7Mary3 Posted February 26, 2020 Share Posted February 26, 2020 I don't think GM really wants to be a serious player in class 6 and 7, beyond offering their commercial dealers a basic product in that segment. From what I understand Navistar is more than pleased with the GM joint venture, it got them into class 4/5 at minimal cost and it has increased plant utilization at Springfield significantly. GM is also able to offer Navistar engineering and components for HVAC, electrical, and body systems, I suspect that is what is driving the possibility of future joint projects. I don't see VW having much of a problem with this, it represents sales volume and cost savings. BTW, after VW made that offer for Navistar the silence has been deafening........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted February 26, 2020 Share Posted February 26, 2020 (edited) 6 hours ago, SteelyD said: So this is a direct competitor to the F-600 or F-650. C-60. The platform is medium duty frame so in concept it is similar to F-650. But GM also offers lower GVWR for class 4 and 5 that competes with F-450/550. This is why Ford is offering F-600 as a response. GM's truck offerings doesn't quite line up with Ford or FCA. Ford has 1 chassis for Class 2a (F-150) and 2nd chassis for class 2b to Class 5 that it markets as "HD" (F-250-550) and a third medium duty Class 6 to Class 8 chassis (F-650-750). FCA has 1 chassis for Class 2a to Class 5 (Ram 1500 to 5500) GM has 1 chassis for Class 2a to Class 3 (Silverado 1500 to 3500) and 2nd chassis (actually Navistar medium duty chassis) for Class 4 to 6 (Silverado 4500 to 6500) Ford Class 1: Ranger Class 2a: F-150 Class 2b/3/4/5: F-250/350/450/550 Class 6/7/8: F650/750 Class 2b/3: Transit cutaway/chassis cab Class 3/4: E-350/450 cutaway/stripped chassis Class 4/5/6: F59/F53 stripped chassis Class 1: Transit Connect van Class 2a/2b/3: Transit van FCA Class 1: Jeep Gladiator Class 2a/2b/3/4/5: Ram 1500/2500/3500/4500/5500 Class 2b/3: Promaster cutaway/chassis cab Class 1: Promaster City Class 2a/2b/3: Promaster GM Class 1: Colorado (based on Isuzu design) Class 2a/2b/3: Silverado 1500/2500/3500 Class 4/5/6: Silverado 4500/5500/6500 (Navistar chassis) Class 3/4/5: Low Cab Forward (Isuzu chassis) Class 2b/3: Express van You can see why Ford dominates commercial truck sales in the US - they have a tool for every niche. The only thing they don't compete in is cab forward but E-series can fill in there with better pricing and operating costs on a lot of bids. Unless the RFP specifically require cab forward or have length restriction, Ford can compete with everyone else. Edited February 26, 2020 by bzcat 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted February 26, 2020 Share Posted February 26, 2020 1 hour ago, bzcat said: The platform is medium duty frame so in concept it is similar to F-650. But GM also offers lower GVWR for class 4 and 5 that competes with F-450/550. This is why Ford is offering F-600 as a response. GM's truck offerings doesn't quite line up with Ford or FCA. Ford has 1 chassis for Class 2a (F-150) and 2nd chassis for class 2b to Class 5 that it markets as "HD" (F-250-550) and a third medium duty Class 6 to Class 8 chassis (F-650-750). FCA has 1 chassis for Class 2a to Class 5 (Ram 1500 to 5500) GM has 1 chassis for Class 2a to Class 3 (Silverado 1500 to 3500) and 2nd chassis (actually Navistar medium duty chassis) for Class 4 to 6 (Silverado 4500 to 6500) Ford Class 1: Ranger Class 2a: F-150 Class 2b/3/4/5: F-250/350/450/550 Class 6/7/8: F650/750 Class 2b/3: Transit cutaway/chassis cab Class 3/4: E-350/450 cutaway/stripped chassis Class 4/5/6: F59/F53 stripped chassis Class 1: Transit Connect van Class 2a/2b/3: Transit van FCA Class 1: Jeep Gladiator Class 2a/2b/3/4/5: Ram 1500/2500/3500/4500/5500 Class 2b/3: Promaster cutaway/chassis cab Class 1: Promaster City Class 2a/2b/3: Promaster GM Class 1: Colorado (based on Isuzu design) Class 2a/2b/3: Silverado 1500/2500/3500 Class 4/5/6: Silverado 4500/5500/6500 (Navistar chassis) Class 3/4/5: Low Cab Forward (Isuzu chassis) Class 2b/3: Express van You can see why Ford dominates commercial truck sales in the US - they have a tool for every niche. The only thing they don't compete in is cab forward but E-series can fill in there with better pricing and operating costs on a lot of bids. Unless the RFP specifically require cab forward or have length restriction, Ford can compete with everyone else. That's about the way I see it as well. GM does offer a class 6 LCF, the 6500XD, which is similar to the Isuzu FTR. The E series does offer better pricing than certain LCF's, but they really don't compete directly. And based on my experiences, Isuzu's have about the lowest operating costs of any commercial vehicle. Overall ownership costs are also low, the higher purchase price is offset by higher resale value. The E competes directly with the old Savanna/Express 3500/4500 cut-away versions. GM offers no stripped chassis models at this time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe771476 Posted February 26, 2020 Author Share Posted February 26, 2020 Well Hino sales keep climbing in class 8 from 2019 YTD last month of 8, now YTD for 2019 of 18 units. I could be wrong, but class 7 Hino and Ford sales seem to be getting closer. I foresee Hino overtaking Ford in class 7 because of Hino's entry into class 8. VW's Caminhoes e Onibus sales in Brazil are up 15 percent, since Ford bowed out there. It was because VW ordered Ford out of Brazil to show good faith regarding the VW/Ford joint venture. Yes, VW gives orders, Ford takes orders! No guts! VW had $14 billion profit last year! So many lawsuits over the dieselgate scandal totalling billions and it's like a nickel to them! They'll own Ford and International soon. I've made some monumental predictions that came true and if I told you them, you'd $hit! I hope I'm wrong about this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 6 hours ago, bzcat said: The platform is medium duty frame so in concept it is similar to F-650. But GM also offers lower GVWR for class 4 and 5 that competes with F-450/550. This is why Ford is offering F-600 as a response. GM's truck offerings doesn't quite line up with Ford or FCA. Ford has 1 chassis for Class 2a (F-150) and 2nd chassis for class 2b to Class 5 that it markets as "HD" (F-250-550) and a third medium duty Class 6 to Class 8 chassis (F-650-750). FCA has 1 chassis for Class 2a to Class 5 (Ram 1500 to 5500) GM has 1 chassis for Class 2a to Class 3 (Silverado 1500 to 3500) and 2nd chassis (actually Navistar medium duty chassis) for Class 4 to 6 (Silverado 4500 to 6500) Ford Class 1: Ranger Class 2a: F-150 Class 2b/3/4/5: F-250/350/450/550 Class 6/7/8: F650/750 Class 2b/3: Transit cutaway/chassis cab Class 3/4: E-350/450 cutaway/stripped chassis Class 4/5/6: F59/F53 stripped chassis Class 1: Transit Connect van Class 2a/2b/3: Transit van FCA Class 1: Jeep Gladiator Class 2a/2b/3/4/5: Ram 1500/2500/3500/4500/5500 Class 2b/3: Promaster cutaway/chassis cab Class 1: Promaster City Class 2a/2b/3: Promaster GM Class 1: Colorado (based on Isuzu design) Class 2a/2b/3: Silverado 1500/2500/3500 Class 4/5/6: Silverado 4500/5500/6500 (Navistar chassis) Class 3/4/5: Low Cab Forward (Isuzu chassis) Class 2b/3: Express van You can see why Ford dominates commercial truck sales in the US - they have a tool for every niche. The only thing they don't compete in is cab forward but E-series can fill in there with better pricing and operating costs on a lot of bids. Unless the RFP specifically require cab forward or have length restriction, Ford can compete with everyone else. Good summation although I would say F-600 is similar to 550, not 650. I view it as a 550 with heavier spring and tire options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 1 hour ago, Bob Rosadini said: Good summation although I would say F-600 is similar to 550, not 650. I view it as a 550 with heavier spring and tire options. I forgot to include F-600 but it is on the F-series HD chassis so definitely a 450/550 extension. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-150 Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 On 2/25/2020 at 3:37 PM, twintornados said: GM built cab, Navistar chassis and nose. Here is the Chevrolet version... The grill/headlight design is already obsolete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteelyD Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 21 hours ago, J-150 said: The grill/headlight design is already obsolete. Any difference than the the Chevrolet pic on page 151? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-150 Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 2 hours ago, SteelyD said: Any difference than the the Chevrolet pic on page 151? GM launched the MDs with a grill design to match the outgoing model. The light duty pickups don't look like that anymore. Huge blunder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 7 minutes ago, J-150 said: GM launched the MDs with a grill design to match the outgoing model. The light duty pickups don't look like that anymore. Huge blunder. Not that it really matters for an MD truck. I'm starting to see quite a few of them around now too. My niece's husband just bought one for his business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trailhiker Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 16 minutes ago, J-150 said: GM launched the MDs with a grill design to match the outgoing model. The light duty pickups don't look like that anymore. Huge blunder. Considering the design of the new light duty...I'd say thaey made a good choice. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 13 minutes ago, Trailhiker said: Considering the design of the new light duty...I'd say thaey made a good choice. Agree! Much cleaner than the new one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 Big thanks-again- to Ice Capades. '21 Order Guides for 650/750 now available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 5 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said: Big thanks-again- to Ice Capades. '21 Order Guides for 650/750 now available. Where? Is there a link? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 5 minutes ago, 7Mary3 said: Where? Is there a link? 7M3, here ya go buddy... https://blueovalforums.com/forums/index.php?/topic/69036-2021-f-650f-750-order-guide-supplement/&tab=comments#comment-1093647 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 Thanks, just found them. Looks good, a lot of frame options, high GVW's on the 750's. Noticed tractors are diesel only and the 7.3L gas is only available with hydraulic brakes. Not too much of a surprise. Now all Ford needs is an F-850 with a 9L Cummins/Allison 3000 drive train and a tandem axle option....... 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 (edited) 23 minutes ago, 7Mary3 said: Now all Ford needs is an F-850 with a 9L Cummins/Allison 3000 drive train and a tandem axle option....... Edited February 29, 2020 by twintornados Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 Sorry, couldn't resist. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 3 hours ago, 7Mary3 said: Thanks, just found them. Looks good, a lot of frame options, high GVW's on the 750's. Noticed tractors are diesel only and the 7.3L gas is only available with hydraulic brakes. Not too much of a surprise. Now all Ford needs is an F-850 with a 9L Cummins/Allison 3000 drive train and a tandem axle option....... I do believe air brakes are on the horizon. Now why would they NOT be available now? Good question. Air on same chassis with a Power Stroke. You don't think Ford would do something to encourage buyers to favor the more more costly 6.7?? Nah. Can't believe they would be releasing the 7.3 without adequate compressor mounting points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 2 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said: I do believe air brakes are on the horizon. Now why would they NOT be available now? Good question. Air on same chassis with a Power Stroke. You don't think Ford would do something to encourage buyers to favor the more more costly 6.7?? Nah. Can't believe they would be releasing the 7.3 without adequate compressor mounting points. I was looking at a 7.3L out of a truck (250-350 I assume) and I couldn't clearly see were they would mount a compressor. The timing cover has integral brackets for the belt tensioner and idler pulleys, maybe with a different front cover they could mount a compressor. I figure most 7.3L's would be in <26,000# GVW F-650's with juice brakes anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 8 hours ago, 7Mary3 said: Sorry, couldn't resist. Oh I get it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snooter Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 I see one cant get 3.73 gearing in f250 with 7.3l...interesting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MY93SHO Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 (edited) 21 minutes ago, snooter said: I see one cant get 3.73 gearing in f250 with 7.3l...interesting What's interesting? Truck has a 10 speed instead of a 6 speed. Gm had changed their gearing with their 10 speed. (Diesel only, of course) Edited March 1, 2020 by MY93SHO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 21 hours ago, 7Mary3 said: I was looking at a 7.3L out of a truck (250-350 I assume) and I couldn't clearly see were they would mount a compressor. The timing cover has integral brackets for the belt tensioner and idler pulleys, maybe with a different front cover they could mount a compressor. I figure most 7.3L's would be in <26,000# GVW F-650's with juice brakes anyway. No doubt . But there are plenty of applications in class 7 where the 7.3 will be a good choice-in particular when full air is available. Keep in mind, the 7.3 puts out HP and torque numbers that exceed the old 401 and are close to the 477 Super Duty ratings of the 60's. And for the nth time, if an operator does not run high annual mileage, but needs a class 7 rating in terms of GVW and power, he will never payout the 6.7 premium in a reasonable period of time and the 7.3 will be a good compromise IMO. Take a typical building contractor. These guys often run class 6 and 7 trucks as a matter of convenience. Moving a big volume of dirt? Usually contract that out. But an occasional load of fill? Or a load of crushed stone?, Mason sand? etc etc. Or they own a Lull. Nice to have a class7 dump with air to the rear, a pintle and a tandem tag trailer. Been there-done that. Like I said, I do believe the 7.3 will be available with air before long. And yes I'm old school when an F-250 had a 272 V-8.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snooter Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 6 hours ago, MY93SHO said: What's interesting? Truck has a 10 speed instead of a 6 speed. Gm had changed their gearing with their 10 speed. (Diesel only, of course) ?huh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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