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3 minutes ago, Bob Rosadini said:

thx for the good  info.  When Hebe "bought" Ford's heavy truck business he sure did know what he was doing.  And Jac the Knife?  I don't think so.  But as many regulars will say here..."well HD trucks made no money".

I say when you are as big as Ford, diversity of product lines is/was a good thing.

 

Oh boy, Hebe.....there is a blast from the past.  I, and most others like me who dealt with him, hated that guy.   Darn near destroyed the two biggest truck makers (Freightliner and International) almost on his own......he was all about sales no matter the cost, didn't care about quality, resale value, or anything else.  

 

As far as when Daimler bought the heavy truck division from Ford and turned them into Sterling, that ended up being a terrible investment for Daimler and Hebe was the driving force behind that mistake.  They ran Sterling for 10 years before they had to shut it down with a fire sale in 2008......

 

 

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Hebe's Freightliner guaranteed price buyback program cost Daimler a lot of money.  His record at Navistar wasn't too good either, but Ustain's decision to go with 'advanced' EGR probably did more damage to International.

 

As far as Sterling was concerned, I heard the Hebe wanted Ford's dealer network and vocational presence more than anything else.  In retrospect, Freightliner seems to have earned a strong vocational presence on their own, irregardless of Sterling.  Although Freightliner bought the Ford HN80 for next to nothing, I never thought it was that great a truck.  Freightliner put a lot of money in it and even created a medium line (Acteera) but it was never a strong seller.  It's likely the HN80 would not have done any better under Ford ownership, so it's hard to say if the deal was really all that bad for Ford.

 

That's the story I was told about the 'big block' Detroits, that they were indeed done by Detroit here in the U.S..  I suspect the new medium diesels were done in Germany and 'tweaked' by Detroit.

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51 minutes ago, 7Mary3 said:

Hebe's Freightliner guaranteed price buyback program cost Daimler a lot of money.  His record at Navistar wasn't too good either, but Ustain's decision to go with 'advanced' EGR probably did more damage to International.

 

As far as Sterling was concerned, I heard the Hebe wanted Ford's dealer network and vocational presence more than anything else.  In retrospect, Freightliner seems to have earned a strong vocational presence on their own, irregardless of Sterling.  Although Freightliner bought the Ford HN80 for next to nothing, I never thought it was that great a truck.  Freightliner put a lot of money in it and even created a medium line (Acteera) but it was never a strong seller.  It's likely the HN80 would not have done any better under Ford ownership, so it's hard to say if the deal was really all that bad for Ford.

 

That's the story I was told about the 'big block' Detroits, that they were indeed done by Detroit here in the U.S..  I suspect the new medium diesels were done in Germany and 'tweaked' by Detroit.

 

Well Hebe (at least publicly) was as much of a defender of Internationals "advanced" (**cough**cough**) EGR system as anyone, so that was not a good look for him, either.    He did want the vocational dealer network, though, but they could have easily done that without paying all the money for the Ford trucks.  I mean heck, even today Freightliner's vocational model that essentially replaced the Ford/Sterling trucks is the 114SD which is simply a M2-106 with a different hood/engine.  That's all they needed to do back then but didn't trust the Freightliner dealers to sell & stock vocational units.  They also made the Western Star 4700 eventually, too, to handle the premium end of that 9-liter/13-liter vocational market.  

 

The Acterra was a flop simply due to the pricing being so much higher than the M2.  It made no sense......and the M2 had a bigger, nicer cab.  Back then the Sterling folks tried to run it separate from the Freightliner folks, and they didn't compare notes, so that's what happened.  

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The Acterra was interesting, basically a HN80 cab on an FL60/70 chassis.  In effect it was a close approximation to the HN80 medium duty F series replacement Ford was working on before the sell-out.  Since Ford intended to keep a nominal presence in the class 6/7 market after they sold out the heavy trucks to Freightliner, they stuck the then-new Super Duty cab on the old 1980-1998 F series medium duty chassis and created a 'new' medium duty conventional.  It lasted only a couple of years before for the Blue Diamond joint venture.

 

Funny Hebe originally intended Acterra to be a separate make that existing Sterling dealers could not sell unless they had an Acterra franchise.  That didn't go over to well with Sterling dealers, many of which still sold Ford medium duty trucks anyway.  That coupled with the pricing as you pointed out doomed Acterra from the start.    

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22 hours ago, iamweasel said:

 

Oh boy, Hebe.....there is a blast from the past.  I, and most others like me who dealt with him, hated that guy.   Darn near destroyed the two biggest truck makers (Freightliner and International) almost on his own......he was all about sales no matter the cost, didn't care about quality, resale value, or anything else.  

 

As far as when Daimler bought the heavy truck division from Ford and turned them into Sterling, that ended up being a terrible investment for Daimler and Hebe was the driving force behind that mistake.  They ran Sterling for 10 years before they had to shut it down with a fire sale in 2008......

 

 

Well appreciate your first hand  view of Hebe.  As a "civilian", the only thing I know is what I read about him in the various industry rags-and I have to say I think those "rags" were a lot more informative back then vs. today-wow-that is  like 22 yrs! 

 

As for Daimler's purchase of Ford for 300 mil, you really think that was a terrible idea?  The way I look at it, for 300 mil they bought out a competitor that was good for 8-10% of class 8 and what-15-20% of class 7?  And agree on  your point as to Hebe's view of Ford as the Vocational market leader. In the HDT article that covered the sale, he was quoted as saying that. Was I surprised when they shut it down?  No way- predictable playbook-look at history-what became of original Sterling after White bought them?  Diamond T and Reo? and then what became of DiamondReo?  And what became of Brockway?  And unfortunately, what MIGHT become of Mack?  Same old "synergism" speech IMO

18 hours ago, iamweasel said:

 

Well Hebe (at least publicly) was as much of a defender of Internationals "advanced" (**cough**cough**) EGR system as anyone, so that was not a good look for him, either.    He did want the vocational dealer network, though, but they could have easily done that without paying all the money for the Ford trucks.  I mean heck, even today Freightliner's vocational model that essentially replaced the Ford/Sterling trucks is the 114SD which is simply a M2-106 with a different hood/engine.  That's all they needed to do back then but didn't trust the Freightliner dealers to sell & stock vocational units.  They also made the Western Star 4700 eventually, too, to handle the premium end of that 9-liter/13-liter vocational market.  

 

The Acterra was a flop simply due to the pricing being so much higher than the M2.  It made no sense......and the M2 had a bigger, nicer cab.  Back then the Sterling folks tried to run it separate from the Freightliner folks, and they didn't compare notes, so that's what happened.  

As for today's 106 and 114, closest thing you can get to an old Louisville-at least from a visual?  And in '98, there was no M2- correct me if I'm wrong but F'liner had the F60/70?  Which was  based on the MB cabover?  Had a couple of the 112" (I think that is what they were) tandem tractors in my operation and they were nothing to brag about-and for sure a couple of steps below say an LT-9000 with the same powertrain.

16 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

The Acterra was interesting, basically a HN80 cab on an FL60/70 chassis.  In effect it was a close approximation to the HN80 medium duty F series replacement Ford was working on before the sell-out.  Since Ford intended to keep a nominal presence in the class 6/7 market after they sold out the heavy trucks to Freightliner, they stuck the then-new Super Duty cab on the old 1980-1998 F series medium duty chassis and created a 'new' medium duty conventional.  It lasted only a couple of years before for the Blue Diamond joint venture.

 

Funny Hebe originally intended Acterra to be a separate make that existing Sterling dealers could not sell unless they had an Acterra franchise.  That didn't go over to well with Sterling dealers, many of which still sold Ford medium duty trucks anyway.  That coupled with the pricing as you pointed out doomed Acterra from the start.    

True about the Acterra franchise issue.  I was told by a Ford HD dealer principal that the dealers were all set to bring suit over that issue

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6 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

Well appreciate your first hand  view of Hebe.  As a "civilian", the only thing I know is what I read about him in the various industry rags-and I have to say I think those "rags" were a lot more informative back then vs. today-wow-that is  like 22 yrs! 

 

As for Daimler's purchase of Ford for 300 mil, you really think that was a terrible idea?  The way I look at it, for 300 mil they bought out a competitor that was good for 8-10% of class 8 and what-15-20% of class 7?  And agree on  your point as to Hebe's view of Ford as the Vocational market leader. In the HDT article that covered the sale, he was quoted as saying that. Was I surprised when they shut it down?  No way- predictable playbook-look at history-what became of original Sterling after White bought them?  Diamond T and Reo? and then what became of DiamondReo?  And what became of Brockway?  And unfortunately, what MIGHT become of Mack?  Same old "synergism" speech IMO

As for today's 106 and 114, closest thing you can get to an old Louisville-at least from a visual?  And in '98, there was no M2- correct me if I'm wrong but F'liner had the F60/70?  Which was  based on the MB cabover?  Had a couple of the 112" (I think that is what they were) tandem tractors in my operation and they were nothing to brag about-and for sure a couple of steps below say an LT-9000 with the same powertrain.

True about the Acterra franchise issue.  I was told by a Ford HD dealer principal that the dealers were all set to bring suit over that issue

 

I think Daimler spent the money on a franchise that was going to die on it's own, so those up-front costs plus all the costs while owning the Sterling brand, added up to a heck of a lot more money compared to just making a new hood for the upcoming M2.  (Which you are right, the FL's were the models in the 90's and the M2 came in 2002 I believe.)  Even now, the M2 cab is a legacy cabover cab hence the rounded interior floor.....but that does allow them to package the batteries under the cab, yet still above the fuel tank for a nice clean back of cab setup.  :)  

 

I worked for Ford (mostly in the Truck Division) in the 90's and 2000's and the Ford Heavy Duty and F-650/750 programs were huge money losers.  (Daimler didn't know this, of course, LOL.)  With the upcoming EPA07/EPA10 emissions changes on the horizon there was no way Ford was going to invest what we necessary to meet those requirements on a heavy duty line that was already bleeding money as it was.    The only reason the F-650/750 made it until today is because the marketing folks swore up and down if they pulled those trucks away from Navistar's evil grip they could make money on them.  (As well as ditching the expensive Allison/Cummins options for a lower cost in-house powertrain.)  Even now, given the numbers I saw I just don't think the F-650/750 makes money, and even if they do, it can't be enough to really justify keeping around.  Ford's biggest arguement to keep those trucks afloat is because they think they'll lose F-250-550 sales if they don't have the F-650/750 , which I totally disagree with.  

 

The Ford HD dealers HATED Hebe with a passion.  Hebe was a clown, and amazingly so many people trusted him to run their businesses.  (Ooops!)   They tried that separate franchise stuff not only with Acterra but the short-lived Bullet/360 as well, in addition to Detroit, and everything else they could put restrictions on.  They spent all that money to buy the Ford HD product, but then did everything possible to piss-off the dealers that were supposed to sell those trucks for them.  (Then they wondered why those Ford Sterling dealers would not stock Acterras/360's/Bullets yet had a yard full of F650/750 / LCF's / F-450/550.  Hell everyone knew the LCF was a piece of junk but it was priced way better than the 360 and Ford was so much easier to deal with.)

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1 hour ago, iamweasel said:

 

.....The only reason the F-650/750 made it until today is because the marketing folks swore up and down if they pulled those trucks away from Navistar's evil grip they could make money on them.  (As well as ditching the expensive Allison/Cummins options for a lower cost in-house powertrain.)  Even now, given the numbers I saw I just don't think the F-650/750 makes money, and even if they do, it can't be enough to really justify keeping around.  Ford's biggest arguement to keep those trucks afloat is because they think they'll lose F-250-550 sales if they don't have the F-650/750 , which I totally disagree with.  

 

I believe that is indeed a widely held belief and from my perspective (35+ years in utility and municipal fleet maintenance) it is not true to any great extent anymore.  No question it was true in the past, I remember when Chrysler was the biggest in fleet sales and their success was due in part at the time to their full vehicle line which included everything from police cars to school buses to heavy duty diesel trucks.  Another reason was they practically gave vehicles away to fleets.  'One stop shopping' made things a little easier for purchasing departments, parts and service were simplified to a certain extent, but those advantages just were not enough to justify sticking with one make all the time.  As an example, the fleet I work for now buys Ford and Chevy for light trucks, our latest class 4 and 5 purchases have been Chevy and Isuzu, and  class 6 and above are almost exclusively Freightliner.   

 

Always interested to hear from someone on the manufacturer;s side, thanks.

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1 hour ago, 7Mary3 said:

 

I believe that is indeed a widely held belief and from my perspective (35+ years in utility and municipal fleet maintenance) it is not true to any great extent anymore.  No question it was true in the past, I remember when Chrysler was the biggest in fleet sales and their success was due in part at the time to their full vehicle line which included everything from police cars to school buses to heavy duty diesel trucks.  Another reason was they practically gave vehicles away to fleets.  'One stop shopping' made things a little easier for purchasing departments, parts and service were simplified to a certain extent, but those advantages just were not enough to justify sticking with one make all the time.  As an example, the fleet I work for now buys Ford and Chevy for light trucks, our latest class 4 and 5 purchases have been Chevy and Isuzu, and  class 6 and above are almost exclusively Freightliner.   

 

Always interested to hear from someone on the manufacturer;s side, thanks.

 

They referred to that as losing adjacency sales.  I did a big study on that and my conclusion was that most people that owned F-650/750's also had a bunch of other light duty Ford trucks, but those companies who were strictly class 6-8 rarely bought Ford 650's and 750's products.  That meant if the 650/750 were gone, it really wouldn't have impacted the F-550 and below sales.  It was fairly conclusive but of course nobody in Marketing wanted to believe it.  :)  

 

I do believe there is some merit to the adjacency sales argument between classes 1-3, and maybe you can throw class 4-5 in there, too, but class 6-8 is a whole other type of buyer.  The only reason Ford does any meaningful volume with the F650-750 now is due to the gas engine offered which many people desire to avoid the emissions equipment on the newer trucks.  Freightliner dealers have been begging Daimler for a conventional gas engine for the M2 but they never got it.  

 

(PS, if your company is running diesel M2's I would strongly recommend they start using the DD5/DD8 engines.  They are far superior to the Cummins B6.7/L9.   Cummins has gone downhill over the last 10 years....)

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5 hours ago, iamweasel said:

 

I think Daimler spent the money on a franchise that was going to die on it's own, so those up-front costs plus all the costs while owning the Sterling brand, added up to a heck of a lot more money compared to just making a new hood for the upcoming M2.  (Which you are right, the FL's were the models in the 90's and the M2 came in 2002 I believe.)  Even now, the M2 cab is a legacy cabover cab hence the rounded interior floor.....but that does allow them to package the batteries under the cab, yet still above the fuel tank for a nice clean back of cab setup.  :)  

 

I worked for Ford (mostly in the Truck Division) in the 90's and 2000's and the Ford Heavy Duty and F-650/750 programs were huge money losers.  (Daimler didn't know this, of course, LOL.)  With the upcoming EPA07/EPA10 emissions changes on the horizon there was no way Ford was going to invest what we necessary to meet those requirements on a heavy duty line that was already bleeding money as it was.    The only reason the F-650/750 made it until today is because the marketing folks swore up and down if they pulled those trucks away from Navistar's evil grip they could make money on them.  (As well as ditching the expensive Allison/Cummins options for a lower cost in-house powertrain.)  Even now, given the numbers I saw I just don't think the F-650/750 makes money, and even if they do, it can't be enough to really justify keeping around.  Ford's biggest arguement to keep those trucks afloat is because they think they'll lose F-250-550 sales if they don't have the F-650/750 , which I totally disagree with.  

 

The Ford HD dealers HATED Hebe with a passion.  Hebe was a clown, and amazingly so many people trusted him to run their businesses.  (Ooops!)   They tried that separate franchise stuff not only with Acterra but the short-lived Bullet/360 as well, in addition to Detroit, and everything else they could put restrictions on.  They spent all that money to buy the Ford HD product, but then did everything possible to piss-off the dealers that were supposed to sell those trucks for them.  (Then they wondered why those Ford Sterling dealers would not stock Acterras/360's/Bullets yet had a yard full of F650/750 / LCF's / F-450/550.  Hell everyone knew the LCF was a piece of junk but it was priced way better than the 360 and Ford was so much easier to deal with.)

Thanks again for  your insights.  Not often that we have someone post who was actually in on the "action"-or better yet-lack of action.

As for HD (class 7 and ? and 650/750 being huge losers, perhaps you could comment on the decision to commit to HN-80 for a '96 introduction and then sh*t can it 2 years later   I  have to believe that the  HN 80 program was big bucks and the approval for that program had to have come from a high level-and with a lot of analysis to go along with it.  And 650-750 didn't happen until 2 years later (2000 right with production at Cautilan?

As for EPA emissions regs on the horizon, as Ford was no longer making truck diesels, wasn't that a pass through???

 

Another point on Hebe, I've heard it said that he was the guy that absolutely destroyed the used class 8 market with some of his "Mega" deals to the likes of JB Hunt with guaranteed residual values?  Any truth to that?

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, iamweasel said:

 

(PS, if your company is running diesel M2's I would strongly recommend they start using the DD5/DD8 engines.  They are far superior to the Cummins B6.7/L9.   Cummins has gone downhill over the last 10 years....)

 

We run M2-112's with Cummins ISL-G natural gas engines.  A lot less problems than current generation diesels, drivers and mechanics love them.  Agreed the new mid-range Detroits are fine engines, heard good things about them.  I expect Freightliner will be phasing out Cummins going forward.  And they should offer a gas engine on the M2-106, they offer the PSI 8.8L LNG engine in the M2 through FCCC, no idea why they don't offer the gasoline version as well.

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On 8/11/2020 at 10:41 AM, Bob Rosadini said:

thx for the good  info.  When Hebe "bought" Ford's heavy truck business he sure did know what he was doing.  And Jac the Knife?  I don't think so.  But as many regulars will say here..."well HD trucks made no money".

I was there when this happened.  The quote from Jack Nasser was "HD truck only makes about 3%-5% profit.  We could make more profit by putting that money in the bank !"

 

I don't know where the money went from the sale of HD truck, but that profit was year after year, with next to no engineering or production investment.  And yes, it did help to see the Blue Oval on those rigs running down the road.

 

Class 8, like the old L-Series and AeroMax, is hard to make a profit when the customer demands certain engine, transmission axle combinations.  Effectively there is no profit on component that are made by others.  After the Blue Diamond disaster, Ford was smart by bringing back the F650/F750 with in-house powertrains. Being able to use the same "base" powertrain from Class 3 through the bottom of Class 8 is a brilliant idea.

 

The only thing holding Ford back from expanding deeper into Class 8 is the cost of developing an large, emissions compliant I6 diesel aimed exclusively at Class 4 and up and the cost of any necessary upgrades to their current 6R140/10R140 transmissions.

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13 hours ago, iamweasel said:

  Hell everyone knew the LCF was a piece of junk but it was priced way better than the 360 and Ford was so much easier to deal with.)

 

The only thing that was "junk" on LCF was the engine....now, re-imagine LCF with a 7.3L Godzilla gasser.....that would cause night terrors in every Isuzu HD truck exec for sure...

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I've said this many times before, but when Ford got rid of class 8, many utilities,  municipalities and state DOT operations, who had been 95% percent Ford from cars to class 8 in the 60's thru 80's/early 90's, they had to scramble and look elsewhere for class 8.  They realized that there were other brands besides Ford!  It was a rude awakening!  Then Freightliner and International said, hey, we make class 6 and 7 trucks too!  Let us give you some quotes!  Then, when Daimler bought Chrysler, they said, hey we make class 1 thru 5 trucks and cars!  Wanna quote?  Sorry, but when Ford ditched class 8, the dominoes came tumbling down!  Now all the entities I mentioned above have so many non-Ford vehicles in their parking lots and garages, it actually sickens me!

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10 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

Thanks again for  your insights.  Not often that we have someone post who was actually in on the "action"-or better yet-lack of action.

As for HD (class 7 and ? and 650/750 being huge losers, perhaps you could comment on the decision to commit to HN-80 for a '96 introduction and then sh*t can it 2 years later   I  have to believe that the  HN 80 program was big bucks and the approval for that program had to have come from a high level-and with a lot of analysis to go along with it.  And 650-750 didn't happen until 2 years later (2000 right with production at Cautilan?

As for EPA emissions regs on the horizon, as Ford was no longer making truck diesels, wasn't that a pass through???

 

Another point on Hebe, I've heard it said that he was the guy that absolutely destroyed the used class 8 market with some of his "Mega" deals to the likes of JB Hunt with guaranteed residual values?  Any truth to that?

 

 

 

 

The HN-80 stuff was a little before my time in the truck division (I started in Marketing & Sales and worked there in the 90's) so I don't know all the details on that, but I will say the heavy truck group was always a bit of a cluster.  Many decisions were made without the proper analysis (i.e. don't ever let Marketing people do business cases!)  simply because it was easy to "trick" people in the company with overly-optimistic analysis due to so many people not understanding the heavy truck business.  :)

 

As far as the pass-through costs on the EPA07/10 stuff, if you used Cummins then yes, some of those costs were pass-through but every OEM still had to do their own testing and certifications which cost a lot of money.  Plus, even if Ford bought a Cummins system there is still a lot of Ford-specific wiring and DEF-system related parts that needed to be developed, etc.  Plus the old school wiring and electronic wasn't going to get it done, either.  Daimler estimated it would have cost $600 million to do a refreshed cab for Sterling that would have met the EPA 10 requirements and given that, they decided to shut it down.  (I do think some of that $600M was for a new dash, etc, so not 100% of that was EPA10 related.)

 

As far as Hebe and the guaranteed buybacks.....100% true.  He would buy market share with that kind of stuff - that's all he was ever good at.  One of the worst execs I have ever encountered (not to mention he was a first class jerk) and I cannot comprehend how he snowballed so many people into thinking he knew what he was doing.  Salespeople loved him, because he helped move the metal, but aside from that he was a disaster.  For supposedly being such a good sales guy he certainly didn't know how to sell a product - he only sold them on price.  

 

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3 hours ago, theoldwizard said:

I was there when this happened.  The quote from Jack Nasser was "HD truck only makes about 3%-5% profit.  We could make more profit by putting that money in the bank !"

 

I don't know where the money went from the sale of HD truck, but that profit was year after year, with next to no engineering or production investment.  And yes, it did help to see the Blue Oval on those rigs running down the road.

 

Class 8, like the old L-Series and AeroMax, is hard to make a profit when the customer demands certain engine, transmission axle combinations.  Effectively there is no profit on component that are made by others.  After the Blue Diamond disaster, Ford was smart by bringing back the F650/F750 with in-house powertrains. Being able to use the same "base" powertrain from Class 3 through the bottom of Class 8 is a brilliant idea.

 

The only thing holding Ford back from expanding deeper into Class 8 is the cost of developing an large, emissions compliant I6 diesel aimed exclusively at Class 4 and up and the cost of any necessary upgrades to their current 6R140/10R140 transmissions.

 

Ford needs a new cab if they want to get serious in class 8.  That F650/750 cab is just not going to cut it.  I feel claustrophobic whenever I get into one of those, while Freightliner and International  (amongst others) have nice wide and tall cabs with plenty of belly room, too.   (Not to mention way better visability and hosts of options that Ford does not offer.)

 

Now if we're just talking a "baby 8" tandem axle F-750 with their current powertrains then yeah, I think that should be do-able , but that is such a limited market that it may not be worth the effort for Ford.

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3 hours ago, twintornados said:

 

The only thing that was "junk" on LCF was the engine....now, re-imagine LCF with a 7.3L Godzilla gasser.....that would cause night terrors in every Isuzu HD truck exec for sure...

For sure-from everything I have heard the Mazda cab was as good as any of the other small LCF's.  The Powerstroke that went in it?  Kiss of death!  And for sure what a home run that truck would b e today with a 7.3.

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4 hours ago, theoldwizard said:

I was there when this happened.  The quote from Jack Nasser was "HD truck only makes about 3%-5% profit.  We could make more profit by putting that money in the bank !"

 

I don't know where the money went from the sale of HD truck, but that profit was year after year, with next to no engineering or production investment.  And yes, it did help to see the Blue Oval on those rigs running down the road.

 

Class 8, like the old L-Series and AeroMax, is hard to make a profit when the customer demands certain engine, transmission axle combinations.  Effectively there is no profit on component that are made by others.  After the Blue Diamond disaster, Ford was smart by bringing back the F650/F750 with in-house powertrains. Being able to use the same "base" powertrain from Class 3 through the bottom of Class 8 is a brilliant idea.

 

The only thing holding Ford back from expanding deeper into Class 8 is the cost of developing an large, emissions compliant I6 diesel aimed exclusively at Class 4 and up and the cost of any necessary upgrades to their current 6R140/10R140 transmissions.

As for your comment I highlighted, I remember sitting at a major Boston area intersection one morning  shortly after the sale was announced.  there was a big Blue Oval in my rear view  mirror and within eyesight I think  there were another 4 or 5 waiting for the lights to change.

 

And I do understand the profitability associated with a  100 % in house power train.  But I think an outsourced engine and an Allison would if anything lower the unit production cost for the entire product line.  That outsourced engine/trans would I'm sure carry a premium and there are enough buyers out there that would pay that premium.  And again, I am not talking about expanding into tandem sleepers, I'm talking about the true vocational truck to include the distribution (non sleeper) tractor market.

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I remember seeing dozens of ex-J.B. Hunt International cabovers sitting at Freightliner dealers back in the 90's, a result of Hebe's 'sweetheart' deals.  Freightliner dealers couldn't give those trucks away, I think most of them eventually got dumped in Russia.  They probably got good use out of them. 

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21 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

For sure-from everything I have heard the Mazda cab was as good as any of the other small LCF's.  The Powerstroke that went in it?  Kiss of death!  And for sure what a home run that truck would b e today with a 7.3.

 

The new Mazda Titan and JMC COE look amazingly similar....Would be interesting indeed if Ford brought in an out-sourced cab from JMC and put it on an existing chassis for North America..... F53 / F59 chassis, galvanized frame....

But, I have beaten that drum for a long time....I don't see it ever happening. It would be "nice"....but, who knows the truck market better...me, or FoMoCo?

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I think that Mazda is using the narrow Isuzu 'Hexacube' cab off the ELF.  The JMC has a Chinese copy of an Isuzu cab on it.  Very similar, but not quite.  There is a company in Southern California named Greenkraft that is importing Chinese JAC trucks with no powertrains and installing PSI 6.0L and 8.8L CNG engines and Allison transmissions.  Having some local success.  The JAC cab is also very similar to Isuzu's. 

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Mazda Titan is just a rebadge of Isuzu Elf. Mazda no long makes any trucks.

 

Jiangling Group (JMCG) had a JV with Isuzu before it was restructured into JMC as a Ford controlled JV/subsidiary. In fact, after Ford absorbed JMC, Jiangling setup a new JV with Isuzu call Jiangxi Isuzu. So it is entirely unclear if JMC still has licensing agreement with Isuzu to use the Elf cab.

 

JAC (a completely different company) cabs are unauthorized copy of Isuzu Elf for sure.

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37 minutes ago, bzcat said:

Mazda Titan is just a rebadge of Isuzu Elf. Mazda no long makes any trucks.

 

Jiangling Group (JMCG) had a JV with Isuzu before it was restructured into JMC as a Ford controlled JV/subsidiary. In fact, after Ford absorbed JMC, Jiangling setup a new JV with Isuzu call Jiangxi Isuzu. So it is entirely unclear if JMC still has licensing agreement with Isuzu to use the Elf cab.

 

JAC (a completely different company) cabs are unauthorized copy of Isuzu Elf for sure.

I'm shocked-a Chinese company using someone elses proprietary design?

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1 hour ago, bzcat said:

Mazda Titan is just a rebadge of Isuzu Elf. Mazda no long makes any trucks.

 

Jiangling Group (JMCG) had a JV with Isuzu before it was restructured into JMC as a Ford controlled JV/subsidiary. In fact, after Ford absorbed JMC, Jiangling setup a new JV with Isuzu call Jiangxi Isuzu. So it is entirely unclear if JMC still has licensing agreement with Isuzu to use the Elf cab.

 

JAC (a completely different company) cabs are unauthorized copy of Isuzu Elf for sure.

 

Imagine that!  I have heard JAC referred to as 'Just A Copy'!  Isuzu has a very good reputation in China, so anything that looks like an Isuzu must be good too, I guess.

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1 hour ago, 7Mary3 said:

 

Imagine that!  I have heard JAC referred to as 'Just A Copy'!  Isuzu has a very good reputation in China, so anything that looks like an Isuzu must be good too, I guess.

 

Isuzu has licensed different generation of Elf cab to different Chinese truck manufacturer for a long time (including to Jiangling) and they all claim to use "Isuzu technology". So because of that, it has become common to just copy Isuzu if you are trying to sell a cab forward truck.

 

It's the same with Toyota Hiace and Mercedes Sprinter, both which were licensed to several different company and then widely copied by everyone else in China trying to sell the same type of vans.

 

JAC, which we already mentioned does both... it has a Isuzu knock off cab forward truck and a Sprinter knock off van. It also sells a compact van that looks inspired by Nissan NV200.

 

n721_12570.jpg

 

1200px-JAC_Sunray_LWB_China_2015-04-10.j

 

1200px-JAC_Refine_M3_01_Auto_China_2014-

 

But that's not all... JAC also sells a sedan that will look very familiar to Fiesta owners.

 

1200px-JAC_Heyue_A30_02_Auto_China_2014-

Edited by bzcat
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