Jump to content

New Light & Medium Duty News


Recommended Posts

On 5/24/2021 at 6:11 AM, theoldwizard1 said:

I also don't understand the low power ratings of the 7.3L in the E-Series.

 

10 hours ago, SoonerLS said:

It pretty much has to be packaging issues, most likely related to heat evacuation. The EB35 is also down-rated in the Transits, giving up almost 100hp and 100ft-lbs to the F-150; it's not quite as bad as my T-Bird SC was, but the EB35 is dang near press-fit into the Transit's engine bay.

 

It is because the E-Series being a cutaway commercial chassis has a dyno certified engine (different EPA certification) hence the lower power number, just like the F-450 Chassis Cab, F-550, F-650, and F-750.  The E-Series also has an second even lower power rating for an "economy" tune.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Probably downrated to insure durability, while someone might put "pedal to the metal" on an F150 for a minute at most, with a heavier truck with a big boxy body towing a boxy trailer into a headwind the temptation is there to put "pedal to the metal" for hours. Derating the engine reduces the likelihood of blowing an engine under such circumstances.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/25/2021 at 9:53 AM, 7Mary3 said:

In other news, Chevy Commercial dealers will have Cummins/Allison powered class 6 and 7 LCF's with GVW's up to 33,000 lbs. later this year, thanks to Isuzu and Spartan Motors.   

Meanwhile.... Didn't Ford have a Cargo,  assembly plant  that recently closed? 

What happened to the factory/equipment?

Didn't they also use Cummins power?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Stopped at a hot dog stand with a trailer that looked like the Oscar Meyer weinermobile and it was hitched to a 1950's Checker taxi cab!  Anyway, a guy pulled in with an LCF Ford.  I asked him how he liked the truck. "It's the worst truck I ever bought."  He said he could never get out of the repair shop for under $4000!  They replaced the injectors, didn't drain and replace the oil, so the engine blew!  Dealer wouldn't accept responsibility, but they came to some kind of arrangement eventually.  Looks like Mercedes is spinning off truck biz.

Edited by Joe771476
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, twintornados said:

 

Sadly, Ford does not believe that there is enough profit margin in class 8 to be fully in it. (Not counting 750 "baby 8")

Apparently VW/Traton gobbling up International, Daimler buying Freightliner, and Volvo buying Mack must mean they're using them for income tax write-offs!   Let's see, you throw out two long main rails, connect them with crossmembers. throw in an engine/transmission -- I don't care what brands -- attach some axles with wheels/tires , oh and a cab!  If Ford can make a class 7 truck, they can make vocational 8's including tandems and a basic tandem axle tractor.  They don't have to do sleepers.  You notice the big boys are pushing tandem dumps to state and municipal DOT's so Ford can't get their foot back in the door with just a single axle baby 8! 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Joe771476 said:

Apparently VW/Traton gobbling up International, Daimler buying Freightliner, and Volvo buying Mack must mean they're using them for income tax write-offs!   Let's see, you throw out two long main rails, connect them with crossmembers. throw in an engine/transmission -- I don't care what brands -- attach some axles with wheels/tires , oh and a cab!  If Ford can make a class 7 truck, they can make vocational 8's including tandems and a basic tandem axle tractor.  They don't have to do sleepers.  You notice the big boys are pushing tandem dumps to state and municipal DOT's so Ford can't get their foot back in the door with just a single axle baby 8! 

 

Not disagreeing with you here....just the reason Ford gave when they sold off "Heavy Truck" and exited stage left.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/30/2021 at 2:10 PM, twintornados said:

 

Not disagreeing with you here....just the reason Ford gave when they sold off "Heavy Truck" and exited stage left.

I was working in R&E when Jacques Nassar announced that they were selling HD Truck.  "We can make more money by just putting that money in the bank and collecting interest !"

 

Same guy who started the Premier Auto Group (Aston Martin, Jaguar, Land Rover and Lincoln.  Only Lincoln is left under the Blue Oval) and bought and sold Kwik Fit in less than 2 years (banks made $1M on each end of that "experiment".

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, theoldwizard1 said:

I was working in R&E when Jacques Nassar announced that they were selling HD Truck.  "We can make more money by just putting that money in the bank and collecting interest !"

 

Same guy who started the Premier Auto Group (Aston Martin, Jaguar, Land Rover and Lincoln.  Only Lincoln is left under the Blue Oval) and bought and sold Kwik Fit in less than 2 years (banks made $1M on each end of that "experiment".

 

Ironically I think the one thing Nassar was right about was heavy truck.  Freightliner never did well with Sterling, despite spending a lot of money on the operation the 8 years or so they ran it.  I think Sterling had 3 factors working against it.  First, the truck itself wasn't really that great.  It did improve over the years, but never enjoyed the market share or reputation of the old Louisville.  Second, although Freightliner was weak in class 7/8 vocational at the time they bought Ford's heavy truck operation they improved dramatically in the ensuing years with the heavy M2 trucks, a big improvement over the FL 70/80.  Third, the 2007 recession slowed commercial truck sales dramatically when Freightliner needed to see a return on their Sterling investment.  I do not believe Freightliner bought Ford's heavy truck operation only to eliminate a competitor.  It is clear they made a solid attempt to grow that business but despite the effort it was ultimately not successful.  

 

I have heard that had Freightliner continued Sterling beyond 2009 they would have needed to toll up a new cab.  Never heard an exact reason why that might have been true (cab design wasn't that old and was competitive), but speculation that Freightliner would not have had access to cab parts and components supplied by Ford and/or Ford vendors after a certain date.  If true the cab situation was likely a factor in Sterling's demise.

 

Remember that at the time of Freightliner's purchase of Ford's heavy truck operation Freightliner was part of DaimlerChrysler.  The name 'Sterling' was chosen for the new operation, but I remember hearing that there were many in DaimlerChrysler that wanted to name it 'Dodge'!  Can you imagine how that would have gone over with the former Ford dealers?  Remember that Sterling sold a version of the Ram 4500/5500 called the 'Bullet', so maybe that Dodge brand idea was more than just a rumor.....      

 

         

Edited by 7Mary3
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think it may have been that they just had too many different cabs dividing up their resources- Even with almost half of a 300k unit/year Class 6-8 market they were only building maybe 100k trucks a year split over too many unique cabs- classic Freightliner conventional, Argosy cabover, Century/Coronado, M2, Condor low tilt, Cascadia, Western Star new cab, Western Star old "Autocar" cab, AND the Sterling HN80 cab! Some cabs had to go, and the Sterling and M2 served the same markets so there was no point in building both.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, GearheadGrrrl said:

I think it may have been that they just had too many different cabs dividing up their resources- Even with almost half of a 300k unit/year Class 6-8 market they were only building maybe 100k trucks a year split over too many unique cabs- classic Freightliner conventional, Argosy cabover, Century/Coronado, M2, Condor low tilt, Cascadia, Western Star new cab, Western Star old "Autocar" cab, AND the Sterling HN80 cab! Some cabs had to go, and the Sterling and M2 served the same markets so there was no point in building both.

 

That's a good point but remember around that time the Argosy, old Freightliner conventional, Condor, and old Western Star were all dropped.  I think a Sterling cab could have been justified had the operation been viable, particularly if a modular design was used to work on all the Sterling/Acterra trucks from class 5 through 8.

 

The original HN80 cab was intended for class 6 through 8, Ford's original intent appears to have been to replace the medium duty F series with an HN80 derivative in 1999.  The Acterra (HN80 cab on an FL60 chassis) was a close approximation to what the medium duty HN80 would have been.  With the HN80 gone Ford made a 'quick and dirty' medium duty F series in 2000 by installing the new Super Duty cab on the old 1980 medium duty F series chassis and building the result in Escobedo for 2 years before 'Blue Diamond'.   

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So ... If Ford is actually working on a twin turbo version of the Godzilla with massive HP, do anyone think it might show up in a Medium Duty ?

 

To be practical, it would have to be coupled with a wide ratio 10 speed transmission.  The new 10R does not seem to be up to the task !  Online, I have not seen the 10R paired with the 7.3L gas except in the F600.  F650 and F750 seem to only be available with the 6R.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, theoldwizard1 said:

So ... If Ford is actually working on a twin turbo version of the Godzilla with massive HP, do anyone think it might show up in a Medium Duty ?

 

To be practical, it would have to be coupled with a wide ratio 10 speed transmission.  The new 10R does not seem to be up to the task !  Online, I have not seen the 10R paired with the 7.3L gas except in the F600.  F650 and F750 seem to only be available with the 6R.

 

I doubt it.  My guess is either it's a crate engine or destined for some low production enthusiast vehicle.  There are pictures of a modified Super Duty that everyone is speculating has the twin-turbo 7.3L in it, but there is no verification what that particular mule has in it. 

 

I think the proven and durable 6R140 is just a more appropriate transmission for commercial vehicles than so far less than stellar 10R140.  The 6R seems to shift sequentially 1-6 in most every instance while the 10 speeds just jump around hunting for the best gear.  I for one wish the 7.3L/6R140 was an option in the 250's and 350's.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, 7Mary3 said:

 

I doubt it.  My guess is either it's a crate engine or destined for some low production enthusiast vehicle.  There are pictures of a modified Super Duty that everyone is speculating has the twin-turbo 7.3L in it, but there is no verification what that particular mule has in it. 

 

I think the proven and durable 6R140 is just a more appropriate transmission for commercial vehicles than so far less than stellar 10R140.  The 6R seems to shift sequentially 1-6 in most every instance while the 10 speeds just jump around hunting for the best gear.  I for one wish the 7.3L/6R140 was an option in the 250's and 350's.  

Well 7M you may be correct but I would not  be so sure on that.

Keep in mind the 7.3 was designed specifically for "medium duty".  Now the key point---an "old" guys definition of "Medium duty" as class 6 and 7, vs. a "new" definition as anything above F-350.

 

If the old definition applies, and if Ecoboost's claim to fame is big torque numbers at low RPM would this not be a natural for 650-750?  As to OlWiz's point on a 10 speed, with all that torque at low RPM associated with the Ecoboost concept, I would think  6 speed might be adequate-assuming the 6R140 can withstand the likely torque output.

 

Keep in mind, as you old guys will recall, when Mack announced the Maxidyne, its attraction was a 5 speed for highway use and a 6 speed for vocational/on/off road.  All  this made possible by a broad torque band with big numbers at low RPM.  Seems to me this is what we are looking at here.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, theoldwizard1 said:

So ... If Ford is actually working on a twin turbo version of the Godzilla with massive HP, do anyone think it might show up in a Medium Duty ?

 

To be practical, it would have to be coupled with a wide ratio 10 speed transmission.  The new 10R does not seem to be up to the task !  Online, I have not seen the 10R paired with the 7.3L gas except in the F600.  F650 and F750 seem to only be available with the 6R.

Look at it another way, all they did was replace the V10, the minimum change required.

 

the 6.7 diesel 10R140 can handle up to 1,000 lbs of engine torque, so it’s not a gearbox problem.

 

Edited by jpd80
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/2/2021 at 3:08 AM, 7Mary3 said:

 

Ironically I think the one thing Nassar was right about was heavy truck.  Freightliner never did well with Sterling, despite spending a lot of money on the operation the 8 years or so they ran it.  I think Sterling had 3 factors working against it.  First, the truck itself wasn't really that great.  It did improve over the years, but never enjoyed the market share or reputation of the old Louisville.  Second, although Freightliner was weak in class 7/8 vocational at the time they bought Ford's heavy truck operation they improved dramatically in the ensuing years with the heavy M2 trucks, a big improvement over the FL 70/80.  Third, the 2007 recession slowed commercial truck sales dramatically when Freightliner needed to see a return on their Sterling investment.  I do not believe Freightliner bought Ford's heavy truck operation only to eliminate a competitor.  It is clear they made a solid attempt to grow that business but despite the effort it was ultimately not successful.  

 

I have heard that had Freightliner continued Sterling beyond 2009 they would have needed to toll up a new cab.  Never heard an exact reason why that might have been true (cab design wasn't that old and was competitive), but speculation that Freightliner would not have had access to cab parts and components supplied by Ford and/or Ford vendors after a certain date.  If true the cab situation was likely a factor in Sterling's demise.

 

Remember that at the time of Freightliner's purchase of Ford's heavy truck operation Freightliner was part of DaimlerChrysler.  The name 'Sterling' was chosen for the new operation, but I remember hearing that there were many in DaimlerChrysler that wanted to name it 'Dodge'!  Can you imagine how that would have gone over with the former Ford dealers?  Remember that Sterling sold a version of the Ram 4500/5500 called the 'Bullet', so maybe that Dodge brand idea was more than just a rumor.....      

 

         

 

Nasser stunk, but he was right about Ford heavy truck.  It was a big money loser for the company.  (And from what I hear from some close friends still at Ford it still loses money today.)  Back when it was Blue Diamond I was working in the truck group (on F-150) and my boss got moved to Chicago to unwind Blue Diamond.  For about 6 months he was the only Ford employee left in Chicago.....talk about awkward!   I left Ford shortly after that to work at a Ford/Sterling (and now a Freightliner/Western Star) Truck dealership.

 

All was not lost on the Sterling purchase as Freightliner did inherit a bunch of good vocational dealers which they needed, some of which have grown into huge dealer groups.  (Peach State Freightliner in the Southeast is one example.) 

 

Sterling needed a new cab in 2009 to meet the new emissions/upcoming OBD/GHG mandates.  (Plus the Sterlings were famous for the weak dashes that cracked dead center which was expensive to repair.)  The Canadian plant was a problem, too, not to mention they needed $500M for a new cab.  So they said screw it we'll just give the M2 a new hood and BOOM, we have a 114SD which can replace the Sterling.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/3/2021 at 1:33 PM, Bob Rosadini said:

If the old definition applies, and if Ecoboost's claim to fame is big torque numbers at low RPM would this not be a natural for 650-750? 

The "true" Medium Duty buyers don't want DI or twin turbos.  Just extra money and more things that can break.

 

K.I.S.S.

Edited by theoldwizard1
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...