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18 minutes ago, GearheadGrrrl said:

So then how does little Autocar trucks whose annual revenue would be a rounding error at Ford manage to develop and bring to market an all new Class 8 truck?

 

Because they were already in the Class 8 business.  All they needed to do was put a new cab on top of existing components.  That's easier than someone trying to develop a new class 8 entry when you don't have one already.  That being said, I don't think this will prove to be a profitable venture for them long-term.  They can sell every one they make right now, just due to the massive shortage in truck supply, but when things get back to normal they will struggle to compete with that truck.  

 

Also, while Autocar's revenue is certainly less than Ford, I am pretty confident their Class 6-8 truck business is WAY more profitable than Ford.  (My company sells them, too.)  There is huge margins, both for Autocar and the dealers, on their cabover trucks.  (Which personally, I think they are over-rated and over-priced, but there is a bit of a cult following for these and Crane Carriers.)

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2 hours ago, iamweasel said:

 

Because they were already in the Class 8 business.  All they needed to do was put a new cab on top of existing components.  That's easier than someone trying to develop a new class 8 entry when you don't have one already.  That being said, I don't think this will prove to be a profitable venture for them long-term.  They can sell every one they make right now, just due to the massive shortage in truck supply, but when things get back to normal they will struggle to compete with that truck.  

 

Also, while Autocar's revenue is certainly less than Ford, I am pretty confident their Class 6-8 truck business is WAY more profitable than Ford.  (My company sells them, too.)  There is huge margins, both for Autocar and the dealers, on their cabover trucks.  (Which personally, I think they are over-rated and over-priced, but there is a bit of a cult following for these and Crane Carriers.)

Wouldn't be that hard because big truck chassis dimensions are pretty much standardized across the industry, with the exception of Volvo and their Mack brand, for example the standard width across the frame is 34". Looking at what's already offered as a starting point, there's stout enough frames and inserts to not only handle a tandem but probably up to around a 55k GVW which is enough for 90+% of vocational applications. As far as the PowerStroke surviving at those GVWs, that's mostly the job of the engine control software to protect the engine and powertrain from the more abusive drivers. If more power is needed, just call Cummins and they'll engineer the whole installation. If a longer hood is needed, there's nothing sacred about that F650/750 hood and fiberglass is cheap to tool up- Look at how many different hoods International uses with their cab. And if Ford doesn't think they're up to this (they are), just ship the cabs over to Detroit Chassis and I'm sure they can quite well handle the rest.

Edited by GearheadGrrrl
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Very interesting conversations.  Great information and opinions.

Sadly, at this point in time, I think if the company were to be a major heavy truck manufacturer again,

it would need to purchase an existing North American builder.

Meanwhile, Ford Otosan builds heavy trucks and engines, and last I read was expanding its sales/service in Europe.

Seems odd that some of that knowledge/effort isn't happening in the U.S. (Different markets etc., I know).

Would be great to see a new Louisville style truck in service.

Just my opinion.

 

Edited by 40 Mile
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On 8/31/2021 at 4:57 PM, 7Mary3 said:

 

I can't for the life of me figure out the purpose of those kinds of articles, unless they are designed to gauge internet interest in a particular product.  Reads like a bad translation from English to Chinese and back to English.  Nonetheless, I look forward to getting behind the wheel of a 2023 F-650 Guru Loader and enjoy it's fashionable inner, color coordinated tool panel, and enriched bold grille.  I am sure I will be able to run on a myriad of terrains with no type of problem, perhaps even with a box van.  Or something like that.   

I could have not better say these own person!

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On 11/6/2021 at 9:20 PM, iamweasel said:

 

Because they were already in the Class 8 business.  All they needed to do was put a new cab on top of existing components.  That's easier than someone trying to develop a new class 8 entry when you don't have one already.  That being said, I don't think this will prove to be a profitable venture for them long-term.  They can sell every one they make right now, just due to the massive shortage in truck supply, but when things get back to normal they will struggle to compete with that truck.  

 

Also, while Autocar's revenue is certainly less than Ford, I am pretty confident their Class 6-8 truck business is WAY more profitable than Ford.  (My company sells them, too.)  There is huge margins, both for Autocar and the dealers, on their cabover trucks.  (Which personally, I think they are over-rated and over-priced, but there is a bit of a cult following for these and Crane Carriers.)

Uh, Ford was in class 8 too!  There's no way you can tell me it's that hard to get two rails, connect some cross members, throw on some tires/wheels, an exhaust system, an engine (any engine), a differential and a cab.  if Ford used a cab based on the class 1 thru 5 cab, it would be a home run!  If Ford went into class 8, their medium sales would triple overnight!  And don't give me they don't have a dealer network.  All these truck dealers/repair garages repair every brand, not just the ones they sell!  Just order the parts!

Edited by Joe771476
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October sales:

F600……………624

F650…………1,305

F750……………149

 

It looks like F600 has settled into around 600/mth while F650 seems settled around 1200-1400/mth

but that may change over December/January when fleet orders tend to increase….

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On 11/13/2021 at 6:21 PM, jpd80 said:

October sales:

F600……………624

F650…………1,305

F750……………149

 

It looks like F600 has settled into around 600/mth while F650 seems settled around 1200-1400/mth

but that may change over December/January when fleet orders tend to increase….

Thx- Dealers who advertise in the two monthly truck rags covering New England continue to show few 600's in inventory.  Plenty of 650 dumps.

2023 order guide still shows no air brake option for 650/750 when  equipped with gas . Still say  the both 650750 numbers will jump once air available  with the 7.3.

 

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On 11/13/2021 at 3:21 PM, jpd80 said:

October sales:

F600……………624

F650…………1,305

F750……………149

 

It looks like F600 has settled into around 600/mth while F650 seems settled around 1200-1400/mth

but that may change over December/January when fleet orders tend to increase….

 

Wonder how much longer Ford will be able to justify the 650 and 750 with sales numbers like that.  It would be one thing if the trucks were similar to and built on the same line as other more popular models, but I don't think that is the case.    

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2 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

 

Wonder how much longer Ford will be able to justify the 650 and 750 with sales numbers like that.  It would be one thing if the trucks were similar to and built on the same line as other more popular models, but I don't think that is the case.    

 

From what I understand, all chassis cab trucks come out of OHAP for all Super Duties....

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3 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

 

Wonder how much longer Ford will be able to justify the 650 and 750 with sales numbers like that.  It would be one thing if the trucks were similar to and built on the same line as other more popular models, but I don't think that is the case.    

 

Return on investment, the 7.3 replaced the 6.8 V10 so any sales that help recover those costs is welcome.

Another example of this would be MKT continuing for years even when sales were around 300/mth…

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On the subject of F-600 I saw a new Milton Cat F-600 service truck yesterday.  I think Milton is in the top five in terms of Cat dealer size in the US.  Typical field service truck-nice crane plus all the other toys.  And you can bet they didn't buy just one.

On 11/15/2021 at 1:38 PM, 7Mary3 said:

 

Wonder how much longer Ford will be able to justify the 650 and 750 with sales numbers like that.  It would be one thing if the trucks were similar to and built on the same line as other more popular models, but I don't think that is the case.    

You would think so but someone who would be in a position to know, told me they are satisfied with 15,000 units a year-and I believe TT is correct-all 450/550 chassis  as well are built at OAP.  450 dualies-KTP

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On 11/15/2021 at 10:38 AM, 7Mary3 said:

 

Wonder how much longer Ford will be able to justify the 650 and 750 with sales numbers like that.  It would be one thing if the trucks were similar to and built on the same line as other more popular models, but I don't think that is the case.    

The market for those seem limited and specialized. I can't see them making much profit off of those long term

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 11/15/2021 at 12:38 PM, 7Mary3 said:

 

Wonder how much longer Ford will be able to justify the 650 and 750 with sales numbers like that.  It would be one thing if the trucks were similar to and built on the same line as other more popular models, but I don't think that is the case.    

If I'm not mistaken, Ford is/was the leader in class 6!  In my opinion, class 7 is dependent on class 8 for crossover sales.  In other words, if you don't offer customers class 8, you are not going to sell class 7.

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20 hours ago, Joe771476 said:

If I'm not mistaken, Ford is/was the leader in class 6!  In my opinion, class 7 is dependent on class 8 for crossover sales.  In other words, if you don't offer customers class 8, you are not going to sell class 7.

 

That's not true, Freightliner outsells Ford 2-to-1 in class 6.  (Sometimes 3-to-1.)  International also sells more than Ford and so do the PACCAR twins most times if you add them together.  

 

Ford is the only one of those offering a gas engine in class 6, too.  When you pull those out of the mix, Ford really struggles to compete in class 6.  

 

In class 7, I don't believe that is dependent on class 8.  It is far more connected to class 6, but to compete in class 7 you need the right cab, engine, transmission, numerous buildable combinations/options available, and a dealer network who can support those customers.  Ford doesn't compete well in any of those things.

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13 hours ago, BarneyFord said:

https://freightliner.com/trucks/m2-106/
 

That’s brochure is pretty interesting.  

 

What's really interesting is driving an F-650 and then jumping into an M2!  Like I regularly do....  But that's not to say there isn't a place for a truck like the current F-650, it's the lowest cost competitor (particularly with a gas engine) and it works well for small fleets and municipal operators that don't run too heavy or too far, can use a very basic spec., and are purchase-price sensitive.  I don't believe the current F-650 platform can be developed into a competitive class 7 truck, but Ford can offer a 'faux 7' heavier GVW option as they do with the F-750 and get a few more buyers with almost no investment.  Now while that is all well and good for Ford's customers, the question remains is the F-650 and 750 a profitable line for Ford?  I suspect it probably isn't, though it seems Ford is willing to take the loss in the hope these trucks generate some adjunct light duty sales as others posting here have suggested.  That having been said, I think any expansion of the medium duty F series, as in the form of vendor supplied powertrains, specific cab, tandem axle options, ect. is far more likely to make the line less profitable than it is to improve profitability.  I just don't see much interest in such a truck when there are so many good competitors in the larger (and more expensive) weight classes. 

 

 

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On 11/30/2021 at 7:08 AM, iamweasel said:

 

That's not true, Freightliner outsells Ford 2-to-1 in class 6.  (Sometimes 3-to-1.)  International also sells more than Ford and so do the PACCAR twins most times if you add them together.  

 

Ford is the only one of those offering a gas engine in class 6, too.  When you pull those out of the mix, Ford really struggles to compete in class 6.  

 

In class 7, I don't believe that is dependent on class 8.  It is far more connected to class 6, but to compete in class 7 you need the right cab, engine, transmission, numerous buildable combinations/options available, and a dealer network who can support those customers.  Ford doesn't compete well in any of those things.

When did Freighliner take over class 6?  Ford was the leader for several recent years according to HDT magazine.  Well it's easy to take excess capacity from class 8 and downsize to a class 6 and 7 truck.  Going UP to class 8 is a little more difficult, but not impossible.

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21 minutes ago, Joe771476 said:

When did Freighliner take over class 6?  Ford was the leader for several recent years according to HDT magazine.  Well it's easy to take excess capacity from class 8 and downsize to a class 6 and 7 truck.  Going UP to class 8 is a little more difficult, but not impossible.

 

I think I mis-spoke.   I was thinking class 6-7 as that is what I'm always looking at, as not many people really separate class 6 into it's own category because it doesn't really make sense to do so.  Class 6-7 should always be reported together as they are basically the same trucks.  

 

In Class 6-7 combined, Freightliner has about 40% market share there.  International is #2 then Ford.....

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On 11/30/2021 at 8:08 AM, iamweasel said:

 

That's not true, Freightliner outsells Ford 2-to-1 in class 6.  (Sometimes 3-to-1.)  International also sells more than Ford and so do the PACCAR twins most times if you add them together.  

 

Ford is the only one of those offering a gas engine in class 6, too.  When you pull those out of the mix, Ford really struggles to compete in class 6. 

 

Some sales numbers from a reputable source would be nice....I mean, anyone can say it, but you gotta prove it. Especially here.

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