New Light & Medium Duty News

[Bob Rosadini]

I posed this same question on my "heavy truck" site and this is a comment I got from an industry guy (as opposed to an "enthusiast". Not saying I always agree with this guy, but for what it is worth. By the way the Paccar products he makes glowing comments about are LCF's. I have posed the question to him, if these vehicles are so great, where does Ford's Cargo variants fit in. we shall see.

 

Here is his response. My first thought, if Raj Nair said this, pretty good authority right?

 

In a move to cut costs, the F-150 and Super-Duty range will be using the same cab (per Raj Nair).

 

Do I feel a pickup cab is ideal for medium truck? No.

 

No longer serious about the US market medium truck segment, Ford is only willing to build a compromise truck utilizing a pickup truck cab, engine and transmission. Back in the day, that was okay. But in the year 2015, most participants recognize that the requirements of an optiized medium truck design are night and day apart from both light and heavy trucks. Take for example the DAF LF (aka Kenworth K270/K370 and Peterbilt 210/220). That is a purpose designed medium truck that will operate with cutting edge efficiency, comfort, economy and maneuverability for many years.

[RichardJensen]

Again, Bob, upfitters and body-builders have pushed the F450 and F550 into awkward uses (transit, ambulance, box van) due to the lack of a diesel in the E-Series, not because Ford is unaware of the major shortcomings of those products.

 

The long term plan is *not* to base the medium duty on truck cabs. The F450 & F550 are best suited for service bodies. And--really--when was the last time you saw a service body on something other than a Ford? I mean, I know they're out there, but I'm surprised whenever I see one (other than the Chevys that BNSF bought when they were in that tiff with Ford).

 

Medium duty is going to have their own cab, and it's not going to be a Super Duty cab (like the 650/750) nor is it going to be too small to accommodate a modern diesel (E350/450).

Edited February 2, 2015 by RichardJensen

[Bob Rosadini]

Again, Bob, upfitters and body-builders have pushed the F450 and F550 into awkward uses (transit, ambulance, box van) due to the lack of a diesel in the E-Series, not because Ford is unaware of the major shortcomings of those products.

 

The long term plan is *not* to base the medium duty on truck cabs. The F450 & F550 are best suited for service bodies. And--really--when was the last time you saw a service body on something other than a Ford? I mean, I know they're out there, but I'm surprised whenever I see one (other than the Chevys that BNSF bought when they were in that tiff with Ford).

 

Medium duty is going to have their own cab, and it's not going to be a Super Duty cab (like the 650/750) nor is it going to be too small to accommodate a modern diesel (E350/450).

Well Richard I hope you are correct about a dedicated cab capable of accommodating a modern diesel. And I hope that means it will handle the length of a 6 cyl as well as the width of a V-8. If it can handle the 6 cyl.that speaks volumes to me about the eventual return to baby 8 vocational trucks as that is not going to happen with a Power Stroke IMO

 

What is your thought on the comment attributed to Raj Nair regarding 150 and Super Duty using the same cab structure. I believe you have alwaus pointed out the inability of a 150 to accommodate a Power Stroke. Does the new aluminum cab have that capability?

[RichardJensen]

I would be very surprised if the firewall and the front portion of the floorpan is shared, and I expect that nothing ahead of the firewall will be shared.

 

When you consider that the volume engine in the F150 is going to be a 2.7L V6, and the volume engine in the SDs is going to be a 6.7L V8, I find it impossible to believe that the engine bay or collision mitigation systems ahead of the firewall will be shared.

[fordmantpw]

What is your thought on the comment attributed to Raj Nair regarding 150 and Super Duty using the same cab structure. I believe you have alwaus pointed out the inability of a 150 to accommodate a Power Stroke. Does the new aluminum cab have that capability?

 

I have always been of the camp that the F150 and F250+ won't share a cab, but if Raj says it will, then I would say it probably will. If they are going to share a cab, then the new Al cab will have to have the capability to house the 6.7L. Exactly how they accomplish that, I don't know. I would expect the firewall and floorpan would have to be greatly different to make room for the big PS and the tranny that supports it.

 

EDIT: RJ beat me by about 20 seconds.

Edited February 2, 2015 by fordmantpw

[7Mary3]

Ya know.... How convinced are we that the 650 and 750 will get their own cab, or at least a larger cab shared with some other commercial vehicle line? It is apparent to me that the idea behind the upcoming 650 and 750 is to offer a basic medium duty that shares as much componentry with existing Ford products as possible in order to be profitable at relatively low sales volumes. When you start talking about vendor supplied drivetrains and dedicated sheetmetal, it seems to me that you are 'straying off the reservation' and the whole point is lost. More importantly, the profitability of the line could become compromised and I think Ford's commitment to medium duty exists only because they see some profits in it (as it should be). Of course, what is to say that some sort of modular commercial cab couldn't be developed that would work for class 4-7 medium trucks and perhaps a larger cutaway type vehicle? You are still talking low volume, but maybe the numbers would be high enough to justify making such a cab. It would likely have a very long production run.

 

I too have heard that the next Super Duty will share an aluminum cab with the F-150. To this point I have also only heard F-250 and F-350 referenced, so maybe the plan is indeed to continue with the current steel SD cab on the 450 and larger trucks.

 

BTW- this is what happens when a car/light truck manufacturer tries to do a medium duty truck. Compromises!

[twintornados]

Back to my original question....has Avon Lake begun building 2015 F650/750's yet??

[RichardJensen]

Ya know.... How convinced are we that the 650 and 750 will get their own cab, or at least a larger cab shared with some other commercial vehicle line?

 

Ford sells upwards of 60k cab/chassis/cutaway E-350/450 a year. Consolidating cabs between a replacement for the E350/450 and the 650/750 makes much more sense than continuing the E-Series on its own cab and the F-650/750 on its own. Especially since there are glaring issues with *both* cabs.

[7Mary3]

 

Ford sells upwards of 60k cab/chassis/cutaway E-350/450 a year. Consolidating cabs between a replacement for the E350/450 and the 650/750 makes much more sense than continuing the E-Series on its own cab and the F-650/750 on its own. Especially since there are glaring issues with *both* cabs.

 

Throw the F 450 and 550 on top of that and you would have even more. But then again, there's that thing about having too large a cab on a class 4/5 truck.

Edited February 2, 2015 by 7Mary3

[RichardJensen]

Of course, there's a SD cab/chassis prototype running around right now that sort of negates all this discussion by suggesting that yes, Ford is moving the 450/550 to the new SD architecture.

[Bob Rosadini]

Just read a USA Today online piece about KTP converting to..." aluminum cab F-250, 350 in next year...". Now assuming the omission of ..450, 550 not just a journalistic error, does that mean 450, 550 morphs onto steel cab 650-750 at Avon Lake? This would leave KTP with 250, 350, Expedition and Navigator, and the 450,550 volume would be a nice fit I would imagine to balance workload at Avon Lake. Also might mean entirely new medium cab based on some Transit components as we have kicked around from time to time (Doors, ""glass house" etc).

Note....KTP converting to aluminum cab F-250, 350.........NO mention of 450, 550

 

Ya know.... How convinced are we that the 650 and 750 will get their own cab, or at least a larger cab shared with some other commercial vehicle line? It is apparent to me that the idea behind the upcoming 650 and 750 is to offer a basic medium duty that shares as much componentry with existing Ford products as possible in order to be profitable at relatively low sales volumes. When you start talking about vendor supplied drivetrains and dedicated sheetmetal, it seems to me that you are 'straying off the reservation' and the whole point is lost. More importantly, the profitability of the line could become compromised and I think Ford's commitment to medium duty exists only because they see some profits in it (as it should be). Of course, what is to say that some sort of modular commercial cab couldn't be developed that would work for class 4-7 medium trucks and perhaps a larger cutaway type vehicle? You are still talking low volume, but maybe the numbers would be high enough to justify making such a cab. It would likely have a very long production run.

 

I too have heard that the next Super Duty will share an aluminum cab with the F-150. To this point I have also only heard F-250 and F-350 referenced, so maybe the plan is indeed to continue with the current steel SD cab on the 450 and larger trucks.

 

BTW- this is what happens when a car/light truck manufacturer tries to do a medium duty truck. Compromises!

Compromises. The world is full of them. When done correctly they work. I hear you on "straying off the reservation". The 64 dollar question is how far can you "stray" and at what cost, and what does it get you in terms of market share. Like for example a 9 liter and an Allison gets you what potential business? Will they challenge Freightliner for class 6/7 supremacy? I don't think so -let F'liner build all the odd ducks!

 

 

Ford sells upwards of 60k cab/chassis/cutaway E-350/450 a year. Consolidating cabs between a replacement for the E350/450 and the 650/750 makes much more sense than continuing the E-Series on its own cab and the F-650/750 on its own. Especially since there are glaring issues with *both* cabs.

Bingo! this is the point I'm suggesting. Add 450-550 to that and you have some decent volume.

 

Of course, there's a SD cab/chassis prototype running around right now that sort of negates all this discussion by suggesting that yes, Ford is moving the 450/550 to the new SD architecture.

Disagree-look at the pix of that SD cab/chassis (flatbed). If ever I saw an F-350 "one ton", that truck is it- no 19.5 rubber in that photo I don't think.

[fordmantpw]

Disagree-look at the pix of that SD cab/chassis (flatbed). If ever I saw an F-350 "one ton", that truck is it- no 19.5 rubber in that photo I don't think.

 

I agree...that's an F-350.

[RichardJensen]

Bingo! this is the point I'm suggesting. Add 450-550 to that and you have some decent volume.

 

I don't get you, Bob.

 

One moment, you're lamenting the lack of configuration options on the 650/750, the next you're lobbying aggressively for Ford to eliminate a quite successful product range that offers class 4/5 buyers options.

 

If Ford is going to build F350s with body-builder frame rails, then there is no conceivable reason why they would not build F450s and F550s with body-builder frame rails. None. If there's a business case for aluminum cabs for one cab/chassis, there is a business case for aluminum cabs for every cab/chassis, since the only meaningful difference, AFAIK, between the F350 cab/chassis and the F550 cab/chassis is the steel frame which is supplied by a Tier 1 vendor and the axles which are also supplied by a Tier 1 vendor.

Edited February 3, 2015 by RichardJensen

[7Mary3]

 

I don't get you, Bob.

 

One moment, you're lamenting the lack of configuration options on the 650/750, the next you're lobbying aggressively for Ford to eliminate a quite successful product range that offers class 4/5 buyers options.

 

If Ford is going to build F350s with body-builder frame rails, then there is no conceivable reason why they would not build F450s and F550s with body-builder frame rails. None. If there's a business case for aluminum cabs for one cab/chassis, there is a business case for aluminum cabs for every cab/chassis, since the only meaningful difference, AFAIK, between the F350 cab/chassis and the F550 cab/chassis is the steel frame which is supplied by a Tier 1 vendor and the axles which are also supplied by a Tier 1 vendor.

 

That's why I stated "But then again, there's that thing about having too large a cab on a class 4/5 truck". It's the Tokick/Kodiak/TerraStar issue, the cab is great for a class 6-up truck, but too large for class 4/5. The only advantage it that it increases the volume of the cab because it's used on more vehicles. But, it is not a good decision. Ford should keep the F-450 and 550 aligned with the lighter Super Duties, if it means using the new aluminum cab or continuing with the current cab.

[econolineman]

For what it's worth....There's massive construction going on at KTP. I work at LAP, but some from the plant are saying Ford is building all new body/paint for the switch to aluminum for the SD's. Since they don't have the luxury of idling the plant the way Dearborn and KCAP did,

 

I guess in theory, they would essentially be able to run both steel and aluminum. Or just run steel up to the moment they need to flip the switch on the aluminum side and go from there. I hadn't considered the possibility of running both until someone mentioned it above, but it sounds if it could be possible from what I've heard.

 

I left OHAP. They're still just building the E-series cutaways. The truck production is tentatively to begin it's launch in May. No specifics known other than that. They're dropping to one shift sometime March/April.

[7Mary3]

One thing is for sure: Those new F-650's and 750's are going to need cabs, and they will use the current steel Super Duty one. Those cabs come from KTP, and it sure looks as though the production of the upcoming aluminum SD pickups will run concurrently, at least for a couple of years.

[Bob Rosadini]

 

I don't get you, Bob.

 

One moment, you're lamenting the lack of configuration options on the 650/750, the next you're lobbying aggressively for Ford to eliminate a quite successful product range that offers class 4/5 buyers options.

 

If Ford is going to build F350s with body-builder frame rails, then there is no conceivable reason why they would not build F450s and F550s with body-builder frame rails. None. If there's a business case for aluminum cabs for one cab/chassis, there is a business case for aluminum cabs for every cab/chassis, since the only meaningful difference, AFAIK, between the F350 cab/chassis and the F550 cab/chassis is the steel frame which is supplied by a Tier 1 vendor and the axles which are also supplied by a Tier 1 vendor.

Richard, I will say I was upset when I saw the "New" 650/750 announcement. But agreed-financially a good move to maximize in house capability that will appeal to a specific class of trade. Having said that, I also hope that the future will lead to an expanded product line (my frequent comments on the Duratorque 6 cylinders used overseas). At no time however have I ever said eliminate 450/550. I recognize these are good sellers. What I have said is with 250-350 going to AL cabs, an NO MENTION made of 450, 550, does this mean a shift of those chassis to OHAP. It's a question! And if that happens, do we see a new cab structure utilizing certain Transit cab components that would be spread across current OHAP E series product as well as 450-750-and hopefully baby 8. I believe you too have supported this last thought.

 

 

That's why I stated "But then again, there's that thing about having too large a cab on a class 4/5 truck". It's the Tokick/Kodiak/TerraStar issue, the cab is great for a class 6-up truck, but too large for class 4/5. The only advantage it that it increases the volume of the cab because it's used on more vehicles. But, it is not a good decision. Ford should keep the F-450 and 550 aligned with the lighter Super Duties, if it means using the new aluminum cab or continuing with the current cab.

7M- I hear you on the "too large cab" issue which you are basing on GM's use of the van derived cab for their class 4,5 and also 6,7 trucks. Could I say that was just poor execution on GM's part? I have never driven one but just looking at the truck I always said..."ungainly"-best way I could describe it. And you might be right-450, 550 stays right where it is using the steel SD cab production with KTP a source for OHAP's 650,750 volume. That does however blow Richards "one cab" theory for OHAP out the window I think.

 

For what it's worth....There's massive construction going on at KTP. I work at LAP, but some from the plant are saying Ford is building all new body/paint for the switch to aluminum for the SD's. Since they don't have the luxury of idling the plant the way Dearborn and KCAP did,

 

I guess in theory, they would essentially be able to run both steel and aluminum. Or just run steel up to the moment they need to flip the switch on the aluminum side and go from there. I hadn't considered the possibility of running both until someone mentioned it above, but it sounds if it could be possible from what I've heard.

 

I left OHAP. They're still just building the E-series cutaways. The truck production is tentatively to begin it's launch in May. No specifics known other than that. They're dropping to one shift sometime March/April.

E-man- thx for your input-great to hear from guys who deal with this every day at the plant level-and I'm sure Fordmantpw appreciates finally getting an answer to just when something starts happening at OHAP. Also perhaps your comment on the new body/paint plant instead of stripping old facility out lends credence to the thought that 450/550 steel SD cabs stay in production at KTP

[theoldwizard]

In a move to cut costs, the F-150 and Super-Duty range will be using the same cab (per Raj Nair).

Super Duty (F350-F550) is NOT Medium Duty.

[theoldwizard]

Again, Bob, upfitters and body-builders have pushed the F450 and F550 into awkward uses (transit, ambulance, box van) due to the lack of a diesel in the E-Series, not because Ford is unaware of the major shortcomings of those products.

It will be interesting to see how those market segments accept the turbo-diesel Transit !

 

I think the ambulance builders may have split. In think the "high end" group will stick with ¾-2 ton "pickup" chassis so that they can carry additional gear. The second tier are basically for "transport only". These have stuck with the van platforms and are more likely to switch to Transit.

[theoldwizard]

For what it's worth....There's massive construction going on at KTP. I work at LAP, but some from the plant are saying Ford is building all new body/paint for the switch to aluminum for the SD's. Since they don't have the luxury of idling the plant the way Dearborn and KCAP did.

Expedition/Navigator is going to an aluminum body. 2016? 2017?

[RichardJensen]

One thing is for sure: Those new F-650's and 750's are going to need cabs, and they will use the current steel Super Duty one. Those cabs come from KTP, and it sure looks as though the production of the upcoming aluminum SD pickups will run concurrently, at least for a couple of years.

 

You forget, Ford provides factory replacement steel panels for collision repair. This means there's steady production of a number of obsolete parts.

 

MD volume is so low that I suspect they can easily offload stamping of the cab pieces to one of their satellite stamping facilities.

 

You can't stamp steel and aluminum on the same dies.

[RichardJensen]

That does however blow Richards "one cab" theory for OHAP out the window I think.

 

I think Ford is going to give E-Series body-builders plenty of lead before the switch. "One cab" is not a near term project, but depends, I would venture to guess, on market reception of the new 650/750. If there's no interest, look for Ford to radically rethink OHAP, but--given Ford's strength elsewhere in commercial--I expect they have a fair idea how many of these MDs they can sell.

Edited February 3, 2015 by RichardJensen

[7Mary3]

No, you can't use the same dies with steel that you use with aluminum, but it's a given they wouldn't be the same anyway because the parts are shaped differently. I am thinking KTP will, at least for some time, have different stamping lines. Big as that place is I think there's plenty of room for 2 cab lines.

[econolineman]

Wizard...I don't know where the Expedition/Navigator fit in the aluminum plans, but coming from KTP along side the SD, I would expect they go that route eventually. KTP is adding a 3rd crew sometime late this year tentatively. I'm over at LAP so I'm getting my info through the vine a bit.

 

This is a post from one of the regular guys over there regarding the upcoming added shift and new bodyshop:

 

The 3 crew schedule for the front end of the plant has always been the 3rd or 4th quarter of 15. The new paint dept and body shop should be active by the spring/early summer of 15, producing ppu's and such. They need to run both for cycle tests, training and to produce pre-production and engineering units. Unlike previous model launches were blocks of units could be run on the same line, this new one requires ALL new tooling in body, hence the reason the new body shop needs to be up and running long before the actual launch. To meet demand and have the extra production capabilities for ppu's the front end (chassis, frame, trim etc.) will need to run 3 crews to support 2 body shops and 2 paint depts to kick those units out. Dearborn switched over to the new 150 while KC continues to build the old 150. We will follow that model, but we will just do it at ONE plant. KTP WILL have 2 body and 2 paint shops running AFTER the LAUNCH of the new SD. Once production ramps up on the new Super Duty our plant will have the capacity to run almost 500,000 units a year. (Good Luck Trim)

 

I know from driving past the plant, there's big construction projects there. Sounds like they're going to have a lot of volume capacity.

[Bob Rosadini]

Super Duty (F350-F550) is NOT Medium Duty.

I never said it was. 650 and 750 are medium duty, class 6 and 7 . There are those on this site however who tend to lump E-450, F-450 and 550 as "mediums" I am not one of them.