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JMC was building and selling rebadged Otosan trucks in China. Obviously both companies were/are owned by Ford which was/is the controlling shareholder so you can draw clear inference that volume provided by JMC would be beneficial to Otosan (which is ultimately Ford) in some way. Although the reason why Ford sold the SA and China truck business is clearly because it was not making money on either... Otosan at least seems to be making profit, not the least due to all the Transit it is making and selling. I've never seen the breakdown of Otosan's revenue/profit by business segment so hard to guess if the F-Max and Cargo lines are making huge profits or just skating by.

Edited by bzcat
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15 minutes ago, 7Mary3 said:

I just found some very interesting information on the redesigned upcoming 2023 F-650 and 750:

 

https://bestnewtruck.com/2023-ford-f650-redesign-specs-and-release-date/

 

Looks like Ford is giving up on the 7.3L gas engine and going back to the 6.8L V-10.  The Guru Loader and Taxi versions are particularly intriguing....... 

 

I hope you're not actually believing anything written in that "article."

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8 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

 

I hope you're not actually believing anything written in that "article."

 

I can't for the life of me figure out the purpose of those kinds of articles, unless they are designed to gauge internet interest in a particular product.  Reads like a bad translation from English to Chinese and back to English.  Nonetheless, I look forward to getting behind the wheel of a 2023 F-650 Guru Loader and enjoy it's fashionable inner, color coordinated tool panel, and enriched bold grille.  I am sure I will be able to run on a myriad of terrains with no type of problem, perhaps even with a box van.  Or something like that.   

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4 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

I just found some very interesting information on the redesigned upcoming 2023 F-650 and 750:

 

https://bestnewtruck.com/2023-ford-f650-redesign-specs-and-release-date/

 

Looks like Ford is giving up on the 7.3L gas engine and going back to the 6.8L V-10.  The Guru Loader and Taxi versions are particularly intriguing....... 

7m-This is some kind of joke? A picture of a 2004 vintage Blue Diamond?  And going back to the V-10????

 

OK..I started typing before scrolling down to RMC's post?

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5 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

 

I can't for the life of me figure out the purpose of those kinds of articles, unless they are designed to gauge internet interest in a particular product.  Reads like a bad translation from English to Chinese and back to English.  Nonetheless, I look forward to getting behind the wheel of a 2023 F-650 Guru Loader and enjoy it's fashionable inner, color coordinated tool panel, and enriched bold grille.  I am sure I will be able to run on a myriad of terrains with no type of problem, perhaps even with a box van.  Or something like that.   

 

Hey, you gave them clicks opening it yourself and then posting it so I/others opened it too.  They're getting what they want out of it - clicks and ad revenue.  That's why they exist lol.

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5 hours ago, Joe771476 said:

I just read that Volvo is buying with JMC in China.  Oops!  It's already been posted!

 

Just JMC Heavy Trucks which was spun off from Ford JMC earlier this year.

 

Ford has already removed any references to JMC Heavy Trucks from its website: https://www.jmc.com.cn/

 

The medium duty cab forward trucks are still part of Ford JMC.

 

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2 hours ago, bzcat said:

 

Just JMC Heavy Trucks which was spun off from Ford JMC earlier this year.

 

Ford has already removed any references to JMC Heavy Trucks from its website: https://www.jmc.com.cn/

 

The medium duty cab forward trucks are still part of Ford JMC.

 

 

I am assuming the JMC Cargo went to Volvo?  The JMC cab forwards are not related to the Cargo.  They look like typical Chinese Isuzu ELF/NPR knockoffs.  Still, if the quality is decent and they can be made to pass U.S. regs., might be a market for them here.

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On 9/2/2021 at 12:34 AM, 7Mary3 said:

 

I am assuming the JMC Cargo went to Volvo?  The JMC cab forwards are not related to the Cargo.  They look like typical Chinese Isuzu ELF/NPR knockoffs.  Still, if the quality is decent and they can be made to pass U.S. regs., might be a market for them here.

I hope not.  I  totally get the allure of the Chinese pricing- friend of mine bought a Sany loader-about size  of a 938  Cat.  Guy is  a flag waving conservative ex USMC-BUT..for what a 938 lists for  he could have bought a second new Sany for a bit  more than the 938 listed for.

 

I  was at a show this past weekend and a guy has a booth selling Chinese chain saws-forgot the name-blue in color.  Saws on display and also parts-exact parts interchangeable with Stihl part numbers-at like half the cost.  I have an 036 Stihl that cost over 500 bucks 30 years ago.  Still going strong-I probably cut 2-4 cords of  firewood a year.  Same size Stihl today is  closer  to 900  bucks.  Stihl  business model?  Built in US and no  big box store sales.

 

Yes I'm old school, and I think about the future my grandkids have.

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If Ford wants to sell its chinese cab forward trucks here, it would have to be engineered to meet US safety and emission standards. Which means it won't be some cut price low cost special. 

 

I do agree that with a blue oval badge on the truck and robust distribution network, Ford can probably sell a lot these trucks. But that is assuming they can find a US emission compliant engine that is already certified for CARB and EPA emission. If they have to certify a new engine, it will never make money, which is why they haven't done it. Ford can't even justify investment in a new E-series... there is no way they can pencil out math to introduce a new cab forward medium duty with new line of engines. 

 

And also one last thing... JMC cab forward trucks are all diesel + manual transmission and that's ok for China. But to sell in the US, Ford will have to find an automatic transmission and gas engine... there is nothing in the cupboard for that application. 7.3 V8 is not going to fit under the seat of JMC truck 

 

 

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6 hours ago, bzcat said:

If Ford wants to sell its chinese cab forward trucks here, it would have to be engineered to meet US safety and emission standards. Which means it won't be some cut price low cost special. 

 

I do agree that with a blue oval badge on the truck and robust distribution network, Ford can probably sell a lot these trucks. But that is assuming they can find a US emission compliant engine that is already certified for CARB and EPA emission. If they have to certify a new engine, it will never make money, which is why they haven't done it. Ford can't even justify investment in a new E-series... there is no way they can pencil out math to introduce a new cab forward medium duty with new line of engines. 

 

And also one last thing... JMC cab forward trucks are all diesel + manual transmission and that's ok for China. But to sell in the US, Ford will have to find an automatic transmission and gas engine... there is nothing in the cupboard for that application. 7.3 V8 is not going to fit under the seat of JMC truck 

The JMC engines are already Euro5 (2016) and maybe even Euro6 by now…..

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Ford's website says the engines meet China 6 which I assume follows closely to Euro 6. But they are not certified for EPA nor CARB use, which is the problem. Even if you assume they are Euro 6 (which means they will likely pass CARB emission test with some modification), it still requires two new rounds of certification and tons of paperwork because neither EPA nor CARB gives a crap about Euro 6 certification. That's could cost $20 or $30 million a piece and we are not even including FMVSS compliance and NHTSA costs. 

 

Also, I'm quite sure the JMC cab forward trucks do not use actual Ford diesel engines except for the smallest one that seems to have a 2.2 Puma. The larger/heavier ones have displacement of 2.8 and 3.3 liter. The 2.8 is probably the Cummins I4 diesel engine that every truck uses in China. The 3.3 is anyone's guess... maybe Isuzu or Toyota (Hino)? I'm certain Ford will not be allow to export those trucks to US market under the current licensing.

 

And besides, the US market will require gas engine and automatic transmission as I mentioned... those are hard costs that will sink any business case for importing the JMC trucks. But maybe not for other markets that just follows Euro 6 and E-NCAP... but pickings are slim once you realize you are going up against formidable players everywhere you want to sell: Toyota (Hino), Isuzu (Isuzu and UD), and Daimler (Fuso). 

 

 

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Bob R. posted on another thread (thanks, Bob) that the air brake option is being delayed another year on 7.3L gas powered 650's and 750's.  This appears to be due to excessively high underhood temps affecting brake components.  That's disappointing news, but I figure most gas engine 650/750 sales are in the less than 26,000# GVW and most of those trucks have hydraulic brakes.  

 

 

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8 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

Bob R. posted on another thread (thanks, Bob) that the air brake option is being delayed another year on 7.3L gas powered 650's and 750's.  This appears to be due to excessively high underhood temps affecting brake components.  That's disappointing news, but I figure most gas engine 650/750 sales are in the less than 26,000# GVW and most of those trucks have hydraulic brakes.  

 

 

7M-you are correct on gas engine popularity in class 4/5 and even 6.  But as you have frequently pointed out, Navistar -and GM- will probably soon have a gas engine for 6-and 7.  And at least around here, a lot of 750's are sold with class 7 components but they are derated to 26,000 gvw to  avoid the cost of a cdl driver.  And if a cdl is a non issue because the truck might be towing a tag trailer exceeding 10,000 lbs, the buyer may not want to  shell out 10-12g for a diesel premium because  his pay out time frame is too long.

I look at the utilities around here-popular combo is a 33,000 GVW dump pulling a tag with like  a 310/410 Deere back hoe.  And juice  brakes are not too attractive for that.

 

I just can't believe Ford can't come up with a solution for this "heat" problem.  ??? Louvers?, Hood scoops?Bigger radiator  for the 7.3?  

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42 minutes ago, Bob Rosadini said:

7M-you are correct on gas engine popularity in class 4/5 and even 6.  But as you have frequently pointed out, Navistar -and GM- will probably soon have a gas engine for 6-and 7.  And at least around here, a lot of 750's are sold with class 7 components but they are derated to 26,000 gvw to  avoid the cost of a cdl driver.  And if a cdl is a non issue because the truck might be towing a tag trailer exceeding 10,000 lbs, the buyer may not want to  shell out 10-12g for a diesel premium because  his pay out time frame is too long.

I look at the utilities around here-popular combo is a 33,000 GVW dump pulling a tag with like  a 310/410 Deere back hoe.  And juice  brakes are not too attractive for that.

 

I just can't believe Ford can't come up with a solution for this "heat" problem.  ??? Louvers?, Hood scoops?Bigger radiator  for the 7.3?  

They probably can, I suspect that all changes could be getting batched into a single update but when that will be, I couldn’t guess…

 

It doesn’t cost Ford $10k more to develop a 6.7 Powerstroke option but they do have a good idea

of how much a Diesel engine is worth  to buyers in terms of fuel savings and residual value.

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On 9/11/2021 at 10:13 PM, jpd80 said:

They probably can, I suspect that all changes could be getting batched into a single update but when that will be, I couldn’t guess…

 

It doesn’t cost Ford $10k more to develop a 6.7 Powerstroke option but they do have a good idea

of how much a Diesel engine is worth  to buyers in terms of fuel savings and residual value.

 

JP- No question as to 6.7 fuel savings IF you have the annual  mileage coupled with the power advantage the 6.7 offers when operating at max load levels a high percentage of time.  The point I harp  on is that there are plenty of operators  who want a class  6/7 but they want it with air brakes.    There are several contractors in my area that send their trucks  out on a daily basis  towing a big air compressor or tag trailer with a TLB/mini ex on board.  These guys typically do utility work or reset catch basins/reset manholes after a roadway gets milled prior to  repaving.  The truck sits while the backhoe or excavator works.  Truck may go out for asphalt or back fill material but it is not in constant use during the day.

 

These guys do not want to shell out that diesel upfront premium price.

 

Residual value for these guys?  truck will rot out before it dies from high mileage.

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On 9/11/2021 at 6:39 PM, Bob Rosadini said:

7M-you are correct on gas engine popularity in class 4/5 and even 6.  But as you have frequently pointed out, Navistar -and GM- will probably soon have a gas engine for 6-and 7.  And at least around here, a lot of 750's are sold with class 7 components but they are derated to 26,000 gvw to  avoid the cost of a cdl driver.  And if a cdl is a non issue because the truck might be towing a tag trailer exceeding 10,000 lbs, the buyer may not want to  shell out 10-12g for a diesel premium because  his pay out time frame is too long.

I look at the utilities around here-popular combo is a 33,000 GVW dump pulling a tag with like  a 310/410 Deere back hoe.  And juice  brakes are not too attractive for that.

 

I just can't believe Ford can't come up with a solution for this "heat" problem.  ??? Louvers?, Hood scoops?Bigger radiator  for the 7.3?  

 

Not sure what happened to the gas engine option for the GM/NAV mediums, but my sources still say 'on the way'.  Guess Covid or the chip shortage?

 

Thinking about the reason for no air brakes with the 7.3L yet, it reminded me of the 'saw cuts' Ford put between the cylinders of the 7.3L.  I read that they were critical for cooling in high GVW conditions, though they look sketchy and Ford has had a lot of problems with this design in aluminum block turbocharged engines.  Another feature about the 7.3L that struck me (when I saw one all apart) is while the block has very large water jackets, the heads don't seem to have much water in them at all (shades of the old FT engines).  That's sort of a$$ backwards, a lot more heat is developed in the head and the block.  Nonetheless, I have not heard of the 7.3L's blowing head gaskets or having overheating issues.          

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4 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

 

Not sure what happened to the gas engine option for the GM/NAV mediums, but my sources still say 'on the way'.  Guess Covid or the chip shortage?

 

Thinking about the reason for no air brakes with the 7.3L yet, it reminded me of the 'saw cuts' Ford put between the cylinders of the 7.3L.  I read that they were critical for cooling in high GVW conditions, though they look sketchy and Ford has had a lot of problems with this design in aluminum block turbocharged engines.  Another feature about the 7.3L that struck me (when I saw one all apart) is while the block has very large water jackets, the heads don't seem to have much water in them at all (shades of the old FT engines).  That's sort of a$$ backwards, a lot more heat is developed in the head and the block.  Nonetheless, I have not heard of the 7.3L's blowing head gaskets or having overheating issues.          

Just curious-what was occasion that you saw  one all apart?  Someone stuffing in a Mustang????

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Ford had a hacked up 7.3L at the L.A. Auto Show in 2019.  Seen the internals a couple of other times as well, but don't worry, they were not failed engines!

 

Have not seen one in a Mustang yet, around here they get LS swaps for racing.  That's quite a combination as the Fox Mustang is so much lighter than a Camaro.  

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9 hours ago, SteelyD said:

The aftermarket is looking at it. Some have contacted Powertrain Engineering for drawings. Rumor has it that Brodix has heads and an intake manifold in the design stage. They stated that the Ford intake manifold was very good. They worked hard to design an improved manifold.

Do you think that an air brakes option is something Ford feels is better left to

a tier 1 supplier to develop for post production fitment?

 

I could see that working much the same way that CNG prep allows buyers to

have that option without Ford handling the complete system.

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13 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Do you think that an air brakes option is something Ford feels is better left to

a tier 1 supplier to develop for post production fitment?

 

I could see that working much the same way that CNG prep allows buyers to

have that option without Ford handling the complete system.

I do not see that happening. The differences in the foundation brakes alone make this impractical. Maybe Ford should just sub out the design of an air brake system fir the F650/750 since they do not seem to have the expertise needed.

 

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