New Light & Medium Duty News

[7Mary3]

I just read that originally Bluebird was using a GM 8.1L engine for propane conversion. Then GM called one day and said they would no longer be supplying the engine. So Bluebird went to Ford. I hope Ford doesn't make that same phone call. Check out this video:

 

 

 

 

I am afraid Ford already has. But that does not mean there will not be a replacement eventually.

Edited April 24, 2017 by 7Mary3

[jpd80]

The good part is that end users like Bluebird will now know that Ford has a plan beyond the 6.8 V10.

[theoldwizard]

Ford never did the conversion. It was done by third parties, most notably Roush.

[lfeg]

Ford never did the conversion. It was done by third parties, most notably Roush.

And that is a big issue. Today's fleet buyers seem to be moving to wanting a turnkey solution to fuel choice. The fleet decides what fuel to use, and then buys a package with sole source responsibility for chassis and drivetrain.

[MY93SHO]

Ford ran a commercial truck commercial during Deadliest Catch last night.

 

I think that's the first time I've seen a commercial truck specific ad on tv.

[theoldwizard]

And that is a big issue. Today's fleet buyers seem to be moving to wanting a turnkey solution to fuel choice.

Never going to happen from Ford ! "Been there, done that !"

[Bob Rosadini]

Never going to happen from Ford ! "Been there, done that !"

Well if diesel is loosing favor because of a variety of reasons, and the "green" factor says LPG, CNG, LNG are potential options, does that say -"either get with the program" or continue to lose sales to your competitors who DO provide the turn key approach.

 

I recognize you can't be all things to all customers but sooner or later your lost sales start to hurt you from an economy of scale.

 

Again key issue- will gaseous fuel sales gain in popularity? If they do, Ford is missing that boat-if they don't I guess it was the right decision to not go after the business. If Ford is building engines that are modified internally to qualify for gaseous conversion, how costly is it to carry through with the rest of the mods as the truck is going down the line? They did it before right?

[theoldwizard]

... the "green" factor says LPG, CNG, LNG are potential options, does that say -"either get with the program" or continue to lose sales ...

 

Again key issue- will gaseous fuel sales gain in popularity? If they do, Ford is missing that boat-if they don't I guess it was the right decision to not go after the business. If Ford is building engines that are modified internally to qualify for gaseous conversion, how costly is it to carry through with the rest of the mods as the truck is going down the line? They did it before right?

First, the vehicles we are talking about are for the most part, not swayed by "green factors". These are fleet vehicles and bean counters with sharp pencils is what motivates them. "total cost of ownership" is driving them to gasoline. Several years back AT&T said they were going to switch their entire fleet of service vehicles would change to CNG. Then the cost of oil started to come down and that ended that.

 

Waste Management probably has the largest fleet and they are playing the "green card" hard. Not sure it really helps. I read somewhere that WM was going to re-coop their costs of CNG by having a filling station for each truck. Driver parks the truck at the end of the day and hooks up. It is full by AM. This is a huge LABOR SAVINGS by not having drivers waiting around to fill up from a limited number of liquid pumps or have a bunch of jockeys drive each rig in turn up to the pump and then back to its parking spot.

 

If Ford is building engines that are modified internally to qualify for gaseous conversion, how costly is it to carry through with the rest of the mods as the truck is going down the line?

It is a HUGE cost ! The volume are no where near enough to cover the expense. The "gaseous fuel prep" is simple on an engine. Different valve seat, different valve. That is it.

 

They did it before right?

I do not believe that they did.

 

 

The entire light duty CNG market almost completely collapsed a couple years back. (If it hadn't, I probably would be still working !) There was a lot of consolidation. There is a CNG pump station around the corner from my. Typically, a GGE is more than regular ! At least Ford was smart enough to offer gaseous fuel prep on some F150 engines.

[Bob Rosadini]

First, the vehicles we are talking about are for the most part, not swayed by "green factors". These are fleet vehicles and bean counters with sharp pencils is what motivates them. "total cost of ownership" is driving them to gasoline. Several years back AT&T said they were going to switch their entire fleet of service vehicles would change to CNG. Then the cost of oil started to come down and that ended that.

 

Waste Management probably has the largest fleet and they are playing the "green card" hard. Not sure it really helps. I read somewhere that WM was going to re-coop their costs of CNG by having a filling station for each truck. Driver parks the truck at the end of the day and hooks up. It is full by AM. This is a huge LABOR SAVINGS by not having drivers waiting around to fill up from a limited number of liquid pumps or have a bunch of jockeys drive each rig in turn up to the pump and then back to its parking spot.

 

It is a HUGE cost ! The volume are no where near enough to cover the expense. The "gaseous fuel prep" is simple on an engine. Different valve seat, different valve. That is it.

 

I do not believe that they did.

 

 

The entire light duty CNG market almost completely collapsed a couple years back. (If it hadn't, I probably would be still working !) There was a lot of consolidation. There is a CNG pump station around the corner from my. Typically, a GGE is more than regular ! At least Ford was smart enough to offer gaseous fuel prep on some F150 engines.

Well thanks for setting the record straight- as you indicate you were employed specifically in that area of the business, I will take your word for it.

I do believe however that Ford did offer an in house propane option that was a KTP installation-and if not at KTP it was done at the Manning Equipment site-either way, customer ordered his propane option and next thing it showed up at delivering dealer with no other grief.

[jpd80]

Yeah, the trucks went via approved Ford suppliers and then turn up completed at the dealers,

it avoided all the complexity of adding a dedicated model to the line.

 

Adding a prep kit on the line is relatively easy and gives the LPG/CNG fitters a big leg up.

Edited April 29, 2017 by jpd80

[7Mary3]

As someone who works for a large fleet with many CNG fueled vehicles.......... The 'thing' is this: I don't question Ford's approach from a business standpoint, but it does present some problems for the end user. The biggest one is the availability of parts and service and handling warranty claims through Ford's upfitters. With some of them it is almost comical. Some of the conversions are a lot less that perfect too. Recently we took delivery of one that had tanks that were damaged on installation. Due to the type of tank it was not really much of a safety consideration, but it could have been an issue with a composite tank. But, the idea of it is scary. I think G.M.'s approach is much better. They offer 'factory' CNG conversions. Now, they are not really manufactured as CNG fueled vehicles, they are upfitted by a third party just like the Fords are. However, the big differences are they are ordered through G.M. Fleet dealers, warranty and service is handled through authorized G.M. dealers, and parts are available at the dealer as well. Impco was doing the conversions for G.M., but starting this year P.S.I. is doing them, and they are very well engineered.

 

Funny thing, one of our fleet technicians worked at Ford dealers for years, and said dealing with some of these 'approved' Ford CNG upfitters was as bad as dealing with those companies that built those custom Mustangs back in the 80's and 90's (you know who he was talking about)!

[Joe771476]

This a must-read, a question and answer session with a Ford Commercial Truck head. But still no indication is given if a Class 8 venture is forthcoming.

 

 

 

Ford Discusses Commercial Fleet Outlook - Articles - Operations - Articles - Automotive Fleet

[Joe771476]

I came across two quasi magazines. One is Medium Duty Truck which seems to be something issued by Ford. The cover shows that orange 4 door F750 dump that we caught a glimpse of at a truck show several months ago. The other is Work Truck which has on the cover a white F750 dump. The article has a lot of numbers and facts and also has a photo of that elusive orange F750. The article is still touting the V10 and also the fact that Ford has won the "Work Truck of the Year" award for two consecutive years!

 

 

Ford F-650/F-750 Repeats Medium-Duty Truck of the Year Win - Article - Work Truck

[jpd80]

This a must-read, a question and answer session with a Ford Commercial Truck head. But still no indication is given if a Class 8 venture is forthcoming.

 

 

 

Ford Discusses Commercial Fleet Outlook - Articles - Operations - Articles - Automotive Fleet

Joe, that looks more like an info-mertial about Ford commercial fleet sales across F150 to F150.

 

At first I though the article was about Ford's commercial truck line but it soon becomes apparent that

most of the discussion is about Super Duty fleet sales customers and only touches on what Ford is

doing well in F650 - the 6.8 v10 gas engine.

[MGolden]

FWIW, a local municipality just bought a 750 with powerstroke. Dump/plow configuration. They cant say enough good things about it.

[Bob Rosadini]

Joe, that looks more like an info-mertial about Ford commercial fleet sales across F150 to F150.

 

At first I though the article was about Ford's commercial truck line but it soon becomes apparent that

most of the discussion is about Super Duty fleet sales customers and only touches on what Ford is

doing well in F650 - the 6.8 v10 gas engine

 

This a must-read, a question and answer session with a Ford Commercial Truck head. But still no indication is given if a Class 8 venture is forthcoming.

 

 

 

Ford Discusses Commercial Fleet Outlook - Articles - Operations - Articles - Automotive Fleet

 

This a must-read, a question and answer session with a Ford Commercial Truck head. But still no indication is given if a Class 8 venture is forthcoming.

 

 

 

Ford Discusses Commercial Fleet Outlook - Articles - Operations - Articles - Automotive Fleet

Joe,

I wish I could be as optimistic about this person's interview. But it is more of the same old stuff- oh and ...a new dedicated tractor model for heavy towing applications, apparently she too (Michele Bartlett is a real "truck professional". I wonder when Freightliner, Navistar, Paccar etc will finally wake up to the fact that they should be defining their tractor models as suitable for .." heavy towing"- as one of our frequent posters has said- medium trucks is a dead end when it comes to career progression-then again, I guess I'm just an old guy who misses the old days when there were some people who had a true passion for the business and understood it..

 

Joe, that looks more like an info-mertial about Ford commercial fleet sales across F150 to F150.

 

At first I though the article was about Ford's commercial truck line but it soon becomes apparent that

most of the discussion is about Super Duty fleet sales customers and only touches on what Ford is

doing well in F650 - the 6.8 v10 gas engine.

And that -V-10 gas-IS probably the real reason for the good numbers. There is no alternative at this point. Once GM/Navistar come out with their new offerings and their rumored gas option, its a new ballgame.

[Bob Rosadini]

FWIW, a local municipality just bought a 750 with powerstroke. Dump/plow configuration. They cant say enough good things about it.

Now that IS news. Is this truck in legitimate snow country or the Carolinas?

[jpd80]

And that -V-10 gas-IS probably the real reason for the good numbers. There is no alternative at this point. Once GM/Navistar come out with their new offerings and their rumored gas option, its a new ballgame.

There's no guarantee that a GM-Navistar relationship will be any better than the Ford-Navistar.

 

The reason that GM is cosying up to Navistar is because they're too cheap to do it all themselves.

and that does not auger well for a comprehensive range..

Edited May 1, 2017 by jpd80

[7Mary3]

There's no guarantee that a GM-Navistar relationship will be any better than the Ford-Navistar.

 

 

Yes, there is.

[jpd80]

OK, now I'm interested to know what GM has up its sleeve......

Edited May 1, 2017 by jpd80

[Bob Rosadini]

There's no guarantee that a GM-Navistar relationship will be any better than the Ford-Navistar.

 

The reason that GM is cosying up to Navistar is because they're too cheap to do it all themselves.

and that does not auger well for a comprehensive range..

Well you might be correct, but it would seem that the Ford -Navistar divorce was driven by the suit associated with the Powerstroke (6.4/6.0) disaster was it not? Plus it looked like Ford used the JV breakup to its advantage in UAW negotiations as a nice bargaining chip with the offer of...."play nice and we will start building mediums at Avon Lake." These two factors will not be an influence in the GM deal.

 

However, for the sake of my stock and my Ford allegiance I hope you are right-and I recognize you seem to have some good insights.

[twintornados]

FWIW, a local municipality just bought a 750 with powerstroke. Dump/plow configuration. They cant say enough good things about it.

.

[hwyman3]

There's no guarantee that a GM-Navistar relationship will be any better than the Ford-Navistar.

 

The reason that GM is cosying up to Navistar is because they're too cheap to do it all themselves.

and that does not auger well for a comprehensive range..

 

 

The biggest reason the Ford-Navistar JV didn't work out, as was already said, was the 6.0 Powerstroke mess. I have read that the new GM-Navistar JV will have a Gas Engine option from GM, not sure what Diesels they will use. I know different buyers around in my area (utilities and Rescue Squads) that were buying Internationals and have switched to Freightliner. The Navistars have not been very reliable here the past few years.

 

Navistar just doesn't seem to be able to keep a JV going lately either. First the Ford-Navistar JV and the Cat also left Navistar. I guess time will tell.

[RichardJensen]

Ok. Let's pause for a minute on this GM/Navistar thing.

 

First: What medium duty gas engine does GM have on the market right now? AFAIK, they don't have any.

 

Why would we assume that a clean-sheet design from GM will be better than Ford's current offering?

 

Second: Why did Ford and Navistar split? Because of a Navistar supplied diesel. Why did CAT and Navistar split? Because of a Navistar supplied diesel.

 

​Why would we assume that Navistar will come up with a better diesel than the Scorpion, when Ford engineered the Scorpion manifestly because Navistar could not supply a better diesel than the Scorpion.

​Third: What will be the incentive to purchase a GM/Navistar MD?

Will these trucks be cheaper than Ford's? And if so, will they be sustainably profitable for GM/Navistar?

Does either GM or Navistar have a better network of MD dealers or a better MD fleet sales operation?

​I'm not worried about the GM/Navistar operation. They're in many ways starting from scratch and trying to use each other as leverage into an area where neither of them are particularly good. IMO, it'd be like a guy who repairs watches teaming up with a guy who repairs grandfather clocks in order to break into the radio repair business.

[J-150]

So... does GM keep the Isuzu Duramax or go to a Navi diesel?