Jump to content

New Light & Medium Duty News


Recommended Posts

21 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Using Tanks as an example for gas mileage...a M48 with a gas engine with 200 gallons of gas only had a range of 70 miles, where as a M48A5 with a diesel engine with a 300 gallon tank had a range of 310 miles!

 

That was from a long time ago when difference between diesel and gasoline fuel economy was much greater in my opinion.  I’m not familiar with tanks, but a quick search suggest these tanks had air cooled engines, so likely not a good comparison to modern truck engines.

 

A few years back Cummings claimed in an advertisement that their new Diesel engine could improve MPG when installed in a similar-size motorhome by between 20 and 40 percent.  Additionally, comparing EPA Highway ratings for diesel versus gasoline pickup trucks like F-150, RAM and Chevy confirms that fuel economy differences should be in that 20~40% range; which is consistent with BSFC data for modern engines.  In actual motorhome applications, improvement is closer to 8 versus 10 MPG, or about 25% higher MPG.  At present +/- 50% higher per gallon retail cost for diesel, isn’t diesel more expensive to operate?  There is no doubt a technical need for diesel power today when hauling heavy loads, but perhaps it is mostly because there is no equivalent gasoline option.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/22/2022 at 7:58 AM, silvrsvt said:

 

Diesel is losing many of its advantages-part of the reason why diesels lasted so long was they where overbuilt for compression ignition and ran at low RPMs. Now with all the turbocharging and emissions equipment required to make them run cleaner, they really don't have much, if any advantage in light duty applications due to them costing so much more to operate.

Just look at the powerstroke issues over the years-the 6.0L and 6.4L engines where disasters, even though the old 7.3L was almost bulletproof. The in house Ford design seems be an improvement over the 6.0/6.4L design thankfully. 

 

Well, the 6.0/6.4 issues were not "diesel" issues, those were Ford/Navistar issues.  (i.e, bad design...)

 

Diesels keep running at lower and lower RPM's, so not sure where your RPM comment is coming from.  What matters is where the peak torque is, and while Ford has been slower to downspeed their engines other engine makers have been lowering the RPM's needed for years.

 

For instance:

  • Ford's 6.7 = peak torque @ 1800 RPMs
  • Cummins B6.7 = peak torque @ 1600 RPMs
  • Cummins L9 = peak torque @ 1200 RPMs
  • Detroit DD5/DD8 = peak torque @ 1200 RPM's

Ford is a little behind the times when it comes to engine efficiency in this regard.  At 1200 RPM the 6.7 is only generating 550/ft-lb torque which is well behind what Cummins & Detroit can do.    

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, iamweasel said:

Diesels keep running at lower and lower RPM's, so not sure where your RPM comment is coming from.  What matters is where the peak torque is, and while Ford has been slower to downspeed their engines other engine makers have been lowering the RPM's needed for years.

 

For instance:

  •  Ford's 6.7 = peak torque @ 1800 RPMs
  • Cummins B6.7 = peak torque @ 1600 RPMs
  • Cummins L9 = peak torque @ 1200 RPMs
  • Detroit DD5/DD8 = peak torque @ 1200 RPM's

Ford is a little behind the times when it comes to engine efficiency in this regard.  At 1200 RPM the 6.7 is only generating 550/ft-lb torque which is well behind what Cummins & Detroit can do.    

 

 

A different way to view data:  Much of this difference you state above is due to engine dimensions.  It is normal for larger engines to operate at slower RPMs.  If we look at very large Diesel engines like those powering ships for example, their maximum RPM may be just in the 100s.

 

To compensate for significant differences in engine sizes, it is common to express engine speed by using piston speed rather than revolutions per minute.  Basically, an engine with 4-inch stroke must spin at 50% higher RPMs to match one with a 6-inch stroke.

 

The Ford PowerStroke V8 has a stroke of 108 mm, whereas Detroit DD5/DD8 have stroke of 135 mm.  Latest data I can find shows Ford 6.7L PS making 1,050 lb-ft at 1,600 RPM (2022 MY), whereas 7.7L DD8 makes same 1,050 lb-ft but at 1,400 RPM.  However, Ford makes maximum torque at lower piston speed.  Ford V8 also makes more torque per displacement than the inline-6 DD8.

 

Just saying that it’s normal for large diesels like 15-liter I-6 in semi trucks to spin much slower, and for them to make both maximum torque and power at much lower RPM.  And to be clear, I’m not saying that’s necessarily a good thing. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like the 6,7, it has done a good job of repairing Ford’s name with respect to diesels from F250 to F750.

In those vehicles it does a mostly fantastic job but matching larger diesels is simply not going to happen.

 

Happy Hollidays

 

 

Edited by jpd80
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So what about something like a class 7 or 8 diesel electric hybrid that uses a smaller efficient 6.7 diesel with electric assist and regen braking.. is ther any room for operators to extract more efficiency from a diesel based fleet that uses hybrid batteries to accelerate  and get up grades. I’m thinking here about applications with a lot more speed variability than just free running on long flat freeways.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, jpd80 said:

So what about something like a class 7 or 8 diesel electric hybrid that uses a smaller efficient 6.7 diesel with electric assist and regen braking.. is ther any room for operators to extract more efficiency from a diesel based fleet that uses hybrid batteries to accelerate  and get up grades. I’m thinking here about applications with a lot more speed variability than just free running on long flat freeways.

 

It seems reasonable that with hybrid electric power assist, the semi’s ICE can be downsized some.  However, it is probably difficult to make them practical and economical, otherwise hybrid semis would already be common since prototypes have been studied for over 10 years that I’m aware of.

 

A more recent example of a hybrid downsizes OTR diesel from typical 13~15 liters to 8.9 liters, and can also run on natural gas.  Apparently idea is to run as EV in port or restricted areas, and then switch to ICE for longer haul.  Issue I see is that Diesel semi are already quite efficient, so I’m not sure if an engine downsize would save enough fuel to pay for what must be a higher initial cost.

 

https://cleantechnica.com/2022/05/17/us-hybrid-semi-truck-is-zero-emission-port-ready-today/

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/19/2022 at 8:21 AM, Bob Rosadini said:

How about this Ford ad from 1969.  What a good idea!  Of course today, that wouldn't happen because I'm sure the light truck marketing budget doesn't want any space given to 650/750?  "those guys have their own budget"- or some other lame excuse.

"One Ford"    Big Al...I don't think anyone remembers that.

I was just thinking about this the other day. Why can't Ford insert some shots of Ford MEDIUMS in the background into F-series TV ads?  They're F-series, right?

 

Ford 1969 Truck ad.jpeg

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/23/2022 at 12:23 PM, Rick73 said:

 

That was from a long time ago when difference between diesel and gasoline fuel economy was much greater in my opinion.  I’m not familiar with tanks, but a quick search suggest these tanks had air cooled engines, so likely not a good comparison to modern truck engines.

 

A few years back Cummings claimed in an advertisement that their new Diesel engine could improve MPG when installed in a similar-size motorhome by between 20 and 40 percent.  Additionally, comparing EPA Highway ratings for diesel versus gasoline pickup trucks like F-150, RAM and Chevy confirms that fuel economy differences should be in that 20~40% range; which is consistent with BSFC data for modern engines.  In actual motorhome applications, improvement is closer to 8 versus 10 MPG, or about 25% higher MPG.  At present +/- 50% higher per gallon retail cost for diesel, isn’t diesel more expensive to operate?  There is no doubt a technical need for diesel power today when hauling heavy loads, but perhaps it is mostly because there is no equivalent gasoline option.

 

 

Well to take a more modern perspective on it:

A Leopard 2 with a 1500HP diesel engine with 1200L or 317 Gallons can go about 210 miles on the road or 140 miles cross country

 

A M1 Abrams with a gas turbine (yeah I know not the best example) that puts out about 1500HP with 1900 or 500 Gallons can go 265 on the road or 93 to 124 miles cross country.

 

There is a significant difference between amount of fuel carried and well turbines suck down fuel too. There are other advantages, but I think the next gen MBT that the US will use will have a hybrid powerplant. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Yeah I know that but they also where around when Low sulphur Diesel was introduced and that caused alot of issues too.   

The main issue with ULSD of which I'm aware was fuel-delivery related--the high-pressure injector pumps relied on the sulfur for lubrication of the impeller, so when it went away, the impellers would slowly wear away and stop delivering fuel at pressure to the injectors. My dad had to get the injector pump on a tractor rebuilt because of that, but I don't recall that being a major problem with on-road diesels.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Yeah I know that but they also where around when Low sulphur Diesel was introduced and that caused alot of issues too.   

 

That was the least of their problems.  I am sure low sulpher diesel didn't help, but most of the fuel lubricity problems surfaced in the mid-90's.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Slightly off topic, but in the category of "There goes the country,"  I read a news article about police imposters or impersonators driving foreign brand vehicles. A CT State Police official said -- paraphrasing -- that we don't use foreign brand vehicle for police cruisers. Well I'm 99.9% I saw what I believe to be a Toyota police cruiser on a construction site. So one of the last bastions of American brand dominance is gone.  Sad.  They haven't been able to crack the pickup segment.............yet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Joe771476 said:

Slightly off topic, but in the category of "There goes the country,"  I read a news article about police imposters or impersonators driving foreign brand vehicles. A CT State Police official said -- paraphrasing -- that we don't use foreign brand vehicle for police cruisers. Well I'm 99.9% I saw what I believe to be a Toyota police cruiser on a construction site. So one of the last bastions of American brand dominance is gone.  Sad.  They haven't been able to crack the pickup segment.............yet.


That might be the most xenophobic thing you’ve ever typed here.    This is your last warning - keep those thoughts to yourself or don’t bother logging in again.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Joe771476 said:

Slightly off topic, but in the category of "There goes the country,"  I read a news article about police imposters or impersonators driving foreign brand vehicles. A CT State Police official said -- paraphrasing -- that we don't use foreign brand vehicle for police cruisers. Well I'm 99.9% I saw what I believe to be a Toyota police cruiser on a construction site. So one of the last bastions of American brand dominance is gone.  Sad.  They haven't been able to crack the pickup segment.............yet.

More likely to be a security company, they make their vehicles look like police cruisers from a distance.

Edited by jpd80
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, akirby said:


That might be the most xenophobic thing you’ve ever typed here.    This is your last warning - keep those thoughts to yourself or don’t bother logging in again.

 

Uh AK..chill out! My "wokeness meter" is going off the scale... What am I missing?  What did Joe '76 say that fit the definition of xenophobic? .....15 yards for unnecessary roughness in this old guys opinion?.....or education  please as to  what was xenophobic about the post which as I read it, bemoaned the supposed loss of what some deem to be "our" market.

 

I go out of my way to buy "made in USA" for the sake of my grandkids future...does that make me xenophobic?

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Bob Rosadini said:

I go out of my way to buy "made in USA" for the sake of my grandkids future...does that make me xenophobic?

 

No, as a citizen of the U.S. there's nothing wrong with supporting the "home team". But be aware that when it comes to "buy American", the parent company's HQ location should be your first consideration, location of main design and engineering work second, and location of final assembly a distant third.

 

So in the context of medium duty trucking components for example, "buy American" would assign higher preference to a product from Cummins assembled outside the U.S. than a similar product from Navistar assembled in the U.S. Cummins' parent company is American, Navistar's is not. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

 

Uh AK..chill out! My "wokeness meter" is going off the scale... What am I missing?  What did Joe '76 say that fit the definition of xenophobic? .....15 yards for unnecessary roughness in this old guys opinion?.....or education  please as to  what was xenophobic about the post which as I read it, bemoaned the supposed loss of what some deem to be "our" market.

 

I go out of my way to buy "made in USA" for the sake of my grandkids future...does that make me xenophobic?


He got upset that Toyota was not only allowed into NASCAR but (oh the horror) also fielded a Toyota PACE CAR!  That has nothing whatsoever to do with American jobs and he only complains about Asian mfrs not European or other regions.

 

And then to say “There goes the country” just because he saw ONE Toyota police car?  If the shoe fits…..

 


 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

How about Ford getting 75,000 F Series sold last month, 77,300 if you include Lightning.

Must have been a ton of chips and missing parts turn up last month…..

 

Really makes me wonder what sales would be possible with unrestricted production,

plots of customers begging for their vehicles to be built……

Edited by jpd80
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

No, as a citizen of the U.S. there's nothing wrong with supporting the "home team". But be aware that when it comes to "buy American", the parent company's HQ location should be your first consideration, location of main design and engineering work second, and location of final assembly a distant third.

 

So in the context of medium duty trucking components for example, "buy American" would assign higher preference to a product from Cummins assembled outside the U.S. than a similar product from Navistar assembled in the U.S. Cummins' parent company is American, Navistar's is not. 

 

Agree 100% that parent's HQ location should be key-but "final assembly" is also key.  or should I say "made and assembled in USA" - that benefits far more Americans.  But I recognize we live in a world economy and often "assembled in US of domestic and foreign components" is often a trade off.

 

What really pisses me off most?..."Designed, Engineered in US, Made in China".  I'm a stockholder in Irwin...they typically post that message on a lot of products..my reaction.." yeah designed here-like 30 years ago!" And I specifically cite "China" as I have no problem with goods for example made in Japan, EU, etc-countries that provide their citizens with the freedoms we enjoy. But China, no way and to say they can be trusted is a stretch IMO.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, jpd80 said:

How about Ford getting 75,000 F Series sold last month, 77,300 if you include Lightning.

Must have been a ton of chips and missing parts turn up last month…..

 

Really makes me wonder what sales would be possible with unrestricted production,

plots of customers begging for their vehicles to be built……

 

Did you see the WSJ article a few days ago?  Many chip producers are now faced with a coming surplus???

Recognizing that not all chips are "equal".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, akirby said:


He got upset that Toyota was not only allowed into NASCAR but (oh the horror) also fielded a Toyota PACE CAR!  That has nothing whatsoever to do with American jobs and he only complains about Asian mfrs not European or other regions.

 

And then to say “There goes the country” just because he saw ONE Toyota police car?  If the shoe fits…..

 


 

 

AK,

I hear you-but if I had to bet I would say his attitude has more to do with jobs-regardless of the ethnicity of those taking "our" jobs.   But as my late wife would say...."why do you care???"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, Bob Rosadini said:

 

Did you see the WSJ article a few days ago?  Many chip producers are now faced with a coming surplus???

Recognizing that not all chips are "equal".

Those are the advanced process nodes, i.e. graphics processors and cpu's.  TSMC scaled up considerably their advanced fab capability during the crypto boom and are now left with excess capacity on those fabs as demand cratered.  Automotive chips are still built on older fabs.  It would actually benefit the auto industry to consolidate their IC's to newer, more modern chips.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Bob Rosadini said:

What really pisses me off most?..."Designed, Engineered in US, Made in China".  I'm a stockholder in Irwin...

 

The good news in Irwin's case is that as you mentioned, the products are designed and engineered in the U.S. And the parent company, Stanley Black & Decker, is based in the U.S as well. From a shareholder perspective, I wouldn't worry about the assembly location for Irwin products.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...