.

[RichardJensen]

Those figures are not far off from the temps/dp Green Bay gets 3-4 times a year. And low 70s dp's with upper 80s temps are common in July and August.

You're missing a major difference between Green Bay & Houston: Latitude.

 

Houston got 13 hours of daylight today, Green Bay got 15-1/2.

 

 

Why that's relevant:

 

http://www.applet-magic.com/insolation.htm

 

Green Bay received about 11.62 kW of solar radiation today, per square meter. Houston received about 11.39 kW per square meter.

 

 

Factoring in length of day, Green Bay received about 751 watts per hour per square meter. Houston received 876 watts per square meter per hour.

 

That is a significant and meaningful difference when it comes to air conditioner loading. Especially for something like a metal car.

[RichardJensen]

BTW: the nature of the difference in latitude didn't hit me until I spent time in Puerto Rico. From sun up to like 9, and from about 5 to sundown, the tropics feel much like the 'temperate latitudes'. But during the peak daytime hours, that sunlight is unlike anything you will experience at higher latitudes.

Edited June 14, 2012 by RichardJensen

[tsd98]

JC, can sympathize completely....grew up in the pineywoods, completed my undergrad in Aggieland, worked in Houston, and now live/work in Beaumont. I'm pretty sure our Summer ambient temps here are too much for a single pass of outside air over the evaporator coil to handle. I own an older F-150, and drive a F-350 for work. They pretty much have to run on "MAX" for the first few minutes after starting in the Summer months to remove humidity and cool effectively during the heat of the day. Would be really nice if Ford could program their systems to run in MAX or RECIRC automatically for 10-15 minutes when ambient temps are over about 85 F for those of us on the Gulf Coast. The systems obviously have the capacity because they can cool the passenger cabins effectively with manual control in a few minutes. Like others have stated, my wife's Benz carries this task out seamlessly.

[RichardJensen]

The system would need a hygrometer. You don't need to run recirc when it's 85 in the desert. Or 85 in the upper midwest, etc.

[aneekr]

I will agree that more sophisticaled software that could automatically assess the relative humidity and ambient temp and make its own decision to use or not use recirc (and be overridden either way) would be nice.

 

That's exactly how an ACC system should work. The unit in my W220 S-Class does this; it will also automatically select recirc mode upon detecting elevated ambient smog levels via an activated charcoal filter. The four zone system in the W221 S-Class has logic that uses the seat belt and passenger presence sensors to automatically focus airflow distribution toward occupied seats when started.

 

Incidentally, the owners guides for 2011 Taurus and 2011 MKT state that full automatic operation of those vehicles' ACC do have the ability to set fresh air or recirc mode without manual override:

"Press [AUTO] to engage full automatic operation. Select the desired temperature using the temperature control. The system will automatically determine fan speed, airflow location, A/C on or off, and outside or recirculated air, to heat or cool the vehicle to reach the desired temperature.

Edited June 14, 2012 by aneekr

[BrewfanGRB]

You're missing a major difference between Green Bay & Houston: Latitude.

 

Houston got 13 hours of daylight today, Green Bay got 15-1/2.

 

 

Why that's relevant:

 

http://www.applet-ma.../insolation.htm

 

Green Bay received about 11.62 kW of solar radiation today, per square meter. Houston received about 11.39 kW per square meter.

 

 

Factoring in length of day, Green Bay received about 751 watts per hour per square meter. Houston received 876 watts per square meter per hour.

 

That is a significant and meaningful difference when it comes to air conditioner loading. Especially for something like a metal car.

 

Great job with the research and stats--I love how we both got about the same energy in the course of the day, but it took us longer--it's interesting. I was more responding to his comment about how Houston gets 100F and 60% RH as if it was a routine occurrence. But it seems to me that the issue of loading in this sense would be greatest when first entering the vehicle, while it's been sitting absorbing the energy. He's contended he can't get the car to maintain the setpoint without recirc. I don't buy it--because even if stuck in traffic and accounting for the higher energy, the AC running would have reduced the temp already in the car. (Thus, it should mean the AC doesn't need to work as hard as it did when the car was first turned on). I still feel like I'm missing something.

[RichardJensen]

Those longer days are the reason why we can have very warm summers at this latitude.

 

Also, the problem of excess heat load is an ongoing problem. Assuming a 4 square meter passenger compartment floor area, you are looking at about 255 additional watts of infrared radiation (heat) hitting the vehicle at all times (~51% of the solar spectrum is infrared). This would be comparable to having a 1000W space heater running on low in the car at the same time.

 

Not only are you dealing with additional radiation, the latent heat of the water vapor is significant. Water vapor, being, essentially boiled water, releases heat when it condenses back into a liquid (the heat that it absorbs when it evaporates). When one pint of water condenses on your evaporator coils, that adds roughly 1,013 BTUs of heat energy to the system that must be overcome.

 

The math to calculate the significance of a 10% difference in rel. humidity at 80 deg. isn't difficult, but I don't have the attention span for it right now.

Edited June 14, 2012 by RichardJensen

[lfeg]

100F and 60% humidity? Give me a break already. That's a dewpoint of 84F and a heat index of 129-132F (depending on the chart you use...the math isn't exactly a C to F conversion). Does 100F happen in Houston? Of course. Routinely. Does high humidity occur? Of course. Routinely. But warmer atmospheric temperatures allow the atmosphere to hold a greater water content (and thus, RELATIVE HUMIDITY goes down, in general, as temperatures increase). So a 100F temp with 84F dewpoint (which is what it would be if the RH was 60%) would be a once a summer (at the very most) or more likely, a once every 5-10 years event. At any rate, it's not daily summer weather in Houston.

 

The average high temp and average DP in Houston in July and August are 93 and 72 respectively (so that would be pretty typical, daily weather). Those figures are not far off from the temps/dp Green Bay gets 3-4 times a year. And low 70s dp's with upper 80s temps are common in July and August. So you can stop the "woe is me, Houston is waaaay worse than anything you guys know about" argument).

 

 

Talked to someone in the Houston area last night. She mentioned temps in low 90s and high humidity. So I just looked at the NWS hourly forcast for today. Looks like temps going from about 76 in eatly AM to 92 at 4 PM, with dewpoints holding at 74. looks like similar conditions for the next 4 or 5 days. Quite humid to me. And the times I have been there in the summer temps in the upper 90s and dewpoints up around 80 are common. Add the sun, and it can get miserable quickly.

[akirby]

Talked to someone in the Houston area last night. She mentioned temps in low 90s and high humidity. So I just looked at the NWS hourly forcast for today. Looks like temps going from about 76 in eatly AM to 92 at 4 PM, with dewpoints holding at 74. looks like similar conditions for the next 4 or 5 days. Quite humid to me. And the times I have been there in the summer temps in the upper 90s and dewpoints up around 80 are common. Add the sun, and it can get miserable quickly.

 

He wasn't debating that it was humid and hot. He was just saying that 100F and 60% relative humidity were exaggerations. 100F and 40% humidity yields a dewpoint of 72 which is about right and it's still unbearable.

 

What is the significance of the dewpoint relative to temperature (other than it produces dew)?

[akirby]

I would hope a $80K S class would have a hygrometer - and maybe new Lincolns will also get one at some point. But the simple solution is for recirc to stay on between starts. It seems to be hit or miss - some vehicles do it and some don't. This is one thing that One Ford should be fixing (along with consistent steering wheel controls).

[fordmantpw]

Some interesting info on dew point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dew_point

[NickF1011]

And you have never used max ac or recirc mode?

 

I haven't changed my HVAC settings from 72 degrees Auto since the week I bought it.

[akirby]

Some interesting info on dew point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dew_point

 

My understanding was always that the temperature would not drop below the dewpoint. So if the dewpoint was 72 the low temp overnight would be at least 72.

[NickF1011]

My understanding was always that the temperature would not drop below the dewpoint. So if the dewpoint was 72 the low temp overnight would be at least 72.

 

Naaaaah. Dew point is independent of temperature and wholly dependent upon humidity.

[akirby]

Naaaaah. Dew point is independent of temperature and wholly dependent upon humidity.

 

Ummm......dew point IS temperature. It's the temperature at which relative humidity is 100% which means the air is saturated with water vapor so nor more evaporative cooling can take place. Water vapor also retains heat.

 

The dew point is a good indication of how low the temperature can fall overnight unless a cold front arrives with a different air mass. For example, if the afternoon temperature is 80 degrees and the dew point is 70 degrees, the temperature isn't going to fall below 70 that night. When it reaches 70, the water vapor will begin condensing into fog or dew and such condensation releases heat.

 

http://www.usatoday.com/weather/resources/askjack/wfaqhumi.htm

[Hugh]

So I can control dew point through the buttons or a voice command?

[fordmantpw]

My understanding was always that the temperature would not drop below the dewpoint. So if the dewpoint was 72 the low temp overnight would be at least 72.

 

Unless humidity drops, thus decreasing dew point, allowing the temperature to fall lower.