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Partner with whom?  Daimler has F-liner, Volvo has Mack, VW has International.  FCA/Ram or GM would be awkward and GM is partnered with International on mediums.  The only one left is PACCAR (Kenworth/Peterbilt) and I don't think that would work.  The truth is if Ford went into class 8 themselves, they would own the short haul/vocational biz like they used to.  That's why Daimler/Freightliner bought the Ford Class 6, 7 and 8 L-series when they re-tooled it in 1997.  They had to get rid of that pesky Ford powerhouse!

Edited by Joe771476
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I was just at the International Builders Show in Las Vegas.  On display were trucks from Ford, Chevrolet and Ram.  No one brought anything heavier than a Class 5.  Last year, Ford had a F-650 Dump truck on display.  Ford an F-550, Chevrolet had a 5500 and Ram had the Ram 5500.  I did notice that on the Silverado 5500, it was a Duramax and the clean idle certification sticker on it was labeled International.  I found that a little odd, since it is a GM engine.

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1 hour ago, hwyman3 said:

I was just at the International Builders Show in Las Vegas.  On display were trucks from Ford, Chevrolet and Ram.  No one brought anything heavier than a Class 5.  Last year, Ford had a F-650 Dump truck on display.  Ford an F-550, Chevrolet had a 5500 and Ram had the Ram 5500.  I did notice that on the Silverado 5500, it was a Duramax and the clean idle certification sticker on it was labeled International.  I found that a little odd, since it is a GM engine.

550 Power Stroke or gas (7.3?)

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29 minutes ago, theoldwizard said:

I would expect it to be a big cost savings !

For Ford and buyers.

This is Ford posing a question you normally don’t see, giving buyers a choice between F600 and F650, normally Ford would protect the latter but it seems like they way has buyers to switch to F600, that or it’s offering F550 buyers a little more truck.....maybe both?

Edited by jpd80
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Actually I am thinking PACCAR or Freightliner.  Neither has much of a presence in class 4-6, and Ford could offer a viable medium duty gasoline engine.  I have a feeling that the 650 and 750 will eventually go, they are quite different than the 600-smaller trucks and the volume really isn't there to justify a unique platform and assembly line.  

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21 hours ago, hwyman3 said:

I was just at the International Builders Show in Las Vegas.  On display were trucks from Ford, Chevrolet and Ram.  No one brought anything heavier than a Class 5.  Last year, Ford had a F-650 Dump truck on display.  Ford an F-550, Chevrolet had a 5500 and Ram had the Ram 5500.  I did notice that on the Silverado 5500, it was a Duramax and the clean idle certification sticker on it was labeled International.  I found that a little odd, since it is a GM engine.

Lord knows that Navistar blew it with the MaxxForce, so it's a good thing it's a GM engine.

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Ford leads in class 6, is third in class 7.  If they drop 6 & 7, they can hand over to Ram the class 3 thru 5 biz as well.  They've already lost a lot of it to Ram anyway, hell, give it all!  Why is Hino smart enough to realize that if you want customers to take you seriously in 6 and 7, then you MUST be a player in class 8!!!!?  Is Ford that dumb?!!

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44 minutes ago, Joe771476 said:

Ford leads in class 6, is third in class 7.  If they drop 6 & 7, they can hand over to Ram the class 3 thru 5 biz as well.  They've already lost a lot of it to Ram anyway, hell, give it all!  Why is Hino smart enough to realize that if you want customers to take you seriously in 6 and 7, then you MUST be a player in class 8!!!!?  Is Ford that dumb?!!

 Or is the return on investment not worth it?  Class 8 is very crowded field isn't it, with well established players.  To create a cost effective class 8 truck might be too much of bite to support class 3 to 7.  Just asking.

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1 hour ago, pictor said:

 Or is the return on investment not worth it?  Class 8 is very crowded field isn't it, with well established players.  To create a cost effective class 8 truck might be too much of bite to support class 3 to 7.  Just asking.

I would say you are correct-when you talk about the upper end of class 8. In particular  tandem tractors with high rise sleepers built for 80,000 GCW and above.

However IMO, Ford could very easily be in the class 8 vocational market with the current 750 IF-and a big IF-they brought the Duratorque  9 liter over from Turkey and offered some HD transmission options-be it Allison, ZF, Eaton etc. as well as a tandem of at least 38,000 pds.  Plenty of applications running around in the lower end of  8 where this would work. Is the cab ideal?- no.  Would it work? I think so.  Think a guy who pounds around all day in a 550 service truck for the local Cat dealer is that inconvenienced in a 550?  Or the guy in a 550 bucket truck working for Verizon?

Case in point,  I  was at a friends shop the other day and a class 6 Hino ramp truck pulls in to drop off a Deere. My usual question .."so how is  your Hino?"  Guy happened to be the owner and he gave a less than overly enthusiastic "ok".  Had a few problems and then he says its .."nothing like the new 550 I have.  That thing is like driving a nice car all day.  I don't feel beat at the end of the day".

 

I say this while at the same time I think Ford needs a new cab to effectively compete with International and F'liner but lets face it, the current cab isn't exactly "unfriendly". Would I rather be higher up in the air with better forward sightlines?  Yes I would but its  not bad.

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20 hours ago, jpd80 said:

You watch, Ford will be pushing the F600 ahead of F650 this year

...anything under (f600) and including f500 ford should be pushing on rv market...once you pull a trailer in that class you will never go down to the toys again...i do not see much use for 7.3 above the f350....

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11 minutes ago, snooter said:

...anything under (f600) and including f500 ford should be pushing on rv market...once you pull a trailer in that class you will never go down to the toys again...i do not see much use for 7.3 above the f350....

Well we plowed this ground before but I have to disagree.  The 7.3 will be a big seller in class 4-7 for the operator who needs decent power but will never recover the diesel  premium first cost if he does not run  a lot of miles.

 

And even in class 3-same story- I look at all  the landscapers around here who are  pulling 20ft trailers-open and boxes- that are packed with equipment.  And most of these guys will work a specific neighborhood each day-they  don't make money driving their trucks around, they make it when their crew is mowing.   

 

The key will be what kind of  mpg does the 7.3 get and what will the cost premium be for a Power Stroke. At this point Ford will be the only game in town when it comes to gas with the exception of the Isuzu/Chevy clone cab overs.

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26 minutes ago, Bob Rosadini said:

Well we plowed this ground before but I have to disagree.  The 7.3 will be a big seller in class 4-7 for the operator who needs decent power but will never recover the diesel  premium first cost if he does not run  a lot of miles.

 

And even in class 3-same story- I look at all  the landscapers around here who are  pulling 20ft trailers-open and boxes- that are packed with equipment.  And most of these guys will work a specific neighborhood each day-they  don't make money driving their trucks around, they make it when their crew is mowing.   

 

The key will be what kind of  mpg does the 7.3 get and what will the cost premium be for a Power Stroke. At this point Ford will be the only game in town when it comes to gas with the exception of the Isuzu/Chevy clone cab overs.

What realistically is the market...you cant even get the gasser in the f450....trying to chase small players in medium duty above f350 may be a fools game with the gasser...i can see f500 being somewhat viable for the 7.3 (small business owners) but for long term cost basis the PS makes far more sense....the 10k upfront costs long term is far cheaper after 20 years of ownership compared to a gasser that needs to be pulled after 100k miles..my argument here is if the gasser is not even available in the f450 its giving a clue not even ford thinks it has much marketable viability going up in size.... 

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16 minutes ago, snooter said:

What realistically is the market...you cant even get the gasser in the f450....trying to chase small players in medium duty above f350 may be a fools game with the gasser...i can see f500 being somewhat viable for the 7.3 (small business owners) but for long term cost basis the PS makes far more sense....the 10k upfront costs long term is far cheaper after 20 years of ownership compared to a gasser that needs to be pulled after 100k miles..my argument here is if the gasser is not even available in the f450 its giving a clue not even ford thinks it has much marketable viability going up in size.... 

 

Snooter,

   Just to clarify, the 7.3 IS available in F-450 & 550 chassis cabs, which are the starting point for all those box trucks and specialty rigs you see. I'll bet they sell a LOT more CC's than conventional bed pickups in that size range.

 

HRG

2020 SD CC powertrains.pdf

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17 minutes ago, snooter said:

What realistically is the market...you cant even get the gasser in the f450....trying to chase small players in medium duty above f350 may be a fools game with the gasser...i can see f500 being somewhat viable for the 7.3 (small business owners) but for long term cost basis the PS makes far more sense....the 10k upfront costs long term is far cheaper after 20 years of ownership compared to a gasser that needs to be pulled after 100k miles..my argument here is if the gasser is not even available in the f450 its giving a clue not even ford thinks it has much marketable viability going up in size.... 

 

The F450 C&C has the gasser available, but the pickup does not.  They're marketed to completely different folks.

 

Oh, and BTW, this isn't 1980 any more...gassers go on well past 100k miles.  I think you need to find a different hobby, dude.

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12 minutes ago, snooter said:

What realistically is the market...you cant even get the gasser in the f450....trying to chase small players in medium duty above f350 may be a fools game with the gasser...i can see f500 being somewhat viable for the 7.3 (small business owners) but for long term cost basis the PS makes far more sense....the 10k upfront costs long term is far cheaper after 20 years of ownership compared to a gasser that needs to be pulled after 100k miles..my argument here is if the gasser is not even available in the f450 its giving a clue not even ford thinks it has much marketable viability going up in size.... 

The 7.3 will be available in 250-750 with derated ratings I believe  in 550 up.  Unless the SAE has changed what HP is and lb/feet is "back in the day" an F-700 was available with a 429 that had a max HP of 231.  At that rating it was certified for 37,000 GVW or 60,000 GCW.  What was the 429?  A PV engine that  was modified for  commercial use. The 7.3 IS a commercial engine designed for commercial use-listen to Beltramo's intro.

 

You are correct- after 20 years the 6.7 would probably be  a better choice. The point is a 20 year payout will not make sense to a lot of buyers.  A 5 year payout will not even work  for some.

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22 minutes ago, Bob Rosadini said:

The 7.3 will be available in 250-750 with derated ratings I believe  in 550 up.  Unless the SAE has changed what HP is and lb/feet is "back in the day" an F-700 was available with a 429 that had a max HP of 231.  At that rating it was certified for 37,000 GVW or 60,000 GCW.  What was the 429?  A PV engine that  was modified for  commercial use. The 7.3 IS a commercial engine designed for commercial use-listen to Beltramo's intro.

 

You are correct- after 20 years the 6.7 would probably be  a better choice. The point is a 20 year payout will not make sense to a lot of buyers.  A 5 year payout will not even work  for some.

20 year payout crowd is out there...ford of course would rather it not be ...leasing can make sense if rates are favorable (welcome to 2009 credit burst) for a business that needs a truck and does not want the headache of repairs.... the PS makes far greater sense for long term ownership and durability...not sure what you mean by "commercial"...i get the torque/hp operating parameters but one could call a 351 placed in the 3/4ton as being "commercial"....

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3 hours ago, snooter said:

...anything under (f600) and including f500 ford should be pushing on rv market...once you pull a trailer in that class you will never go down to the toys again...i do not see much use for 7.3 above the f350....

I switched to gas for my tow trucks back in 06. Too many diesel issues back then, and since they got better but repair costs skyrocketed on the diesels. I would never buy one again. I even bought my F650 with a V10. If I buy a new motor home it would have to be gas. 

 

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18 minutes ago, LSchicago said:

I switched to gas for my tow trucks back in 06. Too many diesel issues back then, and since they got better but repair costs skyrocketed on the diesels. I would never buy one again. I even bought my F650 with a V10. If I buy a new motor home it would have to be gas. 

 

I am strongly considering f350 gasser for reasons you gave myself.....the argument is the 7.3 above f500...long term cost basis favors the PS and the increase in towing weight it provides....the personal use market is where the gasser should mostly end up but even that depends on usage/needs/towing requirements

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