jpd80 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said: thx JP- would you have any history? Stats on 650 BEFORE 600 went into production would be interesting. That was a different time but F650 was regularly hitting 1600 per month and F750 was often 200-250 per month. Ford’s MDs are clearly more attractive to class 6 than class 7, capitalising on lower costs than competitors, without using “industry standard equipment” like engines, gearboxes, axles, braking systems, not much changes. The ball is clearly in Ford’s court, are they happy puttering along at 1200-1500 sales per month or do they want more….. Not meaning to stir up things here, we know the reasons why Ford brought powertrain in house to maximise profitability, would there be any point in shifting/ rebranding to say, an F700 that covers Class 7 better while still covering those sub 26,000 lb sales. Is it as simple as a V12 Godzilla with Allison trans and Spicer axles/ air brakes? Or are competitors already completely covering Class7 better than Ford could ever imagine? Edited October 20, 2021 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slemke Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 Have there been any more sightings or rumors about the turbo Godzilla? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 22 hours ago, jpd80 said: That was a different time but F650 was regularly hitting 1600 per month and F750 was often 200-250 per month. Ford’s MDs are clearly more attractive to class 6 than class 7, capitalising on lower costs than competitors, without using “industry standard equipment” like engines, gearboxes, axles, braking systems, not much changes. The ball is clearly in Ford’s court, are they happy puttering along at 1200-1500 sales per month or do they want more….. Not meaning to stir up things here, we know the reasons why Ford brought powertrain in house to maximise profitability, would there be any point in shifting/ rebranding to say, an F700 that covers Class 7 better while still covering those sub 26,000 lb sales. Is it as simple as a V12 Godzilla with Allison trans and Spicer axles/ air brakes? Or are competitors already completely covering Class7 better than Ford could ever imagine? I would say JP no question on the profitability of the inhouse power trains in 650/750. However, there is no doubt when you look at Paccar, International and F'liner their spec offerings are far more broader than Ford's. Plus all three offer cabs that most would review as more "truck like" in terms of comfort and visibility.. As for "comfort", what is acceptable to a 5'-6", 150 lb driver, won't work for one who is 6'-4", 295 lbs. The one area in whichFord has an advantage is the availability of a gasoline engine that is suitable for a class 7 truck. We hear that GM will soon offer a comparable engine for class 6 and 7 but in the meantime Ford should attempt to capitalize on that engine choice. The first cost savings and PM savings are significant in particular to an operator who does not run a high mileage operation where the diesel MPG offsets upfront and PM costs. One thing that continues to be a problem is that Ford still is not offering an air brake option when the 7.3 is in the vehicle. I and a few others have beat this to death but it should not be the apparent obstacle it is. Likewise while Blue Diamond A (and pre Blue Diamond 650/750 offered Allison transmission, Ford does not. As Allisons continue to gain market share in class 8-as do other automated manuals and fully automatics) the attraction of the Allison name grows IMO. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GearheadGrrrl Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 Without even trying, Ford does a volume in medium, stripped chassis, and cutaways that rivals "serious" truck makers like Volvo's North American production. If Ford took these markets seriously they could be a player in medium if not heavy trucks again... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted October 22, 2021 Share Posted October 22, 2021 Speaking of competition...........? TRUCKS International Refreshes Medium-Duty Truck Line for First Time in 4 Years Jason Cannon, CCJ chief editor Oct 21, 2021 After four model years, International is giving its MV Series an upgrade. International Truck International Truck has unveiled a newly refreshed medium-duty MV Series, for the first time in four model years. When International debuted the MV Series in early 2018, it completed the company’s Project Horizon product refresh and brought driver comfort and fit and finish to Navistar‘s medium-duty segment. In re-tooling the MV Series, International focused on increasing maneuverability, visibility and safety with an extra splash of exterior styling – namely a restyled bumper and black molded-in-color grille with optional chrome surround. When it first debuted, the Class 6/7 truck, which replaced the DuraStar, missed out on many of the aerodynamic refinements found on its Project Horizon-inspired siblings like the LT and RH series. This go-around, the MV Series gets an aerodynamic hood, which along with breakaway mirrors, provides improved visibility. Debbie Shust, vice president of medium-duty truck, noted that while the MV Series was designed to look good, it was also designed to work hard and work safely, and Vice President of Marketing Diane Hames noted that the refresh after four model years was "an evolution, rather than a departure, from our existing strategy." Several optional collision mitigation enhancements are also available including Bendix Wingman Fusion System technology with adaptive cruise, enhanced collision mitigation, multilane vehicle braking, stationary object alert, lane departure warning, and front radar and cameras. The Bendix BlindSpotter Collision Warning System is equipped with side object detection alert. Built for upfit When it first debuted, the Class 6/7 MV Series, which replaced the DuraStar, missed out on many of the aerodynamic refinements found on its Project Horizon-inspired siblings like the LT and RH series.International TruckThe MV Series was also designed with upfitters in mind. A high-efficiency cooling module eliminates mega-brackets enabling integrated front frame extensions and an improved snowplow upfit offering. Smart chassis packaging changes allow for improved body integration and improved operating costs for a wide variety of applications. The Diamond Logic electrical system comes standard, allowing for customized programming for driver and equipment protection, ease of body integration and greater uptime. Hundreds of off-the-shelf features exist today for improved safety, examples of which include: driver safety with the inclusion of pre-trip light inspection, safety on the jobsite with external regen warning, and equipment protection with hydraulic oil power take-off (PTO) shutdown and an outrigger stowed interlock. Hood-mounted splash panels and on-engine air cleaner provide improved under-hood access while an optional under-hood work light is available for improved visibility during daily maintenance checks. The MV Series offers two engine options – the Cummins B6.7 and L9 – with increased fuel efficiency as well as extended and aligned maintenance intervals. Corrosion protection is also improved with InterCoat ChemGuard standard on the cab floor as well as optional LINE-X offering for particularly tough environments. The new MV Series is supported through OnCommand Connection, Navistar’s remote diagnostics system, offering the industry's most comprehensive portfolio of connected vehicle services. Customers have the option to receive real-time information to protect their assets through GPS and geofencing capabilities as well as easy-to-understand and actionable vehicle health reports. The new MV Series includes the option for customers to add International 360 – the service communications platform that makes it easier than ever to seamlessly communicate with the International service network and streamline the repair process. Don’t Miss Out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lfeg Posted October 22, 2021 Share Posted October 22, 2021 Hey, they are keeping up. I noticed one line "designed with upfitters in mind". That is so true. I know guys that work for an outfit that will take in a cab & chassis and equip it for snow plow and spreader duty, and they say that the Internationals are the easiest to work with, especially in the ares of equipment fitment to frame, installing hydraulics, and integrating electrical. They can turn an International around in about 10 days to 2 weeks less time. The only other maker that is even close is Western Star. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 22, 2021 Share Posted October 22, 2021 23 hours ago, GearheadGrrrl said: Without even trying, Ford does a volume in medium, stripped chassis, and cutaways that rivals "serious" truck makers like Volvo's North American production. If Ford took these markets seriously they could be a player in medium if not heavy trucks again... The current corporate attitude at Ford is one of investment opportunity, which current investments do you draw funds from to make MDs better and would they give better ROI than the existing areas you’ve denied funding? The point is that Ford is using profit expressed as a percentage of revenue as a benchmark of improved business. So we see low profit ventures and models stopped even though they’re cash positive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted October 23, 2021 Share Posted October 23, 2021 5 hours ago, jpd80 said: The current corporate attitude at Ford is one of investment opportunity, which current investments do you draw funds from to make MDs better and would they give better ROI than the existing areas you’ve denied funding? The point is that Ford is using profit expressed as a percentage of revenue as a benchmark of improved business. So we see low profit ventures and models stopped even though they’re cash positive. Always seems like that is the logic when we talk about Ford and anything but light duty. And a diverse product mix never seems to enter in to the picture. While there is no doubt that ROI has to be a consideration -and once again my broken record speech- how much would it cost to come up with a few more options for 650/750 that would generate some incremental sales-again I'm not a dreamer who thinks a return to class 8 is in the cards . And to what extent does being a provider up to class 7, make Ford more attractive for buyers when it comes to light duty?? Interesting that GM is back into class 4-6-including vehicles that are outsourced. And as some have reported on this site, in all likelihood will be soon back in class 7. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 23, 2021 Share Posted October 23, 2021 (edited) 7 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said: Always seems like that is the logic when we talk about Ford and anything but light duty. And a diverse product mix never seems to enter in to the picture. While there is no doubt that ROI has to be a consideration -and once again my broken record speech- how much would it cost to come up with a few more options for 650/750 that would generate some incremental sales-again I'm not a dreamer who thinks a return to class 8 is in the cards . And to what extent does being a provider up to class 7, make Ford more attractive for buyers when it comes to light duty?? My sense is that it’s the 25k/year F650/F750 verses the +900k/year sales of F150 to F600 argument, Improving those Class 6 & 7 offerings is not going to have the influence you think on already huge annual sales of F Series. ^^^^^^^^^ this is how I see Ford’s attitude but they should look to at least offer air brakes on F750… Quote Interesting that GM is back into class 4-6-including vehicles that are outsourced. And as some have reported on this site, in all likelihood will be soon back in class 7. These sales exist for the same reason the Ford gasoline MDs do and just because GM has concocted a cheap outsource way back into class 7, that doesn’t guarantee success or even that Ford should follow. Typical GM hubris, throw money at something hoping that some of it sticks and produces results. In Ford’s position, I would do some simple changes that you’ve previously suggested without going overboard. Edited October 23, 2021 by jpd80 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted October 23, 2021 Share Posted October 23, 2021 Well, maybe Ford could partner with VW to re-enter the class 7/8 market in NA..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GearheadGrrrl Posted October 23, 2021 Share Posted October 23, 2021 55 minutes ago, twintornados said: Well, maybe Ford could partner with VW to re-enter the class 7/8 market in NA..... Navistar beat Ford to that marriage opportunity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted October 23, 2021 Share Posted October 23, 2021 10 minutes ago, GearheadGrrrl said: Navistar beat Ford to that marriage opportunity. For sure they did....be interesting to see what impact that has now on the International product line. Sad to see the US left with one heavy truck builder. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted October 23, 2021 Share Posted October 23, 2021 53 minutes ago, GearheadGrrrl said: Navistar beat Ford to that marriage opportunity. You missed my point....now that VW owns Navistar, Ford could partner with VW through Traton and re-enter class 8 OTR trucks and beef up their class 7 offerings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GearheadGrrrl Posted October 23, 2021 Share Posted October 23, 2021 Possible, but VW (Traton)+Navistar is already a messy marriage- They're assembling mediums for GM, Cummins is their primary engine supplier, They just updated their version of the MAN 13 liter engine, and a handful of Scania engineers are in the US while Scania has been hiring more engineers to get their engines EPA certified. I suppose they could. add Ford to that mess, maybe the International dealers would be OK with Ford dealers selling the same product if they got access to International branded Ford vans? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted October 23, 2021 Share Posted October 23, 2021 From what I understand, Navistar is doing well with Traton. The merger was anticipated for quite some time, and International has been manufacturing and using MAN engines for several years. Navistar also considers the joint venture with GM a success. Navistar is assembling GM cut-away vans and the shared class 4-6 medium duty was brought to market with minimal expense. Navistar supplies the chassis and suspension, GM the cab, electrical, and engine. The JV is scheduled to run through 2027, and will likely be extended beyond that. Don't see a place for Ford in that, and given the bad history between Navistar and Ford I feel confident saying a Navistar-Ford tie-up is not going to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GearheadGrrrl Posted October 24, 2021 Share Posted October 24, 2021 How about Ford buying Autocar and getting their low cabover and conventional in the deal? https://www.autocartruck.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamweasel Posted October 24, 2021 Share Posted October 24, 2021 All this talk about Ford class 7-8 is interesting....brings back memories. Problem with all this, though, is even if Ford wanted to build big trucks again they have nobody to sell or service them in most places. So many of them struggle to handle the little 650/750 traffic that come to through those dealerships now. They only have a handful of techs (if that) who can work on these trucks, unlike Freightliner, International or PACCAR who have a dealership full of real truck mechanics. That's a big reason why most truck buyers don't give Ford a look on class 6-7, because if your truck goes into a Ford Service Department it's like a black hole. Poor communication, slow turnaround times, etc. They do not know how to take care of these customers, nor do they stock enough medium or heavy duty truck parts or have as many resources to get parts as quick as other OEM's provide. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted October 24, 2021 Share Posted October 24, 2021 13 hours ago, twintornados said: You missed my point....now that VW owns Navistar, Ford could partner with VW through Traton and re-enter class 8 OTR trucks and beef up their class 7 offerings. 5 hours ago, 7Mary3 said: From what I understand, Navistar is doing well with Traton. The merger was anticipated for quite some time, and International has been manufacturing and using MAN engines for several years. Navistar also considers the joint venture with GM a success. Navistar is assembling GM cut-away vans and the shared class 4-6 medium duty was brought to market with minimal expense. Navistar supplies the chassis and suspension, GM the cab, electrical, and engine. The JV is scheduled to run through 2027, and will likely be extended beyond that. Don't see a place for Ford in that, and given the bad history between Navistar and Ford I feel confident saying a Navistar-Ford tie-up is not going to happen. Agree-snowballs chance in hell IMO that Traton would have anything to do with Ford beyond products they currently don't have in their mix. Why would they? Their dealers would revolt-now they have Ford limping along with a limited product slate-last thing they want to see is a revived Ford back in the game. Plus would "fickle" be the right word to describe Ford when it comes to heavy trucks? How many fleets -and dealers- were caught flat footed when Jac the knife gave the business away to Daimler. For some reason I had an impression that Bill Ford had an affinity for heavy trucks-but if does-or ever did-he manages to let the guys below him do their thing-or "NOT?. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted October 24, 2021 Share Posted October 24, 2021 3 hours ago, iamweasel said: All this talk about Ford class 7-8 is interesting....brings back memories. Problem with all this, though, is even if Ford wanted to build big trucks again they have nobody to sell or service them in most places. So many of them struggle to handle the little 650/750 traffic that come to through those dealerships now. They only have a handful of techs (if that) who can work on these trucks, unlike Freightliner, International or PACCAR who have a dealership full of real truck mechanics. That's a big reason why most truck buyers don't give Ford a look on class 6-7, because if your truck goes into a Ford Service Department it's like a black hole. Poor communication, slow turnaround times, etc. They do not know how to take care of these customers, nor do they stock enough medium or heavy duty truck parts or have as many resources to get parts as quick as other OEM's provide. That's very true, the dealers that handled the big Fords in the past are all gone. Some Rush Truck Centers handle 450-750 Fords, they are not bad but around me that's about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 24, 2021 Share Posted October 24, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said: Agree-snowballs chance in hell IMO that Traton would have anything to do with Ford beyond products they currently don't have in their mix. Why would they? Their dealers would revolt-now they have Ford limping along with a limited product slate-last thing they want to see is a revived Ford back in the game. Plus would "fickle" be the right word to describe Ford when it comes to heavy trucks? How many fleets -and dealers- were caught flat footed when Jac the knife gave the business away to Daimler. For some reason I had an impression that Bill Ford had an affinity for heavy trucks-but if does-or ever did-he manages to let the guys below him do their thing-or "NOT?. I’d say Ford is extremely risk averse, it prefers to play in the safe shallow water of in-house product and power trains. Heck, they’re even super conservative on light vehicle trucks and utilities, as exemplified by slow, safe roll outs and then shocked by stronger than expected buyer interest……almost like they lack that strong conviction to double down on things that are right/slam dunk decisions. The truth probably is that Ford was sold a ton of “blue sky” to get back into Medium Duty and that returns really never eventuated But it’s probably equally true that Ford also chose not build upon its offerings which in turn resulted in a self fulfilling prophecy , possibly a form of confirmation bias that the movers and shakers use to sway the decision makers. Edited October 24, 2021 by jpd80 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted October 24, 2021 Share Posted October 24, 2021 Keep in mind that medium duty class 4-7 trucks are prime candidates for electrification. Most operate on fixed or semi-fixed routes and are parked at the operator's own location at the end of the day or shift. Medium duty trucks typically don't operate over long enough distances where battery recharging would be a problem, and the vehicles themselves can usually accommodate the size and weight of a sufficient battery pack for the required load and range. I think it's becoming more and more apparent that the traditional medium duty truck as we know it has a limited future, and manufacturers are probably becoming reluctant to spend much on current products that will become obsolete in the foreseeable future. Class 8 is a whole 'nuther ball game and I think it's still up in the air which way that market will go, be it hydrogen fuel cell, full EV, hybrid, or even natural gas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 24, 2021 Share Posted October 24, 2021 12 minutes ago, 7Mary3 said: Keep in mind that medium duty class 4-7 trucks are prime candidates for electrification. Most operate on fixed or semi-fixed routes and are parked at the operator's own location at the end of the day or shift. Medium duty trucks typically don't operate over long enough distances where battery recharging would be a problem, and the vehicles themselves can usually accommodate the size and weight of a sufficient battery pack for the required load and range. I think it's becoming more and more apparent that the traditional medium duty truck as we know it has a limited future, and manufacturers are probably becoming reluctant to spend much on current products that will become obsolete in the foreseeable future. Class 8 is a whole 'nuther ball game and I think it's still up in the air which way that market will go, be it hydrogen fuel cell, full EV, hybrid, or even natural gas. All of that is true, it may be a suckers play to double down on what works now when behind the scenes those major truck manufacturers know that electrified large trucks are coming sooner rather than later. Aside from BEVs, things like hybrids and Motor-Generator sets would also add a ton of fuel efficiency that transport companies would instantly see as beneficial to their business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted October 24, 2021 Share Posted October 24, 2021 It was wishful thinking on my part....I realize that the Ford Heavy Truck dealer network has been cast to the wind, but (and this is a huge but), if the dealer service network could be managed through what Traton now controls, that could make for a return to Heavy Truck. Again...I realize that this prospect is a "moon shot" it all likeliness. However, Ford is collaborating with VW on several fronts now... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted October 24, 2021 Share Posted October 24, 2021 5 hours ago, twintornados said: It was wishful thinking on my part....I realize that the Ford Heavy Truck dealer network has been cast to the wind, but (and this is a huge but), if the dealer service network could be managed through what Traton now controls, that could make for a return to Heavy Truck. Again...I realize that this prospect is a "moon shot" it all likeliness. However, Ford is collaborating with VW on several fronts now... Keep in mind Traton is well on the way to becoming a completely separate entity from VAG (as now Daimler Truck is from the restructured Mercedes-Benz). I doubt any tie between Ford and VW could or would lead to any potential collaboration between Ford and Traton. Back to Bill Ford Jr.: I seem to remember he was briefly the head of Ford's heavy truck operation early on in his career. Regardless of what position he held, I am absolutely certain Jac Nassar could not have sold the heavy truck operation to Freightliner unless the Ford family signed off on the deal. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GearheadGrrrl Posted October 24, 2021 Share Posted October 24, 2021 FIAT, Daimler, and now VW Group have spun off their truck operations because investors will pay more for the operations separately than they will under one corporate entity. There's also the fringe benefit that the smaller corporations may be able to merge without antitrust problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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