7Mary3 Posted May 12, 2023 Share Posted May 12, 2023 This just in: https://investor.gm.com/news-releases/news-release-details/gm-envolve-leverages-total-power-gm-create-one-stop-shop Very similar to Ford Pro. What I find interesting (but perhaps not too surprising) is that like Ford Pro, GM Envolve seems more focused on fleet service and support than the actual commercial vehicles themselves. No question that though things like telematics, connectivity, and other fleet business solutions are extremely important, the vehicles themselves have to be applicable to the fleet's business. Daily rental is one thing, but no matter much fleet management software they load up on a Buick Enclave or Lincoln Corsair they will sell few if any to typical business fleets like municipalities, utilities, service industries, ect.. Those fleets like to buy the type of low-margin trucks manufacturers typically ignore for decades like the E-Series and the GM full size vans. Keeping that in mind remember that every low-margin fleet-spec. base model F-450 cab and chassis takes a place on the assembly line that could have been occupied by a $95,000 F-350 Platinum, so perhaps it's not too hard to understand what's really going on. That's a huge factor in today's white-hot truck and SUV market, but of course it won't last forever. One interesting twist GM is putting in Envolve is integrating energy solutions into the program, I expect that to be a factor as fleets transition to EV's and fuel cell technology. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted May 12, 2023 Share Posted May 12, 2023 7 hours ago, 7Mary3 said: This just in: https://investor.gm.com/news-releases/news-release-details/gm-envolve-leverages-total-power-gm-create-one-stop-shop Very similar to Ford Pro. What I find interesting (but perhaps not too surprising) is that like Ford Pro, GM Envolve seems more focused on fleet service and support than the actual commercial vehicles themselves. No question that though things like telematics, connectivity, and other fleet business solutions are extremely important, the vehicles themselves have to be applicable to the fleet's business. Daily rental is one thing, but no matter much fleet management software they load up on a Buick Enclave or Lincoln Corsair they will sell few if any to typical business fleets like municipalities, utilities, service industries, ect.. Those fleets like to buy the type of low-margin trucks manufacturers typically ignore for decades like the E-Series and the GM full size vans. Keeping that in mind remember that every low-margin fleet-spec. base model F-450 cab and chassis takes a place on the assembly line that could have been occupied by a $95,000 F-350 Platinum, so perhaps it's not too hard to understand what's really going on. That's a huge factor in today's white-hot truck and SUV market, but of course it won't last forever. One interesting twist GM is putting in Envolve is integrating energy solutions into the program, I expect that to be a factor as fleets transition to EV's and fuel cell technology. "Monkey see-Monkey do" In any case I imagine your company has some sort of in-house system or you buy from a vendor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted May 12, 2023 Share Posted May 12, 2023 On 5/9/2023 at 8:46 PM, 7Mary3 said: I see a lot of old ones but no new Hino's. Now hearing rumors that Toyota may spin Hino off. Isn't Toyota/Hino a big player in trucks on the world scene? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted May 12, 2023 Share Posted May 12, 2023 8 hours ago, 7Mary3 said: This just in: https://investor.gm.com/news-releases/news-release-details/gm-envolve-leverages-total-power-gm-create-one-stop-shop Very similar to Ford Pro. What I find interesting (but perhaps not too surprising) is that like Ford Pro, GM Envolve seems more focused on fleet service and support than the actual commercial vehicles themselves. Thank you for sharing this GM press release 7Mary3. You are correct, both Ford and GM have moved away from the fleet dumping business model emphasizing overall fleet vehicle sales volume at low or no profit margins to one that emphasizes higher margin services and software. I added a thread topic in the Competing Products part of this site in case any members want to discuss this announcement from GM more generally. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted May 12, 2023 Share Posted May 12, 2023 2 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said: "Monkey see-Monkey do" In any case I imagine your company has some sort of in-house system or you buy from a vendor? Bought from a vendor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted May 12, 2023 Share Posted May 12, 2023 4 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said: Isn't Toyota/Hino a big player in trucks on the world scene? Hino the company is a fully owned subsidiary of Toyota and most of its factory in Japan are actually building other Toyotas (e.g. 4Runner, Prado, Dyna, Coaster etc). It is too fully integrated with the mothership so I don't see how it can be spun off. Toyota would have to somehow backfill all those production capacity or reach some sort of contract manufacturing agreement with an independent Hino after spin off. Not sure there is a lot of economic sense for Toyota to do this. It's not facing a lot of shareholder pressure to increase profit margin like Daimler or VW, which was the main reason they spun off the heavy truck operation. Hino the brand has significant market share in medium and heavy duty trucks and buses in Asia Pacific, Middle East and Africa. But in most markets, it operates under the local Toyota management - i.e. Hino is just like Lexus or Daihatsu in most places - just another Toyota brand without separate management. The US market is actually kind of unique for Hino. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted May 15, 2023 Share Posted May 15, 2023 May have been just the U.S. operation, but in any event it was just a rumor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted May 19, 2023 Share Posted May 19, 2023 Interesting brochure from Freightliner Custom Chassis, because I think it's aimed at the Ford F53: https://www.fccccommercial.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/FCCC_MT6-6L_Flyer_Mar2023.pdf Freightliner is updating the MT chassis with GM's 6.6L gas engine, which they claim offers better fuel economy with more H.P. and torque than 'the competition'. Freightliner also claims less maintanance required for their Allison transmission and larger brakes. All in all I think it's rapidly becoming a moot point as last mile delivery in metropolitan areas are probably the easiest vehicle segment to electrify, and the cost benefit is there. I look for Bright Drop and Rivian to own this segment, maybe Workhorse will get a share if and when they can get their act together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick73 Posted May 19, 2023 Share Posted May 19, 2023 11 hours ago, 7Mary3 said: Interesting brochure from Freightliner Custom Chassis, because I think it's aimed at the Ford F53: https://www.fccccommercial.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/FCCC_MT6-6L_Flyer_Mar2023.pdf Freightliner is updating the MT chassis with GM's 6.6L gas engine, which they claim offers better fuel economy with more H.P. and torque than 'the competition'. Freightliner also claims less maintanance required for their Allison transmission and larger brakes. All in all I think it's rapidly becoming a moot point as last mile delivery in metropolitan areas are probably the easiest vehicle segment to electrify, and the cost benefit is there. I look for Bright Drop and Rivian to own this segment, maybe Workhorse will get a share if and when they can get their act together. Did you mean F-59? Since you mentioned last mile delivery in metro areas, I’m guessing this new chassis is aimed at commercial and not RV applications. Not that there are a lot of physical differences between F-53 and F-59. RV buyers have been downsizing from large Class A motorhomes, which Ford has dominated for years with F-53. Unfortunately, the E-350/450 Stripped Chassis hasn’t caught on with RV manufacturers for smaller Class A. In US as buyers downsize, they prefer Class C over smaller Class As, so maybe this segment will just continue to shrink. Having said that, I’ve wondered if there would be demand for a new or revised chassis with upgraded ride and handling for RV applications, just above the E-450’s GVWR of 14,500 pounds. I know F-53/59 start at 16,000 pounds, but I’m thinking with coil front suspension like on F-550/600, straight frame, lower height, etc. Regarding Freightliner Flyer, it’s hard to imagine how “465 lb/ft torque” made it twice to print. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted May 19, 2023 Share Posted May 19, 2023 (edited) Thanks for the correction, yes F-59. No idea about the 6.6L's torque unless Freightliner is getting a new specific calibration. That might be the case as this is a new version of the engine that is used with Allison 1000/2000 transmissions. Edited May 19, 2023 by 7Mary3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick73 Posted May 19, 2023 Share Posted May 19, 2023 2 hours ago, 7Mary3 said: Thanks for the correction, yes F-59. No idea about the 6.6L's torque unless Freightliner is getting a new specific calibration. That might be the case as this is a new version of the engine that is used with Allison 1000/2000 transmissions. It was the units of measure that surprised me. The 465 sounds about right, but “lb/ft” I find annoying, and something a company like Freightliner should know better. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamweasel Posted May 20, 2023 Share Posted May 20, 2023 In other news, Hino made an announcement to their dealers this week about their allocation in the 2nd half of the year. The announcement was "months ago we gave each of you an allocated number of units for the first 6 months of the year, but now consider that number your yearly allocation as we are unable to offer any more trucks at this time." OUCH. That is just ramping-up the concern/rumors that Hino is planning an exit strategy...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted May 20, 2023 Share Posted May 20, 2023 1 hour ago, iamweasel said: In other news, Hino made an announcement to their dealers this week about their allocation in the 2nd half of the year. The announcement was "months ago we gave each of you an allocated number of units for the first 6 months of the year, but now consider that number your yearly allocation as we are unable to offer any more trucks at this time." OUCH. That is just ramping-up the concern/rumors that Hino is planning an exit strategy...... Wow, did the dealers get any the trucks allocated for the first half of the year yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamweasel Posted May 20, 2023 Share Posted May 20, 2023 10 minutes ago, 7Mary3 said: Wow, did the dealers get any the trucks allocated for the first half of the year yet? First half of 2024CY? No......dealers were basically told "we'll get back to you later this summer on that." So at this point, dealers who have other franchises are converting their customers to other brands since they have no idea if or when they will ever get Hino's again. It's a mess.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted May 20, 2023 Share Posted May 20, 2023 And most Hino dealers do have other franchises.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted May 20, 2023 Share Posted May 20, 2023 Does the "Allison 1000" have any commonality with the GM/Ford JV 8/10 speed? GMC and Chevy advertise "Allison' transmissions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted May 21, 2023 Share Posted May 21, 2023 On 5/20/2023 at 8:37 AM, Bob Rosadini said: Does the "Allison 1000" have any commonality with the GM/Ford JV 8/10 speed? GMC and Chevy advertise "Allison' transmissions It's a bit confusing. The Allison 1000 that Freightliner is using is the older 6 speed that is also used in the Silverado medium duties and Isuzu LCF's. It's a lighter duty version of the 2000 series, not related to the JV 8/10 speed at all. The 10 speed Ford/GM JV transmission is a light duty design used in Mustangs, Camaros, F-150's, Silverado 1500's, ect.. The Ford 10R140 is based on the JV transmission design, but it is significantly larger and heavier. The Allison-branded 10L1000 10 speed used in the Silverado/Sierra HD is similar conceptually to the other new generation 10 speed automatics, but it was designed by GM with input from Allison. There are misconceptions that it is the exact same transmission as the 10R140, but it is not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted May 22, 2023 Share Posted May 22, 2023 8 hours ago, 7Mary3 said: It's a bit confusing. The Allison 1000 that Freightliner is using is the older 6 speed that is also used in the Silverado medium duties and Isuzu LCF's. It's a lighter duty version of the 2000 series, not related to the JV 8/10 speed at all. The 10 speed Ford/GM JV transmission is a light duty design used in Mustangs, Camaros, F-150's, Silverado 1500's, ect.. The Ford 10R140 is based on the JV transmission design, but it is significantly larger and heavier. The Allison-branded 10L1000 10 speed used in the Silverado/Sierra HD is similar conceptually to the other new generation 10 speed automatics, but it was designed by GM with input from Allison. There are misconceptions that it is the exact same transmission as the 10R140, but it is not. Thx for explanation. I would say that gives GM some credibility anytime you can imply "Allison" had anything to do with your product. On another note, and speaking of 10 speeds, I was hoping to get a new Ranger to replace my 19 year old FX4 Level II. which my son bought new in 04 and then I bought it from him in 06 when they decided it was no longer a practical second vehicle. But I'm thinking as I had someone bugging me to buy my 117,000 mile truck, I would be better off to sell it now, with a cash buyer waiting and get a 30,000 mile F-150 that I would have little trouble selling when new Rangers had some production history. Well as it turned out I found a 2022, 150 built 10/22, sold new 12/22 and back in Fomoco Credit's hands in late March, with 8600 miles. I managed to get original owners name and got him to call me back and he said it was a great truck- contractor who spent a lot of time on I-90 going to jobs in western burbs.. Did not tell me it was a repo but did say he was driving a 2018 Silverado now..hmnn? In any case, 5.0 with 3:31 gears. Drive it with a light foot and it will run in the 1100-1400 RPM band. Who knows I may like that Coyote and forget about the Ranger a year from now. Picture of 19 yer old Ranger..always having strangers asking me.."what year is that? B7193B43-4C90-409F-B5B2-CB438DE6E606.heic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted May 22, 2023 Share Posted May 22, 2023 Can't go wrong with that deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe771476 Posted May 22, 2023 Author Share Posted May 22, 2023 I believe electric vehicles will eventually lose traction. I can refill my fuel tank in under 5 minutes! Now unless we're running out of fossil fuel, how can you beat that? What if we run out of Lithium? Or what if the mining companies or mine owners withhold it someday? This all in the name of reducing our carbon footprint because some scientists came up with this greenhouse gas model 50 years ago! Really? These same scientists who said Pluto was a planet, now it's not? The ones who say milk and eggs are good one year, second year not, third year good again? Or the ones who draw 10 possible paths of an impending hurricane because they really don't know where it's going! . I'll say this again for those who missed it. You can't reduce the carbon footprint of a carbon based planet! Without Carbon and CO2, we'd be dead! Every human exhales 2.2 lbs. of CO2 per day. The population of the USA and the world has doubled over the last 50 years, give or take. So let's do away with people! These tree companies want to cut down trees (which take in CO2) within 30 feet of every power line and road in the name of safety. If they had their way, they'd cut down every tree on the planet! Well that's how they eat! Something wrong there, wouldn't you say? I've etched things in boulders at beaches 40 years ago at high tide at midnight (maximum) and the ocean level hasn't risen! All the cars and industrial plants in the world don't emit what human exhalation, rotting vegetation and volcanoes do! But let's believe these scientists for a moment. They say we've had climate change events for millions of years! Forgive the capitals, but THERE WERE NO CARS AND INDUSTRIAL PLANTS BACK THEN!! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted May 22, 2023 Share Posted May 22, 2023 https://www.thewattcar.com/home/binary-thinking-the-enemy-of-climate-friendly-transportation-solutions Great article, it ackowledeges the problems with binary thinking on the environmentalist side as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted May 22, 2023 Share Posted May 22, 2023 34 minutes ago, 7Mary3 said: https://www.thewattcar.com/home/binary-thinking-the-enemy-of-climate-friendly-transportation-solutions Great article, it ackowledeges the problems with binary thinking on the environmentalist side as well. 7M...Great post....as I've said on more than one occasion...."in due time" . I look forward to a pro electrification position that includes all the realistic power generation/transmission sources beyond wind and solar. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoonerLS Posted May 24, 2023 Share Posted May 24, 2023 On 5/19/2023 at 4:20 PM, Rick73 said: It was the units of measure that surprised me. The 465 sounds about right, but “lb/ft” I find annoying, and something a company like Freightliner should know better. Go watch the episode of Leno’s Garage where he drives the new Meyers Manx with the radial engine. The owner of the company is there with Leno, and every time they mention the torque figures he (the owner) calls the units something like “pounds per foot.” It’s kind of jarring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted May 24, 2023 Share Posted May 24, 2023 55 minutes ago, SoonerLS said: Go watch the episode of Leno’s Garage where he drives the new Meyers Manx with the radial engine. The owner of the company is there with Leno, and every time they mention the torque figures he (the owner) calls the units something like “pounds per foot.” It’s kind of jarring. Guys, In the back of my mind wasn't that the way it was expressed years ago?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoonerLS Posted May 24, 2023 Share Posted May 24, 2023 30 minutes ago, Bob Rosadini said: Guys, In the back of my mind wasn't that the way it was expressed years ago?? That would’ve been before my time; I’ve only heard it expressed as foot-pounds or pound-feet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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