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6 hours ago, twintornados said:

 

Oh, they are using a copy of F-Max alright...

Ford F-Max

 

 

JMC Weilong HV5
 

 

It's not a "copy". It's just lightly restyled to better fit the local market taste. Remember, JMC a Ford brand so Ford is the one making and selling the truck.

 

The change from F-Max to HV-5 is like the different face that Ford put on Escape in China vs. the one in the US.

 

https://www.jmc.com.cn/

Edited by bzcat
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8 hours ago, twintornados said:

 

Oh, they are using a copy of F-Max alright...

Ford F-Max

image.png.0bd8623e0ed22b4e486d67389af54087.png

 

JMC Weilong HV5
image.png.baeb9935e770769e6fe00d839dca5c11.png

Thx TT-never saw this one- I was on the same page as JP- I was referring to the high tilt before F-Max.  It was the old Ford but with more cladding to make it look more like the "Transformers" my sons used to play with?

I'll give  the Chinese credit for one thing-they put the horns where they  belong!

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11 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

So will this be the end for the F-Max in China?  One would think that Otosan would be interested in finding a Chinese partner outside of Ford.

7m, In my mind this would say a lot about Ford's involvement in just what Otosan does.  If Ford in their infinite wisdom says .."we are out  of here" what does it say if their partner-and allegedly world HQ for "heavy truck engineering"-says .."no we are going to take the trucks that you helped fund, and sell them under some other banner.

Of course this then poses the question...."what world engineering for  heavy trucks"?  Brazil is gone-is a 37,000 GVW 750 a heavy truck?

How about all you Ford guys..have  you ever heard of co-operation between Turkey and Dearborn?

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12 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

So will this be the end for the F-Max in China?  One would think that Otosan would be interested in finding a Chinese partner outside of Ford.

 

Otosan is Ford... the company's name is Ford Otosan, which is an abbreviation for Ford Otomotiv Sanayi, or Ford Automotive Company in Turkish. 

 

And Ford just exited the heavy truck business in China. So I'm guessing no, Ford Otosan is not going to find another Chinese partner.

 

If you are thinking Koc Holding doing something in China, I think we discussed this before... Ford's JV with Koc probably prohibits Koc from independently selling heavy trucks, which is why Otokar, its fully owned business only sells buses. 

Edited by bzcat
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On 5/20/2021 at 1:35 PM, 7Mary3 said:

If that's the case maybe Ford should let Koc Holding take the heavy truck business and combine it with Otokar.  Seems Ford just wants out of that part of the Otosan business anyway.

 

They may do that. Seems like that is where things are headed towards. 

 

But you are assuming Koc wants the business... they may not. 

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Ford Otosan just expanded offering their the F-Max and Cargo throughout Eastern Europe and select Western Europe markets like Spain.

 

 

 

JMC's Heavy Truck plant was actually from a takeover of another company that was going under. It isn't that old. That company was Taiyuan. 

 

This means they would continue selling their higher selling former Isuzu median duty trucks under JMC.

 

It never appeared their Heavy Truck sales really ever took off. The medium Duty line can sell 10k a month in a good non-COVID month. 

Edited by ausrutherford
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Ford Otosan has a manufacturing capacity of 15,000 heavy vehicles per annum at its Ekesehir plant in Turkey. It has doubled its market share in Turkey over the 12 year period since 2008. Ford Otosan produced 8358 trucks in 2011 for a 22.8 % share of the Turkish HCV market and in 2020 produced 7839 trucks for a 31.7% share of the heavy vehicle market in Turkey.

image.png.f3d7d5e4ba023eb83a818c364d793dea.png

% of Turkish Heavy Commercial Market Share February 2021.

 

 

2008

2009

 

2010

2011

2012

2013

2014

2015

2016

2017

2018

2019

2020

Ford Otosan HCV sales Turkey

2978

2061

4668

8358

6001

5998

6772

7842

5193

5187

3415

2370

5309

Ford Otosan International HCV Sales

 

 

 

 

 

 

1006

1008

976

1500

2200

3003

2530

Total Ford Otosan HCV Sales

2978

2061

4668

8358

6001

5998

7778

8850

6169

6687

5615

5373

7839

% HCV Market Share Turkey

14.7

17.3

18.3

22.8

20.0

21.3

21.8

23.3

28.1

27.7

28.5

31.4

31.7

 

Ford Trucks stated goal is to have a minimum of 5% market share in 80 countries worldwide by 2023, including much of Western Europe

The company is developing its own automated transmission and will develop a 2.3m wide version of the F-Max cab to replace the cab on the Cargo model before contemplating production of a right hand drive version.

 

Jiangling Motors Corporation Heavy Duty Vehicles (JMCH)

Ford Motor Company is a major shareholder in the company however it may not have a controlling interest in the company.

JMCH, although not within the top ten heavy vehicle manufacturers in China is a significant vehicle manufacturer and have invested in the localisation of the Ford trucks

JMC produce a Horizon hydrogen fuel cell 4x2 version of the JMC Weilong primemover (Cargo) as well as JMC HV5 (FMax) in tandem drive, Diesel, WeiChai NG (LNG/CNG) powered, Horizon Hydrogen Fuel Cell powered versions.

 

JMCH annual production in 2019 was 96,919 commercial vehicles. The number of heavy duty trucks produced does not appear to be available on subscription free sources however JMCH shows part of an order of 100 JMC Weilong HV5 (FMax) primemovers being delivered to the Fast Growing Logistics Company at a presentation in April 2020.

 

JMCH commercial vehicles produced include JMC light trucks with 1.5 tonne to 4.7 tonne capacity powered by Ford Duratorq 2.4 litre, Isuzu 2.8 and 3.0 litre Euro 5 diesel engines and 5 or 6 speed Getrag manual transmissions.  The JMC Super Carrying light duty cab forward truck utilises a Cummins 3.8 litre diesel engine with a 6 or 7 speed manual transmission.

 

Light duty battery electric versions of these trucks are produced with 81 and 107 kWhr batteries for 1.2 to 2.3 tonne payload capacities.

 

Ford announced that the company's automotive business in China will focus on the four core areas of Ford-branded passenger cars, commercial vehicles, Lincoln-branded and electric vehicles on 28 April 2021. It established Ford China passenger vehicle division and Ford China commercial vehicle division including indicating that there would be a transformation of the commercial operational model.

 

On the 7th of May 2021 Jiangling Automobile Company approved the sale of 100% of JMCH for not less than $118.7M USD.  

 

JMCH have already spun off the heavy commercial engine production into Taiyuan Jiangling Power Company Limited of which it sold a 60% share to the Yunnei Group in January 2021.

 

Heavy commercial vehicle sales are at a record high in China, in 2020 1.6 million vehicles were sold.

Restrictions on foreign owned commercial vehicle companies have been lifted. Hyundai, Scania are building plants. Daimler is in a joint venture with a local company to produce Mercedes-Benz trucks for the China market.

 

China Commercial Vehicle Network have speculated on the internet that Volvo Group may be a purchaser of JMCH assets as Volvo Group trucks are an import only operation in China.

If this were to be the case the Otosan licensing agreements would not be required.

Volvo Group have a 45% holding in Dongfeng Commercial Vehicles which produces Nissan UD derived trucks for the local market, Volvo having sold its 50% share in the Sinotruck joint venture in 2009.

 

image.png.da558e95e5ade52abbc86790081035f6.png

 

From Big Mack Trucks, 30th of May 2016

Ford Otosan, Ford Motor Company and Ford Global Technologies LLC (Licensors) signed a technology licensing agreement on July 25, 2014, with Jiangling Motors Corporation (JMC) in which Ford Motor Company holds a 32 percent stake.

The agreement granted JMC a non-exclusive license relating to Ford Cargo product technology, know-how and technical documentation relating to the design, manufacture and service of the Cargo chassis, cab and related components of Ford branded heavy trucks.

JMC agreed to pay Ford-Otosan an entry licensing fee of 8 million Euros, an average 390 Euro licensing fee per unit for each chassis produced, and 39 Euros for each cab produced.

The terms of the agreement are 12 years starting from mass production (November 2017) with automatic 3 year extensions unless declared otherwise.

 

FORD OTOMOTİV SANAYİ A.Ş.

Associated party transactions 2019 and projected for 2020

Engineering services sales to Jiangling Motors Corporation Ltd. (JMC) is based on “Engineering Services and Technical Assistance Contract for JMCH Stage 6 Ecotorq Project” dated 31 October 2018 and “Engineering Services and Technical Assistance Contract for JMC Branded JH476 Stage 6 Heavy Truck Project” dated 31 October 2018 and 11 November 2019.

In addition, license revenue is obtained from the engine that JMC produces and uses in JH476 Heavy Truck based on “Ecotorq Engine Technology Licensing Contract” dated 22 April 2013 and from the chassis that JMC produces based on “Technology Licensing Contract For JMC Branded JH476 Heavy Truck Program” dated 25 July 2014.

The company sells heavy commercial vehicle and engine production parts to the People's Republic of China with the “Agreement of Ecotorq Program Product Supply Agreement” and “JH476 Heavy Truck Program Product Supply Agreement" dated 30 March 2017 signed with Jiangling Motors Corporation Ltd (JMC).

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PRH- Wow thx for all that info.  Just curious do YOU have any feel for any direct involvement the FordOtosan group has with Dearborn and  US truck production.  I look at the F-Max coverage and I see pictures for example of instrument panel switchgear that looks exactly like what is in US Ford products.

Is there anything beyond that.  

 

I recognize "One Ford" was Mulally's thing but just curious if there is any joint participation in medium/ heavy truck design production.

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On another note I was talking to a guy the other day that has a landscaping construction business.  He has a 7.3 powered 650, 5-7 yd dump.  He said when he bought it the $10k premium for a Power Stroke was a turnoff.  He has no trouble with this 7.3 handling 10 ton loads of stone! And he says in terms of economy, costs him no more  than a 6.8 powered 550 he has.

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Bob,

I have no personal knowledge of North American engineering support to the Global Cargo at Ford Otosan as I am not involved in the heavy commercial vehicle sector or associated with the Ford Motor Company. As an interested observer though I think you could conclude that the Global Cargo program is KOC Holdings baby born of an association with Ford Trucks since they began assembling the (Ford) Thames Trader truck in 1961 and later in 1966 the Ford D series trucks under licence. (D1210 model)

1298232412_TurkishThamesTrader.JPG.070beea2e54eb709161faa55143f9a6c.JPG

 

1062396044_TurkishD1210.JPG.0e75f1dba1500afbcc3a7fa0adedb6b5.JPG

 

The late Nuri Otay recalled that Otosan worked hard to convince Ford Motor Company to become global players in heavy trucks once again following the sale of 52% of Ford Trucks Europe to Iveco in a joint venture in 1986 with Iveco subsequently taking full ownership in 1991.

"We even held discussions in June 2010 when Ford Motor Company’s Bill Ford came to Istanbul to celebrate Ford Otosan's 50th year. If you look closely you will even see that we took a photo in front of a Cargo truck. This was not for nothing."

 

The only North American involvement I can find with the Global Cargo program is that of John Sidelko who was Ford Otosan's truck program chief designer for the second generation H476 Ford Cargo which debuted in 2012. Also Mark Zolna who was the Global Heavy Commercial Vehicle Planning Manager between 2011 and 2014 and secured approval for the H62X (F-Max) program. 

 

Design of the mid cycle updates for the Ford Otosan H476MCA (Cargo), H566MCA (Cargo Tractor), and the new H62X (F-Max) was largely undertaken by Ford Otosan inhouse designers, engineers with access to Ford systems, software and component suppliers such as Lear Corporation from their Moroccan and Spanish facilities

 

JMCH JH476 (Cargo) & JH625 (F-Max) design and manufacture at the JMC Taiyuan plant was supported by Ford Otosan engineers and other design and engineering staff contracted to JMC with external support from French company SEGULA Technologies from their office in Turkey. Exterior design was by Spanish designers.

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1 hour ago, PRH60 said:

Bob,

I have no personal knowledge of North American engineering support to the Global Cargo at Ford Otosan as I am not involved in the heavy commercial vehicle sector or associated with the Ford Motor Company. As an interested observer though I think you could conclude that the Global Cargo program is KOC Holdings baby born of an association with Ford Trucks since they began assembling the (Ford) Thames Trader truck in 1961 and later in 1966 the Ford D series trucks under licence. (D1210 model)

 

 

1298232412_TurkishThamesTrader.JPG.070beea2e54eb709161faa55143f9a6c.JPG

 

1062396044_TurkishD1210.JPG.0e75f1dba1500afbcc3a7fa0adedb6b5.JPG

 

The late Nuri Otay recalled that Otosan worked hard to convince Ford Motor Company to become global players in heavy trucks once again following the sale of 52% of Ford Trucks Europe to Iveco in a joint venture in 1986 with Iveco subsequently taking full ownership in 1991.

"We even held discussions in June 2010 when Ford Motor Company’s Bill Ford came to Istanbul to celebrate Ford Otosan's 50th year. If you look closely you will even see that we took a photo in front of a Cargo truck. This was not for nothing."

 

The only North American involvement I can find with the Global Cargo program is that of John Sidelko who was Ford Otosan's truck program chief designer for the second generation H476 Ford Cargo which debuted in 2012. Also Mark Zolna who was the Global Heavy Commercial Vehicle Planning Manager between 2011 and 2014 and secured approval for the H62X (F-Max) program. 

 

Design of the mid cycle updates for the Ford Otosan H476MCA (Cargo), H566MCA (Cargo Tractor), and the new H62X (F-Max) was largely undertaken by Ford Otosan inhouse designers, engineers with access to Ford systems, software and component suppliers such as Lear Corporation from their Moroccan and Spanish facilities

 

JMCH JH476 (Cargo) & JH625 (F-Max) design and manufacture at the JMC Taiyuan plant was supported by Ford Otosan engineers and other design and engineering staff contracted to JMC with external support from French company SEGULA Technologies from their office in Turkey. Exterior design was by Spanish designers.

 

I think the support Dearborn would give it is the blessing to expand the Truck business at Ford Otosan. If Dearborn had said "No, you are to focus on only commercial vans and cutaways" we would not have the Cargo and F-Max today. Their ultimate approval came from Dearborn and Ford Otosan proved they could develop a world-class tractor.

 

I assume Ford Otosan is under direct management control of Ford Europe or is it under Ford Africa/ME/etc?

 

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I am still waiting for a reasonable answer to why the 6R140 is still being used in so many medium duty application !

 

I also don't understand the low power ratings of the 7.3L in the E-Series.

 

Last, I keep hoping Ford will pull it's head out of it butt and make some much needed charges to the T-Series.  I think a T450 would  sell if it had a better rear axle (duals outside the box like on F-Series and better brakes) !  Clearly it needs a chassis to carry a heavier load and tow more.  Also, where is the Titanium version of the T150 ?

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On 5/23/2021 at 4:13 PM, 40 Mile said:

New Louisville style cab?

Wishful thinking I know.

 

 

If there was any new Louisville/L-Series...it would not be ICE powered...

 

Ford Otosan clearly has a development goal to build an electric tractor in the future given the F-Vision concept shown about two years ago. Ford NA could use the technology and then use a NA specific frame and body for the rest. 

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25 minutes ago, ausrutherford said:

 

If there was any new Louisville/L-Series...it would not be ICE powered...

 

Ford Otosan clearly has a development goal to build an electric tractor in the future given the F-Vision concept shown about two years ago. Ford NA could use the technology and then use a NA specific frame and body for the rest. 

A smart company would make the architecture flexible enough to cover a big envelope of products that cover Europe, China and North America........especially when a BEV has no exhaust emissions to contend with.

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4 hours ago, ausrutherford said:

 

If there was any new Louisville/L-Series...it would not be ICE powered...

 

Ford Otosan clearly has a development goal to build an electric tractor in the future given the F-Vision concept shown about two years ago. Ford NA could use the technology and then use a NA specific frame and body for the rest. 

In my opinion some effort to produce  LNG/CNG/LPG versions of the ecotorq series would be valuable for certain markets.

Costly, I'm sure and not likely to happen.

At this time I'm not confident that electric will work everywhere for multiple reasons. Some uses/places, yes.

Even with the added complexity,  in my opinion,  different fuels or some type of hybrid would be useful.

I agree with those that think existing engines, will be around for quite some time yet.

Edited by 40 Mile
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16 hours ago, theoldwizard1 said:

I also don't understand the low power ratings of the 7.3L in the E-Series.

It pretty much has to be packaging issues, most likely related to heat evacuation. The EB35 is also down-rated in the Transits, giving up almost 100hp and 100ft-lbs to the F-150; it's not quite as bad as my T-Bird SC was, but the EB35 is dang near press-fit into the Transit's engine bay.

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My question: Is any non-Chinese company making any real money in China?  I doubt it!  I was up in Sturbridge MA and along I-395 and the four Ford dealerships I went by had NO F-series mediums on the lots. Going past the relatively small Charlton MA DOT garage on I-90 I saw a Ford Transit, several Class 2 thru 5 F-series Fords.  But when it came to the big boys, there were 2 or 3 Freightliner dumps class 7/8's.  Now as I and Bob R. know -- and contradictory to a gentleman in here -- those Freightliners would be Fords if Ford was still in class 8!  That's a fact Jack!  Want some proof?   Check out this 6-minute free F-series Ford commercial!  Be patient, there are some Ohio built trucks shown as well as well as a close-up of the blue Ford oval.  What more could Ford ask for??!!  The reason why they chose the Fords is because they share the same DNA and dealership people as vehicles already in service in their town, Ford!.

 

(163) The MCSO Corrections Transport Unit - YouTube
 

Edited by Joe771476
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