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On 4/21/2021 at 8:05 PM, 7Mary3 said:

 

Honestly I think Otosan's heavy truck operation is in a similar situation compared to Iveco.  They basically don't exist outside of Europe though they do have a presence in China.  I don't see Otosan spinning off their truck operation, but I could see them aligning with a strategic partner.   

Last I read, they were in 35 countries.

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23 hours ago, Joe771476 said:

Remember when 90 % of the time, the brand of tractor hauling a car brand was the same? Ford tractor hauling Ford cars etc.

 

(122) GMC FORD WHITE MACK DAF MAN LEYLAND.$$Cania.CHeVROLET.DODGE.. - YouTube

There was a lot of "customization" in the old days.  How about that Dodge that looks like  the cab is  elevated about the chassis!

Talk about a business that has changed.  In the old days there were a few dedicated carriers that served the big three.  With deregulation and the expanded use of rail it is a splintered business now  as I see it.

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Wondering if Ford is missing yet another opportunity for the 650 and 750.  My employer has decided not buy any more diesel powered vehicles.  From now on cars and light trucks will be gasoline, CNG, or BEV.  Medium and heavy trucks will be CNG or fuel cell.  With regards to CNG, there is now RNG, or renewable natural gas, which depending on the percentage can get close to 'carbon neutral'.  That's a big deal for fleets 'going green' in the interim before BEV's and fuel cell vehicles become widely available.  At the moment, PACCAR and Freightliner are happy to sell you a CNG (or RNG) medium duty powered by the Cummins L9N.  They are not exactly cheap, and they are at the larger class 7 end of the medium duty market.  But, now there is a slightly smaller and less expensive alternative in the QVM certified Landi-Renzo converted Ford F-650 and 750.  They are EPA and CARB certified and might prove to be a good low cost 'green' diesel alternative, and one would think Ford would be pushing these things at every opportunity.  Of course it would seem that Ford is oblivious to these vehicles, instead focusing (like a laser) of a host of technologically innovative telemetric features that provide a suite of fleet management solutions to problems that may or may not exist in a results-driven inclusive green environment for F-150's and Transits (nothing larger because those vehicles really don't exist) all the while delivering enhanced shareholder value.  Or something like that......

 

   https://landiusa.com/products/             

Edited by 7Mary3
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2 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

Wondering if Ford is missing yet another opportunity for the 650 and 750.  My employer has decided not buy any more diesel powered vehicles.  From now on cars and light trucks will be gasoline, CNG, or BEV.  Medium and heavy trucks will be CNG or fuel cell.  With regards to CNG, there is now RNG, or renewable natural gas, which depending on the percentage can get close to 'carbon neutral'.  That's a big deal for fleets 'going green' in the interim before BEV's and fuel cell vehicles become widely available.  At the moment, PACCAR and Freightliner are happy to sell you a CNG (or RNG) medium duty powered by the Cummins L9N.  They are now exactly cheap, and they are at the larger class 7 end of the medium duty market.  But, now there is a slightly smaller and less expensive alternative in the QVM certified Landi-Renzo converted Ford F-650 and 750.  They are EPA and CARB certified and might prove to be a good low cost 'green' diesel alternative, and one would think Ford would be pushing these things at every opportunity.  Of course it would seem that Ford is oblivious to these vehicles, instead focusing (like a laser) of a host of technologically innovative telemetric features that provide a suite of fleet management solutions to problems that may or may not exist in a results-driven inclusive green environment for F-150's and Transits (nothing larger because those vehicles really don't exist) all the while delivering enhanced shareholder value.  Or something like that......

 

   https://landiusa.com/products/             

Oblivious for sure!

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Ford is quite aware of the LNG/CNG/RNG market, that's partly why they developed the new 7.3 V8 and have "gaseous fuel prep" packages for so many vehicles. Daimler and some of the other medium and heavy truck makers can supply these alternative fuel trucks direct from the factory, Ford doesn't do that but that may be because most dealers couldn't handle gaseous fueled trucks?

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2 hours ago, GearheadGrrrl said:

Ford is quite aware of the LNG/CNG/RNG market, that's partly why they developed the new 7.3 V8 and have "gaseous fuel prep" packages for so many vehicles. Daimler and some of the other medium and heavy truck makers can supply these alternative fuel trucks direct from the factory, Ford doesn't do that but that may be because most dealers couldn't handle gaseous fueled trucks?

Well no doubt that the "gaseous" market was a reason for the 7.3's development-but typical half assed Ford move.  Spend millions to save a relic of a train station but they can't quite follow through on what should be a developing market.  

If I'm a fleet manager do I want a one stop solution to my service issues or do I want the headache of dealing with Ford, Roush, Landi etc.   Like the old...."no that is not a _______ fill in the blank, Ford? International? F'liner etc-problem its an Allison? Cat? Cummins etc problem"

Years ago propane trucks were a KTP source.  

 

So much for that.  
 

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After retiring, I worked for one if the QVMs doing CNG conversion.  Ford may be "aware" but they are doing the absolute MINIMUM to help this market (typically, hardened valve seats and sodium filled exhaust valves).

 

Working on anything Medium Duty related inside the company is almost like a career ending death sentence (like the term "minivan" has been forever banned inside the company).

 

It is all "chicken and egg".  Ford is waiting for huge demand but they are going to miss all of growth.  The biggest problem in CNG is still cost effective fuel tanks.

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Going CNG/RNG is getting more popular. A friend was a head mechanic for an outfit with 70+ Class 7 & 8 trucks, and when they made the changeover to CNG about 4 years ago thet built A new maintenance garage. To meet NFPA and state codes it cost about 30% more, but they said that with lower fuel cost, and lower maintenance cost it was worth it. The only problem was that some drivers ocassionally forget to complete the fueling hookup when they get back to the barn. They also invested in a one ton equipped with a  high pressure CNG tank to take care of any out of fuel while on a route issues.

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On 4/30/2021 at 5:49 AM, theoldwizard1 said:

After retiring, I worked for one if the QVMs doing CNG conversion.  Ford may be "aware" but they are doing the absolute MINIMUM to help this market (typically, hardened valve seats and sodium filled exhaust valves).

 

Working on anything Medium Duty related inside the company is almost like a career ending death sentence (like the term "minivan" has been forever banned inside the company).

 

It is all "chicken and egg".  Ford is waiting for huge demand but they are going to miss all of growth.  The biggest problem in CNG is still cost effective fuel tanks.

The benefits of taking Medium Duty internal was heavily oversold, a lot of blue sky was spun about easy profits.

That’s the reason why Ford hasn’t really spent all that much on F650/F750 especially equipment that would add

real credibility to the trucks.  Originally, the decision was mostly to resurrect the retired 6.8 V10 as the cash cow.

 

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17 hours ago, jpd80 said:

The benefits of taking Medium Duty internal was heavily oversold, a lot of blue sky was spun about easy profits.

That’s the reason why Ford hasn’t really spent all that much on F650/F750 especially equipment that would add

real credibility to the trucks.  Originally, the decision was mostly to resurrect the retired 6.8 V10 as the cash cow.

 

JP- Interesting.....they make a decision to stay in a market because it will benefit 6.8 production.  Then they come out with a better replacement-the 7.3.  And it should be a big seller given its cost advantage over the Power Stroke-as well as probably a far less costly engine to produce give its simplicity vs. the OHC 6.8.

And as we have kicked around, it was also designed for service in CNG/LNG/Propane applications.

 

But have they made it an easy option for buyers,  dealers  who want a gaseous option?  ...No way-other than some internal mods the actual outfitting is left to outsiders.  And stopping this  new V-8?  Well in 2023, you will be able to get one with air brakes-or as the Ford marketers like to emphasize...."it will have air for such things as seats, horns etc."  Like "brakes" are a secondary reason.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

JP- Interesting.....they make a decision to stay in a market because it will benefit 6.8 production.  Then they come out with a better replacement-the 7.3.  And it should be a big seller given its cost advantage over the Power Stroke-as well as probably a far less costly engine to produce give its simplicity vs. the OHC 6.8.

And as we have kicked around, it was also designed for service in CNG/LNG/Propane applications.

 

But have they made it an easy option for buyers,  dealers  who want a gaseous option?  ...No way-other than some internal mods the actual outfitting is left to outsiders.  And stopping this  new V-8?  Well in 2023, you will be able to get one with air brakes-or as the Ford marketers like to emphasize...."it will have air for such things as seats, horns etc."  Like "brakes" are a secondary reason.

And that’s why I’m not seeing any commitment beyond those easy gasoline sales.....

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Disappointing to say the the least.

 A lot of major business points that an average person doesn't see,  know of, or can  even imagine  - for sure -.

But, a truck manufacturer that isn't being more active in the medium and smaller class 8 markets in

N.A. ( that it once was), difficult to understand.

......... Meanwhile........ Foreign manufacturers more and more visible.

Edited by 40 Mile
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2 hours ago, 40 Mile said:

Disappointing to say the the least.

 A lot of major business points that an average person doesn't see,  know of, or can  even imagine  - for sure -.

But, a truck manufacturer that isn't being more active in the medium and smaller class 8 markets in

N.A. ( that it once was), difficult to understand.

......... Meanwhile........ Foreign manufacturers more and more visible.

It’s not hard to understand at all.

For Ford to really break into class 7 & 8, it would need to offer “industry standard” power trains, equipment and features that match buyer expectations and those already supplied buy manufacturers leading sales in those segments. Let’s say Ford does that and produces class 7 & 8 trucks with all the right stuff but with a low profit margin, are fleets really going to pass up established brands to buy these new Fords?

I doubt that very much and so does Ford.....

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It all goes back to Ford's over reaction to the not real profitable Class 8 market in the 80s when most of the profit in a new truck went to the engine and powertrain suppliers. Fearful of the cost of the upcoming emissions standards, Ford (mis)management decided they could make more money sending big SUVs instead of big trucks down the Louisville assembly line and pretty much gave the big truck business including the new HN80 conventional to Daimler. A quarter century later Class 8 is owned by only four makers who have used their market power to raise prices to profitable levels and pretty much pushed outside engine suppliers out of the market.  If Ford had smarter management they'd be #1 or #2 of the four surviving truck makers.

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22 minutes ago, GearheadGrrrl said:

It all goes back to Ford's over reaction to the not real profitable Class 8 market in the 80s when most of the profit in a new truck went to the engine and powertrain suppliers. Fearful of the cost of the upcoming emissions standards, Ford (mis)management decided they could make more money sending big SUVs instead of big trucks down the Louisville assembly line and pretty much gave the big truck business including the new HN80 conventional to Daimler. A quarter century later Class 8 is owned by only four makers who have used their market power to raise prices to profitable levels and pretty much pushed outside engine suppliers out of the market.  If Ford had smarter management they'd be #1 or #2 of the four surviving truck makers.

 

Only way Ford would have made it to #1 is if they bought Detroit Diesel before Daimler did.  That was the golden ticket...best engines back then and still the best engines today, and the prime reason Freightliner outsells every other truck brand by a 3-to-1 margin.

 

Even if Ford built the best trucks on the planet today, they still would struggle to sell them because they don't have a dealer network that can handle it.  They would need some major investment on the dealer side to build service bays and parts inventories to handle it.  (Not to mention a culture change....handling commercial truck customers is a lot different than your Mustang, Explorer or even your typical Super Duty customer.)

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39 minutes ago, iamweasel said:

 

Only way Ford would have made it to #1 is if they bought Detroit Diesel before Daimler did.  That was the golden ticket...best engines back then and still the best engines today, and the prime reason Freightliner outsells every other truck brand by a 3-to-1 margin.

 

Even if Ford built the best trucks on the planet today, they still would struggle to sell them because they don't have a dealer network that can handle it.  They would need some major investment on the dealer side to build service bays and parts inventories to handle it.  (Not to mention a culture change....handling commercial truck customers is a lot different than your Mustang, Explorer or even your typical Super Duty customer.)

And even if Ford did all of that, it’s products would look like a “me too” of all the other equipment already being supplied elsewhere. Marketing 101, why would buyers choose your product over the ones they already get from other manufacturers, I think that the business case just doesn’t stack up - at least the way Ford is looking at it.

 

IMO, Ford’s biggest strength is low cost gasoline engine and by extension, a dedicated CNG setup , so why not develop a 90 degree V12 of say 11 litres that could be a diesel alternative and give Ford a genuine point of differentiation, add some air brakes and let’s go for it. 

Edited by jpd80
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4 hours ago, iamweasel said:

 

Only way Ford would have made it to #1 is if they bought Detroit Diesel before Daimler did.  That was the golden ticket...best engines back then and still the best engines today, and the prime reason Freightliner outsells every other truck brand by a 3-to-1 margin.

 

Even if Ford built the best trucks on the planet today, they still would struggle to sell them because they don't have a dealer network that can handle it.  They would need some major investment on the dealer side to build service bays and parts inventories to handle it.  (Not to mention a culture change....handling commercial truck customers is a lot different than your Mustang, Explorer or even your typical Super Duty customer.)

 

The 60 Series was a gem, and Penske knew it.  Detroit probably stayed with the 2 strokes too long, but the 60 more than made up for that.

 

Anyone remember Overdrive magazine?  They had an particularly low opinion of Ford class 8 trucks, to the point that they refused to advertise them.  Of course Ford probably wasn't about to pay them anyway, so it was likely a case of mutual disgust.  One of Overdrive's major complaints was that service and parts support from Ford heavy truck dealers was notoriously bad throughout the country, and this was during Ford's truck heyday in the late 70's.     

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Overdrive was an "opinion leader" for owner operators, who were 20% of the market back then, and probably less than 10% now. As for service availability, some like Boyer Ford in the midwest did a great job and helped build the Ford heavy truck brand while some did nothing or next to nothing. Even if you didn't have a good dealership, All the 9000s and much of the smaller series came with industry standard components from Cat, Cummins, Detroit, etc. that could be fixed by just about any heavy truck repair shop.

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