New Light & Medium Duty News

[7Mary3]

I agree with that.  The Navistar/GM joint venture class 4-5-6 trucks are interesting as they 'sit on the fence' between class 5 and 6.  Judging by the frames, suspension, and axles they are more of a downrated class 6, but small enough in physical size to be viable in class 4 and 5 unlike GM's last medium duty trucks.  Interestingly, Navistar is dropping their large class 8 aluminum cab from the HX series, now all International trucks except for the GM joint venture trucks will use the steel MV/HV cab.

[jpd80]

6 hours ago, iamweasel said:

 

Class 5 and 6 almost have nothing in common, component-wise.  Your biggest class 6 sellers (Freightliner M2 & International DuraStar/MV) do not sell many of those models as class 5 trucks - a vast majority of those model sales are class 6 & 7.   The models/specs available for class 5 are a lot different than what you get in class 6 with most OEM's.

 

On the other hand, class 6 & 7 are darn near the same trucks (at nearly the same price)  with different axle weights.  I think that's why most people classify class 6 & 7 as medium duty and I'd agree with that.  Class 8 is a completely different world than Class 7 in my opinion.  (Different cabs/hoods, tandem axles, bigger engines/transmissions, Federal Excise Tax, etc.)

True, Ford is reaching up to class 6 & 7 by anchoring itself to engines, transmissions axles and brakes 

that have more to do with lower classes. The competition is basically the opposite, reaching down 

to class 6 from 7 & 8 which is their real strength. Ford has found itself a place in class 6 that doesn't

cost much to do, especially big gasoline engine which never taxes maximum GVM of the frame.

 

The F750 is out of its depth with the equipment expectations of most class 7 buyers, the reasons 

have been discussed many times before but simply, unless Ford offers what class7 buyers want,

F750 will remain less than 200 sales a month. A massive gasoline engine based on Godzilla as a

true diesel alternative might be a novel solution or it could be a disastrous misread of those buyers..

Carving out a niche of buyers gets harder when you're up against the best competition in the market,

better bring your A game and industry recognised equipment if you want to play with the big boys....

 

 

Edited December 27, 2020 by jpd80

[7Mary3]

Don't think you will see a 'Godzilla' of over 7.3L, it's really more of a 'small block' engine.  Only options for increased displacement would be a slight stroke increase or add cylinders (and that will not happen).  In any event, 7.3L is plenty big for what Ford wants to do with it. 

[iamweasel]

52 minutes ago, 7Mary3 said:

Don't think you will see a 'Godzilla' of over 7.3L, it's really more of a 'small block' engine.  Only options for increased displacement would be a slight stroke increase or add cylinders (and that will not happen).  In any event, 7.3L is plenty big for what Ford wants to do with it. 

 

 

Agreed.....the cab (small inside) and the transmission (no Allison) are far bigger issues impacting Ford class-6 sales in my opinion.  The engines are fine.  

[Bob Rosadini]

What is interesting is you go back to the KTP era, and Ford covered class 7 and even 8 with two cabs, the F series "pick up"cab and the Louisville "big truck" cab.  You could get virtually the same power trains in your choice of cabs.  In class 7 there were many dealers in this area who would stock 33,000 lb gvw chassis in both series and with the same CA to respectively  accommodate a 6-8 yd dump or a 2800gal fuel oil tank.   The Louisville was usually in the majority.

[Bob Rosadini]

14 hours ago, iamweasel said:

 

 

Agreed.....the cab (small inside) and the transmission (no Allison) are far bigger issues impacting Ford class-6 sales in my opinion.  The engines are fine.  

I would agree 100% on the transmission issue but feel the engine issue is a bigger disincentive vs. the cab.  Does the cab on a 550 get a lot of bad press?  I don't think so.  Biggest knock I would see on the current cab is the inability to accommodate a higher seating position.

 

But no doubt, compare it to the competition, and it IS a compromise.

[iamweasel]

7 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

I would agree 100% on the transmission issue but feel the engine issue is a bigger disincentive vs. the cab.  Does the cab on a 550 get a lot of bad press?  I don't think so.  Biggest knock I would see on the current cab is the inability to accommodate a higher seating position.

 

But no doubt, compare it to the competition, and it IS a compromise.

 

What exactly is the engine issue Ford has with the F650/750?  I don't understand why that's a problem.  In fact, I'd say they have a big advantage with their engine lineup given they offer a gas option which is unique in class 6.  

 

The F650/750 cab is cheap, offers little headroom/depth, has poor visibility and a worst-in-class turning radius.  Aside from that the cab is great. 

[jpd80]

23 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

Don't think you will see a 'Godzilla' of over 7.3L, it's really more of a 'small block' engine.  Only options for increased displacement would be a slight stroke increase or add cylinders (and that will not happen).  In any event, 7.3L is plenty big for what Ford wants to do with it. 

Sales drop off in F750 (under 200) compared to F650 (~1,000) and F600 (~1,100)

whatever the reason, Ford's F750 just doesn't attract sales in any meaningful volume.

 

I merely suggest a V10 or even better, a V12 Godzilla gasoline engine as a point of differentiation

to what other brands offer,  a massive gasoline engine that rivals competition diesels without the cost

but the realist in me knows that this isn't on the table unfortunately......

 

Class 6 and 7 for Ford was all about picking up easy sales that weren't being covered by other brands,

all using variations of engines and transmissions used in class 2b to 5. Getting Ford interested in going 

after even more Class 6 and 7 sales is hard since it either costs more investment or requires offering 

Things like air brakes, spicer axles, Allison Transmissions and bigger Cummins diesels - these are required

equipment in these classes to be considered for substantial commercial fleet orders.

 

 

 

[Bob Rosadini]

Okay guys want to see a Ford set up for big snow?  That tandem rear axle is a 64,000lb Meritor I think.....

.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27ayE_mZRHk

[lfeg]

Read something this evening. Seems that Navistar is working with GM on using GM fuel cells in class7 & 8 trucks.

[7Mary3]

1 hour ago, lfeg said:

Read something this evening. Seems that Navistar is working with GM on using GM fuel cells in class7 & 8 trucks.

 

Yes, I posted an article pertaining to that in the Competition Forum.  It will be interesting seeing how far they get with that.  And speaking of other forums on this site, check out the Avon Lake thread in the Employee's Forum.  I have been hearing rumors that Avon Lake will eventually be a BEV plant, but who knows?

Edited January 28, 2021 by 7Mary3

[Bob Rosadini]

Ok here is a very nice toy hauler-not here though.

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2PBaC4F5g0

[Joe771476]

That was awesome!

[7Mary3]

In other news, Isuzu is going to source higher powered diesel engines from Cummins for some of their larger U.S. trucks.  I would expect Chevy dealers will get these as well.

[iamweasel]

On 1/28/2021 at 3:53 PM, 7Mary3 said:

In other news, Isuzu is going to source higher powered diesel engines from Cummins for some of their larger U.S. trucks.  I would expect Chevy dealers will get these as well.

 

Good luck with that....Cummins has slowly been going downhill over the years. 

 

Even worse, their corporate philosophy regarding customer support has changed, too.  Parts availability for repairs is becoming more of a problem and Cummins is now more interested in temporary band-aid repairs instead of "doing the right thing" and trying to fix it right the first time.  

 

Ford did the right thing by kicking them to the curb.  Not having the Allison is a bigger problem than not having Cummins.  

[7Mary3]

A lot of Cummins' problems are caused by dealers.  Some truck makes have proprietary engines that their dealerships push over Cummins, and I suspect the service departments may be co-conspirators!  In my personal experiences I would say that Cummins is as bad as they have ever been but no worse, diesels of all makes have suffered greatly since the adoption of DPF's and SCR's.  I will go so far as to say that in my opinion Detroit and Isuzu are the most reliable at present.

 

Agree that Ford's biggest problem is not offering Allison transmissions.  My employer has not purchased an F-650 or 750 since the 'Blue Diamond' days because the 6R140 (an otherwise great transmission) can't handle our P.T.O. driven equipment.       

[iamweasel]

11 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

A lot of Cummins' problems are caused by dealers.  Some truck makes have proprietary engines that their dealerships push over Cummins, and I suspect the service departments may be co-conspirators!  In my personal experiences I would say that Cummins is as bad as they have ever been but no worse, diesels of all makes have suffered greatly since the adoption of DPF's and SCR's.  I will go so far as to say that in my opinion Detroit and Isuzu are the most reliable at present.

 

Agree that Ford's biggest problem is not offering Allison transmissions.  My employer has not purchased an F-650 or 750 since the 'Blue Diamond' days because the 6R140 (an otherwise great transmission) can't handle our P.T.O. driven equipment.       

 

I can tell you with 100% certainty that Detroit "does the right thing" when it comes to repair guidance/warranty claims more so than Cummins, and Detroit also engineers a better engine than Cummins.  (In addition most major parts cost about 10-20% cheaper than Cummins, too.)  There is no doubt about it and the proof is in the numbers. 

 

Freightliner is the only OEM who offers both Detroit and Cummins options in basically every model, and on the Class 8 sales 95% of Freightliner's customers choose Detroit.   On the Class 6-7 side Cummins and Detroit is a little close to even, but that is due to the fact that the midrange DD5/DD8 engines have only been in the US for a few years and many customers (especially State & Govt customers) want Cummins so all their trucks (Freightliner, International, Paccar, etc) have the same engines.

 

That being said, you are correct that most dealers will push their proprietary engines for the most part, and that is because none of us want to deal with Cummins after the fact.  (Whether it be parts pricing/availability, warranty guidance, hotline wait times/expertise, etc.)   The other reason is Cummins acts as a competitor to most dealers with their corporate-owned distributor locations.  We will do bids on engines for various school bus garages and even though we are bidding Cummins engines per the spec, the Cummins distributors big against us.  It makes no sense....they would be selling the engines, anyway.  They go around to customers who buy trucks with Cummins engines in them and try to get those customers to buy parts and do service work at their location.  So yeah, if you want to know why dealers try to push their own proprietary engines, aside from the fact that in some cases the proprietary engine is better (Detroit), there is also a better working relationship there, too.  If Cummins focused on being a wholesaler on the aftermarket side, like they are on the Truck Sales side, they would get a lot more support from the dealer network.  That's why so many OEM's have launched their own proprietary engines over the years.  (International Maxxforce, A26, Detroit DD5/DD8, MX11/MX13, etc.)  Both the OEM's and Dealers are sick of dealing with Cummins.

 

So I'm glad Ford told those Cummins folks to shove it.  Good for them. 

 

 

[7Mary3]

I agree, the DD5 and DD8 are great engines and will be popular.  5L is a good size for most class 6 trucks.  One thing about Cummins that really annoys me is that they paint the whole assembled engine with crappy red paint.  And I mean everything, ECM, wiring harness, filters, everything.  The paint makes it nearly impossible to unplug harness connectors.  Someone must have complained, last Cummins engine we got have the connectors wrapped in cheap gooey packing tape before painting.    

[iamweasel]

18 minutes ago, 7Mary3 said:

I agree, the DD5 and DD8 are great engines and will be popular.  5L is a good size for most class 6 trucks.  One thing about Cummins that really annoys me is that they paint the whole assembled engine with crappy red paint.  And I mean everything, ECM, wiring harness, filters, everything.  The paint makes it nearly impossible to unplug harness connectors.  Someone must have complained, last Cummins engine we got have the connectors wrapped in cheap gooey packing tape before painting. 

 

LOL....next time I'm at the Cummins plant I'll let them know.    

 

[7Mary3]

I hear Avon Lake is laying off for the next couple of months and cutting back 650/750 production due to low demand.  Planning on resuming full production in March.  

[iamweasel]

37 minutes ago, 7Mary3 said:

I hear Avon Lake is laying off for the next couple of months and cutting back 650/750 production due to low demand.  Planning on resuming full production in March.  

 

Very strange, because order intake for the other OEM's is sky high right now.  Want a Freightliner M2 - a new order today won't be scheduled for build until September.  

[7Mary3]

https://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-biz-ford-layoffs-chicago-20210130-c5aeff5swbhhdaqmsw762ekreq-story.html

 

"Matching production to customer demand".

[Bob Rosadini]

13 minutes ago, 7Mary3 said:

https://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-biz-ford-layoffs-chicago-20210130-c5aeff5swbhhdaqmsw762ekreq-story.html

 

"Matching production to customer demand".

Wonder how the GM/International JV twins are doing?

[iamweasel]

16 minutes ago, 7Mary3 said:

https://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-biz-ford-layoffs-chicago-20210130-c5aeff5swbhhdaqmsw762ekreq-story.html

 

"Matching production to customer demand".

 

That's puzzling....I don't recall Ford losing much market share towards the end of last year.  I wonder why they hit the skids all of a sudden.

 

Attached is a pic from an Internal Freightliner Dealer website showing their lead times.  Under normal conditions, you can get a Freightliner in 2-3 months, but now they are 7-11 months out on M2's and Cascadias, respectively.  Pretty sure International, PACCAR and Mack/Volvo also have far longer than normal lead times.  Then you have Hino who is shut down right now....so how the heck can Ford be faced with lower demand all of a sudden??????  Everyone else has way more demand than production capacity right now.

[7Mary3]

3 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

Wonder how the GM/International JV twins are doing?

 

Sales up about 50% over same period last year, but 4000 available as of the beginning of January.  No word of slowing production:

 

https://gmauthority.com/blog/2021/01/about-4000-2019-and-2020-silverado-md-units-remain-unsold/