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On 8/12/2020 at 4:07 PM, iamweasel said:

 

I think Daimler spent the money on a franchise that was going to die on it's own, so those up-front costs plus all the costs while owning the Sterling brand, added up to a heck of a lot more money compared to just making a new hood for the upcoming M2.  (Which you are right, the FL's were the models in the 90's and the M2 came in 2002 I believe.)  Even now, the M2 cab is a legacy cabover cab hence the rounded interior floor.....but that does allow them to package the batteries under the cab, yet still above the fuel tank for a nice clean back of cab setup.  :)  

 

I worked for Ford (mostly in the Truck Division) in the 90's and 2000's and the Ford Heavy Duty and F-650/750 programs were huge money losers.  (Daimler didn't know this, of course, LOL.)  With the upcoming EPA07/EPA10 emissions changes on the horizon there was no way Ford was going to invest what we necessary to meet those requirements on a heavy duty line that was already bleeding money as it was.    The only reason the F-650/750 made it until today is because the marketing folks swore up and down if they pulled those trucks away from Navistar's evil grip they could make money on them.  (As well as ditching the expensive Allison/Cummins options for a lower cost in-house powertrain.)  Even now, given the numbers I saw I just don't think the F-650/750 makes money, and even if they do, it can't be enough to really justify keeping around.  Ford's biggest arguement to keep those trucks afloat is because they think they'll lose F-250-550 sales if they don't have the F-650/750 , which I totally disagree with.  

 

The Ford HD dealers HATED Hebe with a passion.  Hebe was a clown, and amazingly so many people trusted him to run their businesses.  (Ooops!)   They tried that separate franchise stuff not only with Acterra but the short-lived Bullet/360 as well, in addition to Detroit, and everything else they could put restrictions on.  They spent all that money to buy the Ford HD product, but then did everything possible to piss-off the dealers that were supposed to sell those trucks for them.  (Then they wondered why those Ford Sterling dealers would not stock Acterras/360's/Bullets yet had a yard full of F650/750 / LCF's / F-450/550.  Hell everyone knew the LCF was a piece of junk but it was priced way better than the 360 and Ford was so much easier to deal with.)

The reason why Ford was losing sales in the late 90's/early 2000's was because they didn't keep the lineup fresh and updated.  The first generation L-series had a run of about 30 years!  It was getting old, that's why Ford did the refresh in 1996!  And Daimler/Freight knew they had to get rid of it!  Ford still had a vibrant network of truck-only dealers!  When Daimler bought it, the dealership network collapsed.  You can destroy a building in one minute!  But it takes a year or 2 to rebuild it!, You can destroy a car line or truck line in one month!  But it takes 10 to 20 years to rebuild it!  Look at Lincoln and Cadillac!  They've never FULLY recovered!

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3 hours ago, tbone said:

I thought you big truck guys would appreciate this neat rig...

 

https://fordauthority.com/2020/08/1956-ford-c800-is-the-ultimate-high-dollar-classic-car-hauler-video/

I tell ya Tbone, There was a reason in '57 Ford came out with a tilt cab C series.  What a way to spend 250G's!  And a V-6 5.9 Cummins!  Must be a "one of a kind" .  Also appreciate the explanation as to just what that "shifter" was attached to.  Nice E track cargo restraint system in the floor-too bad he didn't use it to tie down that Chevelle-then again he probably did when  he took the car out to store the stairs?

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  • 2 weeks later...

Something for you old guys.....On another site I frequent (Bigmacktrucks) there are a lot of Aussies that are regular posters.  Someone posted a question as to popularity of big Fords in the "old days".  Reply was they  were at one time the market leader in the Louisville era- assembled in Brisbane I believe.  Attached is typical road  train being pulled by an LTL

Aussie Truckin' Pics.. - Antique and Classic Mack Trucks General Discussion - BigMackTrucks.com.html

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8 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

Something for you old guys.....On another site I frequent (Bigmacktrucks) there are a lot of Aussies that are regular posters.  Someone posted a question as to popularity of big Fords in the "old days".  Reply was they  were at one time the market leader in the Louisville era- assembled in Brisbane I believe.  Attached is typical road  train being pulled by an LTL

Aussie Truckin' Pics.. - Antique and Classic Mack Trucks General Discussion - BigMackTrucks.com.html

About 25 years ago, I met an Aussie trucker who would come to the States every few years, buy American big rigs, break them down, ship them Down Under, and reassemble them, making enough profit to pay for the ones he kept because it was that much cheaper than buying them in Oz. I can't remember which ones he preferred, but he loved American trucks. I can almost hear him now, talking about how "yes, with twenty years of abuse and neglect, you too can have a body like this." He had 20-year-old tattoos with some of the most brilliant colors I've ever seen, an obsession with "triple-fouah Mahlin" (.444 Marlin) rifles, and a method of folding an Aussie $10 bill that turned Liz into a very rude picture... 

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2 hours ago, SoonerLS said:

About 25 years ago, I met an Aussie trucker who would come to the States every few years, buy American big rigs, break them down, ship them Down Under, and reassemble them, making enough profit to pay for the ones he kept because it was that much cheaper than buying them in Oz. I can't remember which ones he preferred, but he loved American trucks. I can almost hear him now, talking about how "yes, with twenty years of abuse and neglect, you too can have a body like this." He had 20-year-old tattoos with some of the most brilliant colors I've ever seen, an obsession with "triple-fouah Mahlin" (.444 Marlin) rifles, and a method of folding an Aussie $10 bill that turned Liz into a very rude picture... 

Hah! Never had the pleasure of meeting one, but I can tell you by their posts, "colorful" is the best term I could use to describe them. And there are always favorable comments about big Fords-unfortunately, memories.

Marlins? I'm not a gun nut but the nicest one I own is a 39A Mountie that I got when I was 14.  Lever Action 22.  When they were an independent they were produced about 10 miles from my house in Connecticut.  Today I believe they are owned by Remington but still produced in USA.

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American big rig trucks used to be very common in Australia for cross country and outback hauling. All the big American brands had distributors in Australia. But more recently, I think European trucks have gained favor so it's more even split but you still see new Freightliners, Navistar, and Paccar trucks. It's really the only market outside North America where US-style front engine big rigs have a sizable market share. 

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On 9/2/2020 at 9:28 AM, bzcat said:

American big rig trucks used to be very common in Australia for cross country and outback hauling. All the big American brands had distributors in Australia. But more recently, I think European trucks have gained favor so it's more even split but you still see new Freightliners, Navistar, and Paccar trucks. It's really the only market outside North America where US-style front engine big rigs have a sizable market share. 

 

I believe Isuzu is #1 in Australia these days.  They sell some very impressive class 8 tractors and class 6/7 all-wheel-drive models we don't see here.    

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Well been about 6 weeks since I swung through the  Altech installation facility here in nearby Sterling MA.  As I mentioned last time, yard was full of mostly big class 8's .  Previously yard would be jammed with class 4/5's-mostly Fords. But it appeared they have changed the purpose of this facility.;

For one thing they installed a large concrete pad where I assume they do their test routines on these very big buckets-or should I say, it appears most of them have huge Effer folding cranes.

One good sign- a new 750 Power Stroke-first OAP Ford (650/750).  This one was I'm guessing a derated one (25,999 gvw) as it had juice brakes. But a good sign.  How about it-I know one of the regulars on BON has a son who works for Altech- any clue if they are realigning their production by facility?  I mentioned the concrete pad but they also cleared out a wooded area in back of plant and it is stacked with new Effer booms-including some very big ones.

Attached is shot of 750 plus a beast of a Mack Granite with a big Effer mounted on its ass end.

Ford 750 Altech 9:20.jpeg

Mack Granite 9:20 Altech rear.jpeg

Mack Granite Altech 9:20-front.jpeg

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On 9/3/2020 at 11:37 PM, theoldwizard said:

Any word on the Powerstroke 3.0L sales in F150 ?

 

Why haven't they offered that in the Transit ?

I can tell you this, of the 62,000 new F150s advertised on cars.com, only 316 of them are 3.0 Powerstrokes.

Equally curious, only 15,100 of those F150s are 5.0 V8s.

Edited by jpd80
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On 9/10/2020 at 7:14 PM, Bob Rosadini said:

Well been about 6 weeks since I swung through the  Altech installation facility here in nearby Sterling MA.  As I mentioned last time, yard was full of mostly big class 8's .  Previously yard would be jammed with class 4/5's-mostly Fords. But it appeared they have changed the purpose of this facility.;

For one thing they installed a large concrete pad where I assume they do their test routines on these very big buckets-or should I say, it appears most of them have huge Effer folding cranes.

One good sign- a new 750 Power Stroke-first OAP Ford (650/750).  This one was I'm guessing a derated one (25,999 gvw) as it had juice brakes. But a good sign.  How about it-I know one of the regulars on BON has a son who works for Altech- any clue if they are realigning their production by facility?  I mentioned the concrete pad but they also cleared out a wooded area in back of plant and it is stacked with new Effer booms-including some very big ones.

Attached is shot of 750 plus a beast of a Mack Granite with a big Effer mounted on its ass end.

 

 

 

 

Wow, Effer cranes.  That brings back some memories.  Back in late 1989, we ordered up a new GMC TopKick 7500, first of the 1990-2002 generation.  Had the the then new Cat 3116 with an Allison.  It was what we call a 'plate truck' used for carrying steel street plates for temporarily covering street excavations.  Had heavy flat bed with a Effer crane mounted between the bed and cab.  The truck itself was pretty good, never had any trouble out of it outside of routine maintenance.  The crane was completely another story, quickly earning the nickname F'ing instead of Effer.  It was awkward to operate (seemed to me that everything moved in an arc) and leaked constantly.  This thing leaked from places I didn't think it was possible to leak from!  Of course the hydraulic fittings were some oddball French standard you had to buy directly from the manufacturer.  Don't think it ever passed an OSHA 90 day on the first try, always needed something.  We kept it going for better than 12 years (by throwing a lot of money at it) and never bought another.  Effer cranes must be a lot better now.  At least I hope they are.....      

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10 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

 

Wow, Effer cranes.  That brings back some memories.  Back in late 1989, we ordered up a new GMC TopKick 7500, first of the 1990-2002 generation.  Had the the then new Cat 3116 with an Allison.  It was what we call a 'plate truck' used for carrying steel street plates for temporarily covering street excavations.  Had heavy flat bed with a Effer crane mounted between the bed and cab.  The truck itself was pretty good, never had any trouble out of it outside of routine maintenance.  The crane was completely another story, quickly earning the nickname F'ing instead of Effer.  It was awkward to operate (seemed to me that everything moved in an arc) and leaked constantly.  This thing leaked from places I didn't think it was possible to leak from!  Of course the hydraulic fittings were some oddball French standard you had to buy directly from the manufacturer.  Don't think it ever passed an OSHA 90 day on the first try, always needed something.  We kept it going for better than 12 years (by throwing a lot of money at it) and never bought another.  Effer cranes must be a lot better now.  At least I hope they are.....      

7m--check this out  I guess Effer has come a long way.  This too was at Altech.  I was told it is a 120 footer and price tag was close to 3 mil! I couldn't understand why someone would buy such a crane vs a typical telescopic but I gather customer is a NYC operator and this works better in close confines.  Again, what is max boom length on a 120' telescopic?  30 or 40 ft?  But I guess for that kind of money there is a need for this complexity.

96A891FD-B77D-433E-969A-ED1FF5303D15.jpeg

DED85952-157E-48E4-B8AD-01A215B67138.jpeg

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5 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

I wonder if Altec is distributing Effer now.  I would hate to be responsible for that 120 footer.  Inspections must take 2 weeks!

Hah- very true.  Can you imagine the electronics and the safety systems??  I saw an article on the buyer and they have I guess quite a few Effers- big nothing like these .  I wonder if they unfold with some sort of program that controls multiple sections as a group.  I can't imagine individual valve bodies for each of these sections??

I thought Effer was German but it is an Italian co. that has been around for a long time and I guess specialized in hydraulics from day 1.

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The guy who is going to remove my downed tree was down the street and he has some  F250 thru 450's.  He also has some F750's including at least one brand new OAP Power Stroke..........Bob!  When he removes my tree, I'm going to ask him point blank if Ford did not make mediums, would you be buying Ford class 1 thru 5.  Let's see what he says.  In all honesty, he probably will say yes, since around here in New England Ford class 1 thru 5 is king.  Most outfits with International and Freightliner mediums have Ford light duty.  On another note, anybody know why HDT mag doesn't print truck sales anymore?  Did a mfr. complain, maybe Hino, since I was pointing out their incremental monthly sales?

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14 hours ago, Joe771476 said:

The guy who is going to remove my downed tree was down the street and he has some  F250 thru 450's.  He also has some F750's including at least one brand new OAP Power Stroke..........Bob!  When he removes my tree, I'm going to ask him point blank if Ford did not make mediums, would you be buying Ford class 1 thru 5.  Let's see what he says.  In all honesty, he probably will say yes, since around here in New England Ford class 1 thru 5 is king.  Most outfits with International and Freightliner mediums have Ford light duty.  On another note, anybody know why HDT mag doesn't print truck sales anymore?  Did a mfr. complain, maybe Hino, since I was pointing out their incremental monthly sales?

Joe- Interesting to see what his answer to your question is.  I'm assuming closest Ford Commercial dealer for you is Tasca in Berlin now that Interstate is gone.

No clue why HDT stopped publishing the stats but my guess is I think a couple of the manufacturers stopped publishing monthly stats and were now mjust doing quarterly.  

On your Hino question I posed one myself on the Mack site asking "where are the new class 7/8 Hino's?-they have been out a year now and nothing"

One of the guys who is very knowledgeable on the manufacturer scene said they failed their emissions tests!  Ugh

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I know this is hard to hear but Ford's monthly sales of class 6 is around 1,500 and class 7 is barely  10% of that.

I have no idea of the break out of F600 vs F650 but the total hints at sales bleed away from F650.

 

Ford's plan from class 5 down makes sense but I don't know how it justifies a new F-650/F-750 with such low sales

knowing that the F-600 is being offered to see how buyers respond and scoop up easy gasoline sales.

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9 hours ago, jpd80 said:

I know this is hard to hear but Ford's monthly sales of class 6 is around 1,500 and class 7 is barely  10% of that.

I have no idea of the break out of F600 vs F650 but the total hints at sales bleed away from F650.

 

Ford's plan from class 5 down makes sense but I don't know how it justifies a new F-650/F-750 with such low sales

knowing that the F-600 is being offered to see how buyers respond and scoop up easy gasoline sales.

JP- No  doubt F-600 will be a home run.  The 22,000 GVW in a less "intimidating" size will  satisfy a large percentage of current 650 customers-in particular U-Haul! 

 

As for the current Ford numbers, I can only make my usual case-...those  numbers are largely due to  the limited power train choice-and other dumb moves such as not offering air  brakes on a 33,000lb vehicle unless it is a Power Stroke.  What was the motivation there?  -some genius said.."hey-that will be an incentive if they really want a Ford to opt for the 12,000 buck PS premium."   And of course, many will say.."but that in house power train makes Ford more than an outsourced engine/trans."  Might be, but I say what about the lower cost on the rest of the truck  because you now are getting more plant utilization as well as giving your other component suppliers better volumes that help Ford push for better pricing?

 

So again, as I see it the current option list if anything has been a self fulfilling prophecy in terms of contributing to Ford's  decline in class 6 and 7.  In the meantime, Paccar, F'liner and International benefit and have moved into what were Ford's key markets in the KTP era.  And those competitor  trucks are usually not "plain janes" as today many operators have come to the realization if you want a good  driver vs. a "steering wheel holder" you have to put  his butt in a nice seat!

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6 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

JP- No  doubt F-600 will be a home run.  The 22,000 GVW in a less "intimidating" size will  satisfy a large percentage of current 650 customers-in particular U-Haul! 

 

As for the current Ford numbers, I can only make my usual case-...those  numbers are largely due to  the limited power train choice-and other dumb moves such as not offering air  brakes on a 33,000lb vehicle unless it is a Power Stroke.  What was the motivation there?  -some genius said.."hey-that will be an incentive if they really want a Ford to opt for the 12,000 buck PS premium."   And of course, many will say.."but that in house power train makes Ford more than an outsourced engine/trans."  Might be, but I say what about the lower cost on the rest of the truck  because you now are getting more plant utilization as well as giving your other component suppliers better volumes that help Ford push for better pricing?

 

So again, as I see it the current option list if anything has been a self fulfilling prophecy in terms of contributing to Ford's  decline in class 6 and 7.  In the meantime, Paccar, F'liner and International benefit and have moved into what were Ford's key markets in the KTP era.  And those competitor  trucks are usually not "plain janes" as today many operators have come to the realization if you want a good  driver vs. a "steering wheel holder" you have to put  his butt in a nice seat!

I believe that the only reason that Ford is still selling F650/F750 at all is because someone with influence

convinced the heads that bring them in-house  would make them profitable. I don't see Ford interested

beyond low cost upgrades that add easy sales.

 

I can share that in class 4 and 5, Ford sales have now recovered to pre-pandemic sales, 

so if there's any perceived inroads from competitors like the three you mentioned, it's not

being reflected in current sales - none of the brands you mentioned have shown any recovery

in class 4 or 5 sales  (not their strong suit anyway).

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40 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

I believe that the only reason that Ford is still selling F650/F750 at all is because someone with influence

convinced the heads that bring them in-house  would make them profitable. I don't see Ford interested

beyond low cost upgrades that add easy sales.

 

I can share that in class 4 and 5, Ford sales have now recovered to pre-pandemic sales, 

so if there's any perceived inroads from competitors like the three you mentioned, it's not

being reflected in current sales - none of the brands you mentioned have shown any recovery

in class 4 or 5 sales  (not their strong suit anyway).

I was not considering class 4 and 5 as far as Paccar, F'liner and International are concerned-just  the class 6 and 7 sales they are taking-and NOT with low ATP trucks.    And of course, thanks to the GM JV, International is  now a player in 4 and 5.  And my opinion on that is they will be the big winner, not GM, who chose to give that class 4/5 volume to Chevy dealers vs...the "Truck People at General Motors..GMC".  International will now be the only class 4-8 house.  Will that give them an edge?  I'm sure that is another debate.

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22 minutes ago, Bob Rosadini said:

I was not considering class 4 and 5 as far as Paccar, F'liner and International are concerned-just  the class 6 and 7 sales they are taking-and NOT with low ATP trucks.    And of course, thanks to the GM JV, International is  now a player in 4 and 5.  And my opinion on that is they will be the big winner, not GM, who chose to give that class 4/5 volume to Chevy dealers vs...the "Truck People at General Motors..GMC".  International will now be the only class 4-8 house.  Will that give them an edge?  I'm sure that is another debate.

At the moment, International's class 6 & 7 sales are currently  half of what they were in August last year,

almost everyone in those classes have seen sales tank, Freightliner is about two thirds but whatever,

none of the main players in those classes are seeing positive growth.

 

Ford's class 6 sales in August recovered to their pre-pandemic levels. If the other brands you mentioned

are gaining high value sales in class 6 or 7, that doesn't seemnto be affecting Ford.....

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9 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

JP- No  doubt F-600 will be a home run.  The 22,000 GVW in a less "intimidating" size will  satisfy a large percentage of current 650 customers-in particular U-Haul! 

 

As for the current Ford numbers, I can only make my usual case-...those  numbers are largely due to  the limited power train choice-and other dumb moves such as not offering air  brakes on a 33,000lb vehicle unless it is a Power Stroke.  What was the motivation there?  -some genius said.."hey-that will be an incentive if they really want a Ford to opt for the 12,000 buck PS premium."   And of course, many will say.."but that in house power train makes Ford more than an outsourced engine/trans."  Might be, but I say what about the lower cost on the rest of the truck  because you now are getting more plant utilization as well as giving your other component suppliers better volumes that help Ford push for better pricing?

 

So again, as I see it the current option list if anything has been a self fulfilling prophecy in terms of contributing to Ford's  decline in class 6 and 7.  In the meantime, Paccar, F'liner and International benefit and have moved into what were Ford's key markets in the KTP era.  And those competitor  trucks are usually not "plain janes" as today many operators have come to the realization if you want a good  driver vs. a "steering wheel holder" you have to put  his butt in a nice seat!

 

I would be curious to see how many of Ford's 650/750 sales are gas motors vs diesel.  That is one advantage Ford has vs the others as, just like with glider kits, there is a good chunk of the population who will do anything to avoid the cost & issues with diesel aftertreatment systems.

 

In addition to that, Ford needs a new cab BAD.  It's no coincidence that Freightliner and International dominate Class 6-7 and they both offer significantly better cabs than what Ford and PACCAR offer.  In addition, there are so many options/advanced features on some of these trucks that Ford just doesn't offer.  Ford just can't come anywhere near the others on the number of buildable combinations and specific options/layouts the others offer, which makes body builders prefer the FTL/INTL trucks in a big way.

 

Ford's advantage is up-front cost and a gas motor option.  That's it...there is really nothing else that Ford offers that is better than the competition.

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So, has anyone heard how the 6.7 Power Stroke diesel is doing or perhaps have any first hand experience?  I'm curious to see how the first 10 model years has gone by.  I've heard some of the pre MY 2015 trucks had turbo issues at the 150,000 mile mark but other than that I've heard nothing but good.

 

Same for the new 7.3 gas.  I've heard there are some having plug wire issues but it sounds like a sub par quality product from the supplier.  Any word?

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