fxcomet Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 This one's gonna hurt. http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2012/11/02/epa-finds-hyundai-kia-overstated-gas-mileage/?intcmp=features Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerM Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Unless an "intent to defraud" can be demonstrated, I'm not sure what legal trouble they're in. But as a matter of public relations, yes it probably will hurt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Wait until the lawsuits start flying when someone wants Hyundai to buy the car back due to fraudulent MPG claims. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Holy cow - 3 or 4 or 6 mpg is a HUGE difference. This isn't a rounding error or minor procedural problem. I know we speculated the last couple of years that their numbers seemed high but even I didn't think it was this bad. And this is why Ford isn't about to try to game their EPA numbers. It's not worth it if you get caught. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 I wonder how the hell they could pull this off....did they send ringers to the EPA to test? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 (edited) I wonder how the hell they could pull this off....did they send ringers to the EPA to test? The EPA didn't do the test - they did. The EPA only tests a small percentage of the vehicles. The rest are manufacturer tested under EPA supervision. Edited November 2, 2012 by akirby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Unless an "intent to defraud" can be demonstrated, I'm not sure what legal trouble they're in. But as a matter of public relations, yes it probably will hurt. As a matter of financial trouble it's going to sting too. They are going to be sending annual "makeup" checks to owners for years. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 As a matter of financial trouble it's going to sting too. They are going to be sending annual "makeup" checks to owners for years. Expect huge EPA fines, too. I don't think they can explain this one as a simple accident or misunderstanding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerM Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 As a matter of financial trouble it's going to sting too. They are going to be sending annual "makeup" checks to owners for years. My guess is that would apply to original owners only. Even then, I'm supposing they get to determine what constitutes "average miles driven per year" and the assumed cost of fuel. Regardless, I can't say my wife's Santa Fe doesn't meet the sticker. Drove to Disney last month and got the exact EPA hwy estimate most of the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 I'm supposing they get to determine what constitutes "average miles driven per year" It says they'll use actual mileage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
97svtgoin05gt Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 I knew Hyundai was BS'in on those numbers. They should be hung for this. This is obviouslyl a case of lie to customers to increase sales. I can't wait till the government starts digging in their corporate email system etc to get the proof this was a concious act. Its going to cost them BIG in both customer loyalty and makeup money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goinbroke2 Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 I knew Hyundai was BS'in on those numbers. They should be hung for this. This is obviouslyl a case of lie to customers to increase sales. Meh, the dems do it all the time! LOL! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Meh, the dems do it all the time! LOL! Watch it. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-150 Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 I knew Hyundai was BS'in on those numbers. They should be hung for this. This is obviouslyl a case of lie to customers to increase sales. I can't wait till the government starts digging in their corporate email system etc to get the proof this was a concious act. Its going to cost them BIG in both customer loyalty and makeup money. This isn't news. People have been talking on this forum for a couple of years on this issue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 This isn't news. People have been talking on this forum for a couple of years on this issue Yes, but we also said that it would be very difficult for them to do this without getting caught. Well, I guess we were right on both counts. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aneekr Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Details from Hyundai Motor America and Kia Motors America, Inc. The most salient issue here is the sheer complexity of EPA's test protocols. Hyundai/Kia wasn't the first to encounter procedural errors in conducting EPA tests, and won't be the last. I don't know if the Worldwide harmonized light vehicles test procedures currently being developed under UNECE guidelines will improve matters, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Details from Hyundai Motor America and Kia Motors America, Inc. The most salient issue here is the sheer complexity of EPA's test protocols. Hyundai/Kia wasn't the first to encounter procedural errors in conducting EPA tests, and won't be the last. Not buying it. There have been problems with individual vehicles but never anything this widespread. And I doubt any other mfrs had trouble interpreting the coastdown rules. This smells like plausible deniability to me. Let's fudge on the coastdown and if we get caught we'll just say it's too complicated and we made a mistake. Nope - not buying it. I'm expecting to see internal emails and memos start to surface over the next month or so that indicates as much. If I'm wrong I'll apologize. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Click here: Hyundai, Kia misstate mileage claims | The Detroit News | detroitnews.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
97svtgoin05gt Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 I'm with akirby. A multi-billion dollar, multi-national corporation doesn't make mistakes like this. Why doesn't little Subaru with less resource than Hyundai make this mistake? All of Detroit report real numbers (and get beat up by the ficticious numbers coughed up by Hyundai). Also not buying it and I too will eat my hat if we don't begin to see internal documents drawing attention to the false figures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Here is a thought...did they use straight gasoline in their testing and out here in the real world where we are forced to use E-10 which results in a 1-3 (or more) resultant drop in MPGs? In my area, you can get straight gasoline with no ethanol from the local Fastrac in the premium blend only. Regular (87 octane) still has E-10 in it.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Here is a thought...did they use straight gasoline in their testing and out here in the real world where we are forced to use E-10 which results in a 1-3 (or more) resultant drop in MPGs? In my area, you can get straight gasoline with no ethanol from the local Fastrac in the premium blend only. Regular (87 octane) still has E-10 in it.... They said it was due to the coastdown procedure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
03 LS Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Looks like Hyunda/Kia have (had) 0, ZERO, 40mpg vehicles in their NA lineups!! They had been running radio commercials in Detroit area, touting they sold more 40mpg cars than all other manufacturers combined, and that includes Toyota (I'm guessing they narrowed it to non-hybrid vehicles only). Where is fine on false advertizing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aneekr Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Here is a thought...did they use straight gasoline in their testing and out here in the real world where we are forced to use E-10 which results in a 1-3 (or more) resultant drop in MPGs? In my area, you can get straight gasoline with no ethanol from the local Fastrac in the premium blend only. Regular (87 octane) still has E-10 in it.... Good question twintornados. Here's Car and Driver's explanation about how the EPA test protocol is designed to minimize discrepancies resulting from differing fuel composition: "Measuring fuel economy during the tests is likewise hugely complex, which is why the automakers and the EPA both follow precisely the same protocol. For openers, the chemical composition of fuel varies slightly, so simply retrieving it from a local gas station won’t produce repeatable results. The EPA has a specialized company manufacture small batches of consistent fuel, which is 93 octane (cars running 50-state certifications get a slightly different, 91-octane “California” blend). Before being used, the gas is analyzed to measure its properties, and fuel economy is then calculated based on the measured carbon content of the various tailpipe emissions—unburned hydrocarbons, carbon dioxide (CO2), carbon monoxide (CO), methane (CH4), and oxides of nitrogen (NOx)—that are collected in bags made of a special Kynar plastic. A $350,000 gas-analyzing machine then makes minute measurements. The one-percent accuracy of this machine from Japanese company Horiba is amazing considering the minuscule amounts of some of the exhaust constituents—some in quantities as low as a half-dozen parts per million." (Source) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 The most salient issue here is the sheer complexity of EPA's test protocols. Oh piffle! This is a car company. How complicated is it to manufacture a car? Considerably more complicated than performing a 1-1/2 hour test!!!! If your company can marshal the resources and manpower to build a car out of steel and supplied parts, it can certainly perform this test!!!!! Yeesh. ---- Also, this will be a magnificent series of lawsuits, compromised only by the difficulty of compelling discovery from a foreign company. If they were smart, KIA/Hyundai sequestered any number of records overseas as soon as the EPA called up and said, 'Uh, we'll need some vehicles to test your FE claims'. Also, also, this is certainly not surprising. Someone was going to try this sooner or later; and likely it would be a company headed by people that are apparently unfamiliar with the bureaucratic wrath of Washington and the eager legions of trial lawyers, ready to approproate chunks of Hundai/KIA cash for their own sustenance and luxury. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLPRacing Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 My guess is that would apply to original owners only. Even then, I'm supposing they get to determine what constitutes "average miles driven per year" and the assumed cost of fuel. Regardless, I can't say my wife's Santa Fe doesn't meet the sticker. Drove to Disney last month and got the exact EPA hwy estimate most of the way. OT - How was Disney? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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