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33 minutes ago, theoldwizard1 said:

The "true" Medium Duty buyers don't want DI or twin turbos.  Just extra money and more things that can break.

 

K.I.S.S.

That seems to be the Godzilla's raison d'etre, but if you could get diesel performance without the cost penalties of a diesel mill, that might make some buyers look hard at it. The PSDs are already turbo'd, so that's a wash, plus the Godzilla is already a relatively simple design for a modern gasser, not to mention that you lose the complexities of diesel emissions controls and gain the significantly lower fuel costs of gasoline. It might actually be a very attractive alternative to the diesel in some applications.

 

I wonder if you could run CNG through an EB'd Godzilla...

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5 hours ago, theoldwizard1 said:

The "true" Medium Duty buyers don't want DI or twin turbos.  Just extra money and more things that can break.

 

K.I.S.S.

In my opinion I agree this is correct. Keep it simple.

  I know it won't happen (costs, low volumes, etc) , but I think a much larger displacement in-line 6 or V-8 series, designed for primarily using LNG,CNG,LPG fuels, and kept as simple as

possible, with uses for other markets also, (other OEMs,  Industrial,  etc), would be interesting.

 In many years past, didn't the company have a department/division that marketed engines ?

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8 hours ago, SoonerLS said:

That seems to be the Godzilla's raison d'etre, but if you could get diesel performance without the cost penalties of a diesel mill, that might make some buyers look hard at it. The PSDs are already turbo'd, so that's a wash, plus the Godzilla is already a relatively simple design for a modern gasser, not to mention that you lose the complexities of diesel emissions controls and gain the significantly lower fuel costs of gasoline. It might actually be a very attractive alternative to the diesel in some applications.

 

I wonder if you could run CNG through an EB'd Godzilla...

The problem with Ecoboost in a Super Duty application is that once  you put a constant heavy load

on a boosted gasoline engine  it runs much richer than a large naturally aspirated engine.

(same situation as Max towing  F150, the 5.0 gives better fuel economy than the EBV6.)

 

at an alarming rate, drink fuel it would......

Edited by jpd80
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4 hours ago, jpd80 said:

The problem with Ecoboost in a Super Duty application is that once  you put a constant heavy load

on a boosted gasoline engine  it runs much richer than a large naturally aspirated engine.

(same situation as Max towing  F150, the 5.0 gives better fuel economy than the EBV6.)

 

at an alarming rate, drink fuel it would......

Well JP I'm sure that is where some are of the belief the EB should be referred to as an .."Eco OR Boost".   And doesn't that really have to do with the drivers driving style?   Keep your foot in it, and you will pay.  Back off the pedal, let it grab the next gear and you'll improve your MPG.  

 

And I would agree with Ol'wiz and his KISS suggestion.  But I would say, ever look under the hood of a 6.7 Power Stroke?  Seems to me a pushrod 7.3 might be a draw when it comes to complexity.  And LS brings up the economics of a 7.3 vs a 6.7.

 

I would think a turbo 7.3 will provide good alternative for the medium duty buyer who needs power to get a load moving at least cost.   Be interesting to see if this thing does materialize and if it ends up in 650/750.

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5 hours ago, jpd80 said:

The problem with Ecoboost in a Super Duty application is that once  you put a constant heavy load

on a boosted gasoline engine  it runs much richer than a large naturally aspirated engine.

(same situation as Max towing  F150, the 5.0 gives better fuel economy than the EBV6.)

 

at an alarming rate, drink fuel it would......

I guess it depends on why the EBs run so rich and if there's a way to design around that for the mediums. With the Godzilla, you're starting from a much higher base than you are with the smaller EBs, so it may not be bound by the same constraints.

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23 minutes ago, SoonerLS said:

I guess it depends on why the EBs run so rich and if there's a way to design around that for the mediums. With the Godzilla, you're starting from a much higher base than you are with the smaller EBs, so it may not be bound by the same constraints.

Any time a forced induction engine is running under boost conditions, it must run rich to avoid detonation - even on premium. With heavier trucks like Super Duty and Medium Duty, those engines will in all likelihood be run almost constantly under boost conditions which requires around 11:1 mixtures. 
 

It is possible that the twin turbo Godzilla is the 6.8 high performance variant that’s replacing the SC 5.2 V8 in the next year or so.

 

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It might be wrong of me to quickly dismiss this newcomer without checking what Ford is up to here..

 

Reports of two mules that have twin turbo Godzilla V8 in Super Duty trucks which suggests that Ford 

is looking at adding capacity to the gasoline 7.3 V8, could they be using ethanol boosting to control

detonation and thus avoid the need for those overly rich mixtures?

 

 

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12 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Any time a forced induction engine is running under boost conditions, it must run rich to avoid detonation - even on premium. With heavier trucks like Super Duty and Medium Duty, those engines will in all likelihood be run almost constantly under boost conditions which requires around 11:1 mixtures. 
 

It is possible that the twin turbo Godzilla is the 6.8 high performance variant that’s replacing the SC 5.2 V8 in the next year or so.

 

Real curious to see if it is, and what other applications it will be in.  I just Supercharged my 18 GT, and it would be nice to have a boosted V8 truck to park next to it. 

18GTP1XFE.jpg

196362972_10157662503961580_4007228699735746056_n.jpg

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12 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Any time a forced induction engine is running under boost conditions, it must run rich to avoid detonation - even on premium. With heavier trucks like Super Duty and Medium Duty, those engines will in all likelihood be run almost constantly under boost conditions which requires around 11:1 mixtures. 
 

It is possible that the twin turbo Godzilla is the 6.8 high performance variant that’s replacing the SC 5.2 V8 in the next year or so.

 

E85 does an amazing job at keeping detonation (and fuel mileage) away.

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1 hour ago, LSchicago said:

E85 does an amazing job at keeping detonation (and fuel mileage) away.

Unlike diesel, it can be significantly cheaper than regular unleaded, which helps to offset the milage penalty.  The milage difference should diminish under heavy loads as the higher octane requires less fuel enrichment.  I use E15 in my ecoboost vehicles when I can get it.  Slightly higher octane, lower cost, and no milage penalty.

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23 minutes ago, slemke said:

Unlike diesel, it can be significantly cheaper than regular unleaded, which helps to offset the milage penalty.  The milage difference should diminish under heavy loads as the higher octane requires less fuel enrichment.  I use E15 in my ecoboost vehicles when I can get it.  Slightly higher octane, lower cost, and no milage penalty.

I use E85 in my 2018 Mustang (tuned for it). Requires more frequent fill ups, but the power is amazing.

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I worked in the CNG conversion industry for a ver short time.  It looked very promising then until fracking was applied to oil wells and the price of gasoline dropped.

 

The biggest problem for light duty (including pickups and cars) is the size, cost and weight of the CNG tank.  There was development at the time to make fiberglass tanks wrapped in carbon fiber.  That would have reduced the weight and, if the volume was high enough, the cost would be more reasonable.

 

LPG is still a reasonable alternative for large fleets that have their own storage and filling capability.  They can negotiate good pricing on the fuel.

 

LNG still makes no sense to me.  All of the costs of CNG, plus additional cost for the LNG plumbing.

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11 hours ago, LSchicago said:

E85 does an amazing job at keeping detonation (and fuel mileage) away.

Ford was working with MIT  a few years ago developing ethanol boosting until the partnership fell out. The PFDI that Ford uses with gasoline was originally intended to run E85 through the Direct injectors and gasoline through port injection. Only small amounts of E85 was needed to suppress detonation under boost (~ 5%). Early testing was promising with a boosted 3.6 V6 making over 600 lb ft on 87 and E85. 
 

It was hoped that this would replace diesels when NOX was a big issue but then they developed Adblue SCR and diesels went on their merry way.

Edited by jpd80
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6 hours ago, theoldwizard1 said:

I worked in the CNG conversion industry for a ver short time.  It looked very promising then until fracking was applied to oil wells and the price of gasoline dropped.

 

The biggest problem for light duty (including pickups and cars) is the size, cost and weight of the CNG tank.  There was development at the time to make fiberglass tanks wrapped in carbon fiber.  That would have reduced the weight and, if the volume was high enough, the cost would be more reasonable.

 

LPG is still a reasonable alternative for large fleets that have their own storage and filling capability.  They can negotiate good pricing on the fuel.

 

LNG still makes no sense to me.  All of the costs of CNG, plus additional cost for the LNG plumbing.

 

CNG has a future, but it's in class 7 and 8 trucks.  The conversion business for light duty is fading, only a handful of companies are left and I hear Westport is spinning off their Wing conversion operation.  While CNG converted light duty was popular with utility and municipal fleets until recently, those same fleets are now eager to go to BEV's as quickly as possible.  Not only are their operations ideal for BEV's, municipal and utility fleets want to be seen as 'green' so BEV's are important to create the right image.  I hear some fleets are begging with cash in hand for 3/4-1 ton regular cab chassis.cab trucks as we speak.  Hydrogen fuel cells are also looking a lot more viable for medium and heavy trucks these days.

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The holy grail was getting lower cost to manufacture gasoline engines to behave like Diesel engines,

that in turn, opens the door to a more efficient CNG engine. The key to solving this riddle lies with the

use of a turbocharged gasoline engine, port injection that  feeds the main fuel to be used (87 or CNG)

and a second fuel circuit that delivers direct injection E85 fuel to control detonation.

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Many years ago, ford did a research project that took a 4.7 version of the modular V8, boosted it with turbos and utilized a dual fuel system, port and direct injection to achieve a very high MEP and torque output from 4.7 liters.

One fuel system was used to control engine knock, probably E85 and the other regular unleaded 87.

I just wonder if this strategy will be used with a version of the upcoming 6.8 V8???

edselford

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On 6/7/2021 at 7:46 AM, jpd80 said:

The key to solving this riddle lies with theu useof a turbocharged gasoline engine, port injection that  feeds the main fuel to be used (87 or CNG) and a second fuel circuit that delivers direct injection E85 fuel to control detonation.

Ford and others have done research into this, and yes it does work, but the cost of a secondary injection system is high.  Plus, there is a lot of resistance from customers for having to use 2 different fuels.

 

Last, E85 is still an orphan.  Besides being made from a food crop, it requires a lot of water.  Worst of all, it must be transported by truck or rail greatly increasing it final cost.

 

IMHO, E85 is a pure government subsidy aimed at the farmers but the distillers are making most of the profit.  Car manufacturers woud scream if they dropped the credits for E85.

Edited by theoldwizard1
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On 6/7/2021 at 3:07 AM, 7Mary3 said:

CNG has a future, but it's in class 7 and 8 trucks.

CNG is illogical for any "long haul" application.  The tanks would be ENORMOUS !

 

UPS is still using LNG in a few Class 8/long haul applications.  I would love to see the business rational.

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3 hours ago, theoldwizard1 said:

CNG is illogical for any "long haul" application.  The tanks would be ENORMOUS !

 

UPS is still using LNG in a few Class 8/long haul applications.  I would love to see the business rational.

 

Should have been more specific, regional class 7 and 8.  Long distance class 8 will be hydrogen fuel cell.  Eventually...............

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4 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

 

Should have been more specific, regional class 7 and 8.  Long distance class 8 will be hydrogen fuel cell.  Eventually...............

The one potential advantage for regional fleets, if they are willing to spend the money, is a potential reduction in manpower.

Imagine a fleet of 50 Class 7 trucks.  They all need their fuel tanks topped off every night or the drivers will have to wait at the fuel pump in the AM.  While it would be expensive, individual fuel stations at each parking position is feasible for CNG.  Hook up at the end of shift.  Ready to go in the AM !

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8 hours ago, theoldwizard1 said:

Ford and others have done research into this, and yes it does work, but the cost of a secondary injection system is high.  Plus, there is a lot of resistance from customers for having to use 2 different fuels.

 

Last, E85 is still an orphan.  Besides being made from a food crop, it requires a lot of water.  Worst of all, it must be transported by truck or rail greatly increasing it final cost.

 

IMHO, E85 is a pure government subsidy aimed at the farmers but the distillers are making most of the profit.  Car manufacturers woud scream if they dropped the credits for E85.

The cost of a secondary injection system is not high, most of those components are already in use on PFDI 

that’s on the EB V6 and 5.0 Coyote, the only thing lacking is the separate E85 fuel tank.

 

The real reason that Ford is not using Ethanol boost is because of the falling out with MIT,

that single fuel PFDI system was changed enough to exclude royalties going back to MIT

 

The E85 situation is all about whether you give subsidies that directly support underperforming

farmers or create an industry that creates a need for those crops and actually does some good

for the environment. It’s a contentious political argument but with a commitment to keep it, that

would give manufacturers a reason to persist with E85 as a way of moving away from diesels.


With regards to buyer pushback on using two fuels, diesel  operators now have diesel an Adblue 

at fill ups, so filling up with 87 and then topping up a small E85 tank is hardly likely to upset those

informed users……

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3 hours ago, theoldwizard1 said:

HE is a long way off.  More than 10 years.  Probably more than 20.

Khaleefohneeya was pushing H2 fueling hit and heavy before and into Schwarzenegger's watch, but that seems to have fallen by the wayside. 

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On 6/7/2021 at 11:41 AM, edselford said:

Many years ago, ford did a research project that took a 4.7 version of the modular V8, boosted it with turbos and utilized a dual fuel system, port and direct injection to achieve a very high MEP and torque output from 4.7 liters.

One fuel system was used to control engine knock, probably E85 and the other regular unleaded 87.

I just wonder if this strategy will be used with a version of the upcoming 6.8 V8???

edselford

I don't know about that one, but about 20 years ago they built a Mustang show car (called the Blue Stallion, or maybe Green Stallion, or some variation on the Stallion theme) that ran on gasohol. The higher the percentage of ethanol the higher the power ramped up, with max power coming from either E85 or straight ethanol.

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