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Joe771476

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The 6.0L and 4.5L Powerstrokes were not PR nightmares.  They were nightmares period!  Just plain unreliable and expensive to repair.  Anyway, very true about gas engines, particularly in class 4 through 6.  Isuzu has reshuffled their model lineup for 2020, the popular NPR will be gasoline only but diesels will still be available in the NRR and NQR.  The class 6 FTR is rumored to be getting the new GM 6.6L gas engine sometime in 2020, and the 6.6L will likely be in the Silverado medium/International CV around the same time.  The 7.3L is definitely the right move for Ford, I could see it outselling the 6.7L Powerstroke in commercial F series trucks within a few years.

There are a couple of rumors I am hearing that if true could mean more competition for Ford.  The first is a larger gasoline engine for the medium duty Rams, along with a class 6 offering.  If true, I think the engine would likely be a 7L heavy duty version of the Hemi, and no doubt the truck would be a 6500 version of the Ram 5500 cab and chassis, like the new F-600.  The second rumor is another GM/Navistar JV  truck, this time a class 7.  It may be in the form of a replacement for the current International DuraStar/MV series with GM supplying a new 8L+ gasoline V-8.  

Even if all this comes to pass, I think Ford is in a good position in class 3 through 5.  Class 6 and 7 is a little cloudy, I think Ford will need to maintain a cost advantage over their competitors to be successful. 

    

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5 minutes ago, 7Mary3 said:

The 6.0L and 4.5L Powerstrokes were not PR nightmares.  They were nightmares period!  Just plain unreliable and expensive to repair.  Anyway, very true about gas engines, particularly in class 4 through 6.  Isuzu has reshuffled their model lineup for 2020, the popular NPR will be gasoline only but diesels will still be available in the NRR and NQR.  The class 6 FTR is rumored to be getting the new GM 6.6L gas engine sometime in 2020, and the 6.6L will likely be in the Silverado medium/International CV around the same time.  The 7.3L is definitely the right move for Ford, I could see it outselling the 6.7L Powerstroke in commercial F series trucks within a few years.

There are a couple of rumors I am hearing that if true could mean more competition for Ford.  The first is a larger gasoline engine for the medium duty Rams, along with a class 6 offering.  If true, I think the engine would likely be a 7L heavy duty version of the Hemi, and no doubt the truck would be a 6500 version of the Ram 5500 cab and chassis, like the new F-600.  The second rumor is another GM/Navistar JV  truck, this time a class 7.  It may be in the form of a replacement for the current International DuraStar/MV series with GM supplying a new 8L+ gasoline V-8.  

Even if all this comes to pass, I think Ford is in a good position in class 3 through 5.  Class 6 and 7 is a little cloudy, I think Ford will need to maintain a cost advantage over their competitors to be successful. 

    

Could you imagine an LCF with the 7.3L Windsor gas in place of the 4.5L PS.....

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9 minutes ago, 7Mary3 said:

The 6.0L and 4.5L Powerstrokes were not PR nightmares.  They were nightmares period!  Just plain unreliable and expensive to repair. 

Only because of morons who didn't take care of them properly or idiots trying to repair them. They needed something that the 7.3 never did... maintenance. 

99% of the injector issues were fuel pressure and oil quality. 90% of the FICM issues were guys who didn't keep the charging system up to snuff. Stuck Turbo? Can't let them sit. They were designed to work every day, not be grocery getters. EGR cooler failures were usually lack of maintenance of the cooling system, leading to oil cooler failure plugging which starved the EGR cooler. Headgaskets were the only real issue that could be blamed on design. 

Most of the heavy truck applications of the VT365 never had 90% of the issues Ford did with the engine. 

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Our fleet never had too many 6.0L Powerstrokes, but they were trouble.  And if anything, we over-maintained them.  A couple of our techs. were recruited from Ford dealerships, and their expertise was invaluable.  The proof for us was the fact that right alongside the 6.0L Powerstrokes we had 7.3L Powerstrokes, 5.9L and 6.7L Cummins B's, Isuzu 4HK1's, and a couple of Duramax's that were far less trouble and less expensive to own in the same applications.  We did have one oddball F-650 with a 6.0L, and it wasn't really any better than the F-450's.

We have an employee that had a F-250 Super Duty and he rebuilt the 6.0L with the special head gaskets and stud kit, did an EGR delete and an bunch of other modifications and did pretty well with it.   

 

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8 hours ago, theoldwizard said:

I always thought that part of the Blue Diamond LCF lack of success was simply low demand.  Has that changed ?

There was plenty of demand. LCF failed because the unreliable diesel engine.

Isuzu, Toyota (Hino), Daimler (Fuso), Volvo (UD), and Paccar all sell cab forward mediums. GM is also back in the segment thanks to Isuzu. So the only player not in the market right now are FCA, Ford, and Navistar. I imagine Navistar will probably be back once VW is able to exercise more influence over product development and offering.

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20 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

Our fleet never had too many 6.0L Powerstrokes, but they were trouble.  And if anything, we over-maintained them.  A couple of our techs. were recruited from Ford dealerships, and their expertise was invaluable.  The proof for us was the fact that right alongside the 6.0L Powerstrokes we had 7.3L Powerstrokes, 5.9L and 6.7L Cummins B's, Isuzu 4HK1's, and a couple of Duramax's that were far less trouble and less expensive to own in the same applications.  We did have one oddball F-650 with a 6.0L, and it wasn't really any better than the F-450's.

We have an employee that had a F-250 Super Duty and he rebuilt the 6.0L with the special head gaskets and stud kit, did an EGR delete and an bunch of other modifications and did pretty well with it.   

 

If you think the 6.0 was bad, you have never experienced the 6.4. 

7.3 was reliable IF you could keep the valve cover gaskets and under valve cover harnesses from burning up or coming loose, OR keep the EBP's from sticking shut, OR the up pipes didn't start leaking and losing drive pressure on the turbo, OR keep the water pumps from leaking and/or dropping the fan in the radiator, OR keep the IDM dry, OR worst of all keep oil in it from the HPOP, external HP oil lines, cross drill ports, galley plugs, turbo pedestal and rotted oil pans. But yeah, the base engine was reliable because it made so little power it couldn't break... that is, unless you had sintered rods. In light duty applications the OBS dual mass flywheel always broke and the 6 speed manual was an absolute POS. The topper? E4OD/4R100.  

Proper maintenance procedures and timing, blue spring regulator, fuel pressure guage and volt meter solve 80% of the stock 6.0 "problems" as long as the operator will use them and the T/S 5 was WORLDS better than the 4 speed ever dreamed. 

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I never seem to get bored with these.  You just don't see this stuff in the states!  Or I never have anyway.   These trucks are gigantico!  LOL  Only about 3 minutes

Camiones TORTON FORD CLASICOS de la VIEJA ESCUELA #2!! - YouTube

Edited by Joe771476

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Number 10 surprised me, but when I told some people they said yeah, the electro chemicals in the brain boost the reach.  Crazy!  I hope 1 thru 9 are in the manual because I can't remember half of what he said!

Top 10 Hidden Features of the New F150! - YouTube

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 Well I did a drive  through the Altech installation facility here in Lancaster MA.  Small facility with I think like no more than six installation bays.  They must have around 75 new F-550 (mostly Power Strokes and all white) in the yard and ONE 5500 Ram.  thought by now the new GM/Navistars in 4500/5500 range would be showing up but not the case.  As for class 7 and 8's Mostly F'liners with a large number of Internationals.  Even a few KW's and Western stars.

Interesting that there were always F-750's there in the old days when you could get a Cummins or a Cat in them with an  Allison.  No doubt the utility industry does NOT think a lot of the new 750 Power Stroke/ Torque shift combo in the  higher weight classes.

Class 5?  Ford continues to rule-at least by what you see in this Altech yard.  And I just saw the 3mos ytd sales figures as posted in HDT.  Ford finally outsold Ram in 3-4- and 5.  Have not seen a new GM/Navistar JV class 4,5,6 on road yet although some New England dealers are advertising they have inventory.

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April sales

Brand.............April '19......April '18.........%..........YTD '19.......YTD '18.......% change                                         

RAM Class 5........1,414............990......42.8%...........4,127............4,473..........–7.7%  

Brand...................April '19......April '18......%.............YTD '19.......YTD '18.......% change 
Class 4........................2,940............2,936......0.1%...........9,111..........11,999.........–24.1%                                               Class 5 ..................... 4,596...........4,244.......8.3%.........17,347..........16,556............4.8%
Class 6 ..................... 2,929..........1,453....101.6%...........7,504............6,101...........23.0%
Class 7 ........................140...............58....141.4%..............756..............504.............50.0%
Class 8 ............................5..................8....–37.5%...............32................40...........–20.0%
Ford .........................10,610.........8,699......22.0%.......34,750........35,200...........–1.3%

Brand..................April '19......April '18......%.............YTD '19.......YTD '18.......% change  
Class 4 .........................13.............35.....–62.9%..............241...............312..........–22.8%
Class 5 .......................412............542.....–24.0%...........1,461.............1,189..........22.9%
Class 6 ....................1,256..........2,021.....–37.9%...........7,522.............8,436........–10.8%
Class 7 ....................2,769..........2,358.......17.4%...........9,691.............9,588............1.1%
Class 8 ....................8,209..........6,400.......28.3%..........33,795...........25,446..........32.8%
Freightliner ..........12,659......11,356......11.5%..........52,710.........44,971.........17.2%

Brand.................April '19......April '18......%.............YTD '19.......YTD '18.......% change  
Class 4 ........................79...............151...–47.7%...............258.............448...........–42.4%
Class 5 ......................284...............205.....38.5%...............839.............864.............–2.9%
Class 6 ......................526...............568.....–7.4%.............2,231..........2,524...........–11.6%
Class 7 ......................144.................94.....53.2%................643.............532.............20.9%
Hino......................1,033...........1,018......1.5%...........3,971..........4,368...........–9.1%

Brand................April '19......April '18......%.............YTD '19.......YTD '18.......% change  
Class 3 & 4 ....................1................–........–.......................1................ –................. –
Class 5 ........................19................1........– ....................34.................9...............277.8%
Class 6 ....................1,862.........1,598.....16.5%............ 8,428...........6,406.............31.6%
Class 7 ....................1,220............905.....34.8%.............4,929...........3,834.............28.6%
Class 8 ....................3,537.........2,826.....25.2%............12,902...........9,372.............37.7%
International .........6,639........5,330....24.6%............26,294.......19,621............34.0%

Brand.....................April '19......April '18..........%.............YTD '19..... ..YTD '18.......% change 
Class 3 & 4 ..............1,855............1,593......16.4%.............4,792.............4,516..........6.1%
Class 5 ......................468................503.......–7.0%............1,694.............1,577..........7.4%
Class 6 ........................78..................93......–16.1%...............338...............323...........4.6%
Isuzu ....................2,401...........2,189.........9.7%........... 6,824...........6,416..........6.4%

Brand.................April '19......April '18............%.........YTD '19.........YTD '18.......% change  
Class 5 .........................16.................2..........700.0%..............24..................3.........700.0%
Class 6 ...................... 282..............205............37.6%............957...............829..........15.4%
Class 7 .......................546..............372............46.8%..........1,649............1,313..........25.6%
Class 8 ....................3,755...........2,983.............25.9%........11,955............9,684..........23.5%
Kenworth ..............4,599..........3,562............29.1%.......14,585.........11,829.........23.3%

Brand.....................April '19......April '18............%.............YTD '19.......YTD '18.......% change  
Mack Class 8 ............. 1,924...............1,182.......62.8%..............5,729..........4,972...........15.2%

Brand.........................April '19......April '18........%.............YTD '19.......YTD '18.......% change  
Class 3 & 4 ..........................–...............70.............–.....................–..............195.................–
Class 5 ................................–................16.............–.....................–...............39..................–
Mitsubishi Fuso................–................86...........–...................–..............234............. –

Brand.....................April '19.........April '18............%.............YTD '19.......YTD '18.......% change  
Class 5 .......................... –........................–................–.......................4................–..............–
Class 6 ...........................3.......................29............–89.7%............... 12...............56.........–78.6%
Class 7 ........................681.....................564..............20.7%.......... 2,334...........2,544..........–8.3%
Class 8 ......................3,842..................3,115.............23.3%.........12,743..........10,929..........16.6%
Peterbilt ..................4,526................3,708............22.1%........15,093........13,529.........11.6%

Brand..........................April '19......April '18......%.............YTD '19.......YTD '18.......% change   
Volvo Class 8 .......................2,199..........1,943 ...13.2%............7,943.........7,367.........7.8%

Brand...............................April '19......April '18......%.............YTD '19.......YTD '18.......% change   
Western Star Cl 8.....................558.............501....11.4%...........1,841..........1,700...........8.3%

 

Edited by jpd80

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Bob if that company trusts the Powerstrokes in the 550's, then why won't they give the mediums a chance?  Are those F-liners etc. new or been in service for a while?  Bluebird bus has been using the Ford tranny with the Roush propane conversion engine.  I wonder how the Ford powertrain is performing in the Pierce Saber fire trucks.

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7 hours ago, Joe771476 said:

Bob if that company trusts the Powerstrokes in the 550's, then why won't they give the mediums a chance?  Are those F-liners etc. new or been in service for a while?  Bluebird bus has been using the Ford tranny with the Roush propane conversion engine.  I wonder how the Ford powertrain is performing in the Pierce Saber fire trucks.

Joe,

My bet is the transmission (Torqueshift) is as much a problem for them as is the Power  Stroke.  Ford talks about how they "beefed" it up when it went from 6 to 10 speeds  -and in the same breath they say the weight increased by 3 pounds!  That sound like a lot of "beef"?

As for the 550, no doubt it has worked well.  I just have to think in spite of the extended warranty, these guys aren't willing to experiment vs. the Cummins/ Allison alternative. 

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2 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

Joe,

My bet is the transmission (Torqueshift) is as much a problem for them as is the Power  Stroke.  Ford talks about how they "beefed" it up when it went from 6 to 10 speeds  -and in the same breath they say the weight increased by 3 pounds!  That sound like a lot of "beef"?

As for the 550, no doubt it has worked well.  I just have to think in spite of the extended warranty, these guys aren't willing to experiment vs. the Cummins/ Allison alternative. 

6.7 PS and Torque Shift in Class 6 and 7 really is a stretch for most  fleet buyers used to the comfort level of Cummins/Allison in that segment,  if Ford offered say a 9 liter I-6 Duratorque and Allison Transmission, maybe they would stand a chance. Literally thousands of sales going begging each month because Ford won't even try something different...or should that be "similar to other manufacturers"?

Edited by jpd80

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4 hours ago, jpd80 said:

6.7 PS and Torque Shift in Class 6 and 7 really is a stretch for most  fleet buyers used to the comfort level of Cummins/Allison in that segment,  if Ford offered say a 9 liter I-6 Duratorque and Allison Transmission, maybe they would stand a chance. Literally thousands of sales going begging each month because Ford won't even try something different...or should that be "similar to other manufacturers"?

IMO you are right on.  The naysayers will disagree but I say the utilities had no trouble buying 750's before in the Bluediamond era -and before-when a Cat or Cummins/ Allison was available.  virtually same truck today being built at OAP with exception of the power train options-or lack of same.

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Well no doubt these guys are serious-we will see how well they do with their move into the EU market;

 

Ford Trucks Russia Press Release  /  May 24, 2019

Производство нового тягача F-MAX на технологичном заводе Ford!

Седельные тягачи #FORD #FMAX обладатели титула #ITOY производятся на современном заводе в турецком городе Иноню.

 

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I guess the F-Max is only a tractor.  Anyway, when it comes to Ford pride, you see it in this video and there's a ton of these on youtube.  You don't see it here in the USA.  If there was, there'd be a Ford class 8 category.  Freightliner (Daimler/Mercedes) and International (VW/Scania) would be in big trouble!   I think Ford is being nice.  Maybe they can design a class 8 truck, then have Daimler and/or VW buy/steal it away again!  I hope Ford gets at least $3 billion this time instead of $300 million!!!!

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1 hour ago, twintornados said:

Has anyone heard the output numbers for the new 7.3L gas motor?

Not yet. Been pretty quiet since they announced it. 

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Yeah, been wondering about that.  The GM 6.6L gas was revealed the same day, and they were not shy about stating it's output.   

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March sales for Ford class 6 & 7 are still kicking Hino's butt in both classes.  I haven't seen the latest figures.

Edited by Joe771476

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Well for sure I have posted my share of negativity about the failure of Ford to offer a transmission in class 6 and 7 beyond the Torqueshift.

Well read the attached from HDT.  The great ZF!  and look at the weight of this transmission that is clearly pitched as a class6-7-baby 8.  And note the reference to applications in PV's....15 million in use since 2007.  328 pounds.  Does anyone know what weight of new "beefed up" 10 speed Torqueshift is?

 

 

Jim Park, Heavy Duty Trucking (HDT)  /  June 20, 2019

Medium-duty truck builders will soon have a groundbreaking new transmission to add to their data books, and heavy-truck makers will have more steering assist options to offer customers. German automotive supplier, ZF Friedrichschafen AG, recently demonstrated these and other nearly-market-ready technologies at press gathering at the Transportation Research Center near East Liberty, Ohio.

The PowerLine 8HP torque-convertor automatic transmission is the big news here. It's hardly new though. It was officially introduced to the North American market exactly one year ago in Indianapolis. But more than 15 million copies of this transmission have been operating in passenger cars (fitted with the scaled-down 8AP version) across Europe and Asia since 2007. The 8HP is a "muscled-up" version of that same platform. ZF changed little in scaling it up for service in Class 3 to baby 8s save for building in some extra durability.

ZF says the transmission should be on the road next year but wouldn't say which of the major truck makers would be first to market with the PowerLine 8.

ZF did say, however, that this 8-speed will cover all of Allison's 1000, 2000 Series automatic transmissions and a good chunk of its 3000 Series transmissions. "With one product, we cover about 90% of our competitor's volume," said Andre Kohl, ZF's North American business development manager.

It boasts some impressive specs and features, but performance will likely be its biggest selling feature. Reporters had the chance to drive two trucks equipped with the PowerLine 8, and one "baseline" truck for comparative purposes. It's impressive.

Starting out, it will launch in first or second gear, depending on the load, and it will skip-shift when the opportunity presents itself. It has a neutral idle feature that disengages the torque convertor to take the load off the engine when the truck isn't moving. Gear ratios range from 4.89 in first to 0.64 in eighth, which is like double or maybe triple overdrive. There's plenty of latitude in the eight cogs for any driving condition, and ZF did say that fuel economy was a prime driver in the engineering process.

"The PowerLine is at least — not up to — at least 10% better on fuel than any competitive product in same application," said Kohl.

The transmission boasts 30% better acceleration than other transmission and a 45% weight advantage -- the PowerLine 8 weighs a paltry 328 pounds.

Kohl also pointed out that the transmission, as it sits today, is ready for what the OEMs will be asking for in terms of meeting the pending GHG Phase II regs. It's ready for integrated stop/start assist which shuts off and starts the engine while at traffic lights, etc. "We incorporate an accumulator inside the transmission to help with restarting," he said. "This will help truck makers comply with GHG reduction rules in the future with engine stop/start technologies. When they are ready for it, we already are."

It also features twin torsional dampers, which will help with downsped powertrains. These are more common to on-highway Class 8s, but Kohl says downspeeding is coming to medium-duty. There's also a lock-up clutch in first gear for improved energy efficiency. With the PowerLine 8, the torque convertor is used only to launch and stop the truck.

Driving the PowerLine 8 proved pretty well everything Kohl said during his presentation. You literally cannot feel the transmission shifting gears. You can tell the shifts are happening based on the sound of the engine, but they are very quick and really smooth, and there's never a lag in torque as you accelerate.

There's a short off-road loop at TRC that features a hill with a 23% grade. One of the trucks was loaded with 20,000 pounds of steel dunnage for a gross weight of about 37,000 pounds. The truck walked up that grade from a full stop at the bottom, and from a full stop mid-way up the hill (the hill-start assist feature came in handy that time). It even managed an upshift from first to second on one of my runs up the hill with full throttle applied right from the start. 

On the maintenance side you get “best in class” extended oil-change intervals and Kohl said the oil filter is good “for life”. It also features a fully integrated control units inside the casing, with no external sensors or harnesses. That should help with durability.

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Ford Medium and Heavy Truck sales May

Truck..................May'19.......May '18.....change......5MO '19......5 MO '18.....Change

Class 4..............2,228............2,587.........-13.9%.......11,339........14,586.........-22.3%

Class 5..............4,761............4,610............3.5%........22,108........21,157...........4.5%

Class 6..............2,556............1,962..........30.3%.......10,060...........8,063..........24.8%

Class 7................140...............130.............7.7%............896..............634..........41.3%

Class 8..................22....................9............144%..............54.................49.........10.2%

Total................9,707.............9,289.............4.5%........44,457........44,489...........-0.1%

F Series.........84,355...........84,639...........-0.3%.......368,972.......371,934...........-0.8%

Class 2 & 3....74,648...........75,350..........-0.1%.......324,515........327,445...........-0.1%

My estimation May F150 ~54K,  F250 ~18K, F350 ~9K

( Split is usually 2/3 F150 to 1/3 SD,  F350 is usually 1/2 of F250, and then Cls 6, 7 & 8 MDs are separate to SDs.)

 

Edited by jpd80

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6 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

Well for sure I have posted my share of negativity about the failure of Ford to offer a transmission in class 6 and 7 beyond the Torqueshift.

Well read the attached from HDT.  The great ZF!  and look at the weight of this transmission that is clearly pitched as a class6-7-baby 8.  And note the reference to applications in PV's....15 million in use since 2007.  328 pounds.  Does anyone know what weight of new "beefed up" 10 speed Torqueshift is?

Bob, follow my logic,

6R80 is 215 lbs...10R80 is 235 lbs,  6R140 is 325 lbs W/O fluid  approx equal to Allison 6AT 3,000

....therefore a good guess would be 10R140 at approx the weight of Allison 6AT 3,000 and new ZF 8AP

Also, I see Allison is about to offer 9AT in 2000 series this year so maybe an 8 or 9 speed 3000 isn't far away?

 

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5 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Bob, follow my logic,

6R80 is 215 lbs...10R80 is 235 lbs,  6R140 is 325 lbs W/O fluid  approx equal to Allison 6AT 3,000

....therefore a good guess would be 10R140 at approx the weight of Allison 6AT 3,000 and new ZF 8AP

Also, I see Allison is about to offer 9AT in 2000 series this year so maybe an 8 or 9 speed 3000 isn't far away?

 

JP-Hope you are correct-but I've been on Allison site and as I read it, the 3000 series weighs in at like 585 pds.  The 2000 series is I think 325?   But also when I look at torque ratings of the 2000 series, I can't believe that you can put these with the torque the Duramax/Cummins 6.7/PowerStroke put out

Hope I'm reading this wrong.  then again, if ZF has had such good luck with this lightweight unit, and THEY are going to use it in class 7 and baby 8, then I guess engineering trumps dead weight😎

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