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On 9/19/2020 at 5:05 PM, jpd80 said:

I believe that the only reason that Ford is still selling F650/F750 at all is because someone with influence

convinced the heads that bring them in-house  would make them profitable. I don't see Ford interested

beyond low cost upgrades that add easy sales.

I don't see that as being any different than any other manufacturing company !

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29 minutes ago, ausrutherford said:

So it has been what, 1 1/2 years since the Chevy Class 4, 5, and 6 trucks launched.

 

I have still yet to see 1 of them on the road. Yet, I see new F-650 and 750's all over the place. 

Well their competition is F-450, 550, the new 600 and 650 at its lower  GVW.  the 6500 Chevy/International has a max of 22,000 (or 22.5?) vs 26,000 for 650

But your point is valid.  With two brands (CHevy  and Navistar selling the same truck ) I agree -based on observations you don't see a lot.  And as I've continue to report on my "recon" trips to a local Altech facility that does a ton of bucket lift installs, since the "twins" came out I saw two Chevies on their lot.  Fords? As many as 50 plus.  I think most of these trucks are for the cable companies and Verizon.  the electric companies seem to be sticking with class 7 and 8's

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The Chevy/International medium duty truck sales have been held back by the long GM strike and the whole Covid mess.  I personally have seen few new medium duty trucks period this year.  Ford F-650's and 750's are around, but most I see are a few years old.  I have yet to see one with the 7.3L gasoline engine.  For 2020 our fleet bought a lot of Freightliner M2-112's and a few Chevy 6500's and Isuzu NRR's.          

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I've recently started seeing UPS box trucks with F-650/750 cabs. They're completely "browned out," with even the Blue Oval on the grille obscured, and appear to be debadged, so I couldn't see anything to give away what mills they're running. 
 

It's weird--my office is almost within shouting distance of the UPS depot, so I see lots of UPS and Amazon trucks, but I don't recall seeing any brown box trucks before last week.

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17 minutes ago, SoonerLS said:

I've recently started seeing UPS box trucks with F-650/750 cabs. They're completely "browned out," with even the Blue Oval on the grille obscured, and appear to be debadged, so I couldn't see anything to give away what mills they're running. 
 

It's weird--my office is almost within shouting distance of the UPS depot, so I see lots of UPS and Amazon trucks, but I don't recall seeing any brown box trucks before last week.

UPS has had OAP 650's for quite a while now.

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I don't think a Chinese knockoff of an Isuzu would be all that great, even if Ford assembled it.  I was hoping for a U.S. version of the Brazilian medium duty Cargo, but that ship sailed.  Tough to go up against Isuzu and Hino, they blew Fuso and UD right out of the North American market.

 

BTW- hearing rumors Chevy may introduce a class 7 version of their Isuzu supplied LCF in 2021.  

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On 9/23/2020 at 9:23 PM, SoonerLS said:

I've recently started seeing UPS box trucks with F-650/750 cabs. They're completely "browned out," with even the Blue Oval on the grille obscured, and appear to be debadged, so I couldn't see anything to give away what mills they're running. 
 

It's weird--my office is almost within shouting distance of the UPS depot, so I see lots of UPS and Amazon trucks, but I don't recall seeing any brown box trucks before last week.

I drive past the "back side" of a major UPS Depot (short cut to a shopping center).  I have NEVER seen a "brown" box truck.  It does amaze me how many different brands of tractors they use.

We have an Amazon distribution center within 10 miles.  Lots of Amazon deliver vans were out last Christmas and lots of rentals.  I expect more this season.

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Ford Europe debuted a 5-tonne Transit yesterday. Is that comparable to one that already exists here?

 

The difference between ton and tonne...and the Euro class differences confuse me.

 

https://www.at.ford.com/content/atford/fna/united-states/en/homepage/news-and-clipsheet/news/2020/9/ford-announces-its-strongest--most-capable-transit-ever.html

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4 hours ago, ausrutherford said:

Ford Europe debuted a 5-tonne Transit yesterday. Is that comparable to one that already exists here?

 

The difference between ton and tonne...and the Euro class differences confuse me.

 

https://www.at.ford.com/content/atford/fna/united-states/en/homepage/news-and-clipsheet/news/2020/9/ford-announces-its-strongest--most-capable-transit-ever.html

 

Looks like the 5 Tonne has a higher payload, 5253 lbs. to the T-350's 4550 lbs., comparing diesel cargo vans.  GVW is 11023 lbs. vs. 10360 lbs..  

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1 hour ago, edselford said:

 

Does anyone know what a 6.X liter or a 6.8 liter new engine at the ford Windsor engine plant is?

I assume it would be a derivative of the 7.3 V8 ? I could see this for an F250?

I would think it'd have to be a Godzilla offspring. I don't think it would make any sense to upsize the 6.2, or they would've done it already for the Super Duties. The 6.2 is pretty much an orphan and the 7.3 is the future in the Super Duty line, so it only makes sense for them to unify on that engine family.

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On 10/3/2020 at 3:09 PM, 7Mary3 said:

 

Looks like the 5 Tonne has a higher payload, 5253 lbs. to the T-350's 4550 lbs., comparing diesel cargo vans.  GVW is 11023 lbs. vs. 10360 lbs..  

Powered by ~170 hp 2.0 diesel, single turbo variant with around 300 lb ft.

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On 10/2/2020 at 5:49 PM, ausrutherford said:

Ford Europe debuted a 5-tonne Transit yesterday. Is that comparable to one that already exists here?

 

The difference between ton and tonne...and the Euro class differences confuse me.

 

https://www.at.ford.com/content/atford/fna/united-states/en/homepage/news-and-clipsheet/news/2020/9/ford-announces-its-strongest--most-capable-transit-ever.html

 

5 tonnes means GVWR on these Transit is 5,000kg so that is 11,000 lbs. 

 

That's an meaningful increase over the US spec Transit 350 HD's 10,360 lbs. 

 

I'm guessing the US model will get a GVWR boost too at some point. The relative conservatives GVWR of Transit 350 HD has so far been holding it back as uplifters still prefer to use E350 DRW which has 11,500-12,500 lbs GVWR. 

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On 10/3/2020 at 8:05 PM, edselford said:

 

Does anyone know what a 6.X liter or a 6.8 liter new engine at the ford Windsor engine plant is?

I assume it would be a derivative of the 7.3 V8 ? I could see this for an F250?

edselford

 

 

Interested in details as well.  I would think the new engine would be a replacement for the 6.2L, but if it actually is 6.8L I see no point to it at all.

 

Knowing Ford it's probably an all new platform designed to replace both the 7.3L and 6.2L! 

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Speaking of Hino............

 

Hino Trucks And Toyota Jointly Develop Class 8 Fuel Cell Electric Truck For North America

Hydrogen-Powered Truck Will Offer Heavy-Duty Capability and Clean Emissions


NEWS PROVIDED BY

Hino Trucks 

Oct 05, 2020, 14:30 ET

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NOVI, Mich., Oct. 5, 2020 /PRNewswire/ -- With the rapidly expanding interest in heavy-duty electric trucks, Hino Trucks and Toyota Motor North America (TMNA) have agreed to jointly develop a Class 8 fuel cell electric truck (FCET) for the North American market.  

The companies will leverage the newly developed Hino XL Series chassis with Toyota's proven fuel cell technology to deliver exceptional capability without harmful emissions. This collaboration expands upon the existing effort to develop a 25-ton FCET for the Japanese market which was announced earlier this year.  

Fuel_Cell_XL_Series__2.jpg?p=publish&w=9
Hino Trucks and Toyota jointly develop Class 8 fuel cell electric truck for North America. Hydrogen-powered truck will offer heavy-duty capability and clean emissions.
 

"A fuel cell powered version of the Hino XL Series is a win-win for both customers and the community. It will be quiet, smooth and powerful while emitting nothing but water," said Tak Yokoo, Senior Executive Engineer, Toyota Research and Development. "Toyota's twenty plus years of fuel cell technology combined with Hino's heavy-duty truck experience will create an innovative and capable product."  

"Expanding upon our proud heritage of the Hino powertrain, Toyota Fuel Cell Technology offers our customers a commercially viable, extended range, zero emissions vehicle in the near term," said Glenn Ellis, Hino's Senior Vice President - Customer Experience. "Hino shares a common focus with Toyota when it comes to durability, reliability, and innovation with the customer at the center of design which makes this collaboration a game changer."

About Hino Trucks:
Hino Trucks, a Toyota Group Company, manufactures, sells, and services a lineup of Class 4-8 commercial trucks in the United States. Hino Trucks is the premier heavy & medium duty nameplate in the United States with a product lineup that offers fully connected vehicles with low total cost of ownership, superior fuel economy, unmatched reliability and maneuverability and the most comprehensive bundle of standard features in the market. Headquartered in Novi, Michigan, Hino has a network of over 240 dealers nationwide committed to achieving excellence in the ultimate ownership experience.  Learn more about Hino Trucks at http://www.hino.com or follow us on Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter and YouTube.

About Toyota: Toyota (NYSE:TM) has been a part of the cultural fabric in the U.S. and North America for more than 60 years, and is committed to advancing sustainable, next-generation mobility through our Toyota and Lexus brands. During that time, Toyota has created a tremendous value chain as our teams have contributed to world-class design, engineering, and assembly of more than 40 million cars and trucks in North America, where we have 14 manufacturing plants, 15 including our joint venture in Alabama (10 in the U.S.), and directly employ more than 47,000 people (over 36,000 in the U.S.). Our 1,800 North American dealerships (nearly 1,500 in the U.S.) sold nearly 2.8 million cars and trucks (nearly 2.4 million in the U.S.) in 2019.

Through the Start Your Impossible campaign, Toyota highlights the way it partners with community, civic, academic and governmental organizations to address our society's most pressing mobility challenges. We believe that when people are free to move, anything is possible. For more information about Toyota, visit www.toyotanewsroom.com.

SOURCE Hino Trucks

rt.gif?NewsItemId=DE48317&Transmission_I
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16 minutes ago, Bob Rosadini said:

Speaking of Hino............

 

Hino Trucks And Toyota Jointly Develop Class 8 Fuel Cell Electric Truck For North America

Hydrogen-Powered Truck Will Offer Heavy-Duty Capability and Clean Emissions


NEWS PROVIDED BY

Hino Trucks 

Oct 05, 2020, 14:30 ET


NOVI, Mich., Oct. 5, 2020 /PRNewswire/ -- With the rapidly expanding interest in heavy-duty electric trucks, Hino Trucks and Toyota Motor North America (TMNA) have agreed to jointly develop a Class 8 fuel cell electric truck (FCET) for the North American market.  

The companies will leverage the newly developed Hino XL Series chassis with Toyota's proven fuel cell technology to deliver exceptional capability without harmful emissions. This collaboration expands upon the existing effort to develop a 25-ton FCET for the Japanese market which was announced earlier this year.  

Fuel_Cell_XL_Series__2.jpg?p=publish&w=9
Hino Trucks and Toyota jointly develop Class 8 fuel cell electric truck for North America. Hydrogen-powered truck will offer heavy-duty capability and clean emissions.
 

"A fuel cell powered version of the Hino XL Series is a win-win for both customers and the community. It will be quiet, smooth and powerful while emitting nothing but water," said Tak Yokoo, Senior Executive Engineer, Toyota Research and Development. "Toyota's twenty plus years of fuel cell technology combined with Hino's heavy-duty truck experience will create an innovative and capable product."  

"Expanding upon our proud heritage of the Hino powertrain, Toyota Fuel Cell Technology offers our customers a commercially viable, extended range, zero emissions vehicle in the near term," said Glenn Ellis, Hino's Senior Vice President - Customer Experience. "Hino shares a common focus with Toyota when it comes to durability, reliability, and innovation with the customer at the center of design which makes this collaboration a game changer."

About Hino Trucks:
Hino Trucks, a Toyota Group Company, manufactures, sells, and services a lineup of Class 4-8 commercial trucks in the United States. Hino Trucks is the premier heavy & medium duty nameplate in the United States with a product lineup that offers fully connected vehicles with low total cost of ownership, superior fuel economy, unmatched reliability and maneuverability and the most comprehensive bundle of standard features in the market. Headquartered in Novi, Michigan, Hino has a network of over 240 dealers nationwide committed to achieving excellence in the ultimate ownership experience.  Learn more about Hino Trucks at http://www.hino.com or follow us on Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter and YouTube.

About Toyota: Toyota (NYSE:TM) has been a part of the cultural fabric in the U.S. and North America for more than 60 years, and is committed to advancing sustainable, next-generation mobility through our Toyota and Lexus brands. During that time, Toyota has created a tremendous value chain as our teams have contributed to world-class design, engineering, and assembly of more than 40 million cars and trucks in North America, where we have 14 manufacturing plants, 15 including our joint venture in Alabama (10 in the U.S.), and directly employ more than 47,000 people (over 36,000 in the U.S.). Our 1,800 North American dealerships (nearly 1,500 in the U.S.) sold nearly 2.8 million cars and trucks (nearly 2.4 million in the U.S.) in 2019.

Through the Start Your Impossible campaign, Toyota highlights the way it partners with community, civic, academic and governmental organizations to address our society's most pressing mobility challenges. We believe that when people are free to move, anything is possible. For more information about Toyota, visit www.toyotanewsroom.com.

SOURCE Hino Trucks

rt.gif?NewsItemId=DE48317&Transmission_I

 

 

From the Mach E thread:



As for fuel cells, the reality is the only efficient source of hydrogen now is to make it from natural gas. So you are not reducing the reliance on fossil fuel. It doesn't do anything to combat climate change. Until we figure out nuclear fusion, this is not going to change. Chemistry and fundamental physics cannot be changed. So once you understand this limitation, you can see that instead of making hydrogen from natural gas, you are better off just burning the natural gas (at a power plant for example). It's far more efficient use of that gas. On top of basic chemistry, we also have an infrastructure problem. Hydrogen requires all new fueling and transportation networks that no one wants to pay for. You cannot use existing oil and gas pipeline and tankers and to keep hydrogen in a liquid form, requires refrigeration from end to end, which use up huge amounts of electricity and space. The more you think about it, the more crazy it gets. It's really strange that there are still people out there thinking this is a feasible mass scale solution to our transportation needs in the 2nd half of 21st century.

 

 

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Hydrogen fuel cell will have a future in a localized setting, especially in places where combating smog forming emission is the top priority (e.g. cargo port or industrial park).

 

It doesn't have a future in long distance road transport, primarily as I mentioned in the Mach E thread, the chemistry doesn't make sense. It is a net loss in energy... the energy output is less than the input required to produce it. What made fossil fuel great (despite poor thermal efficiency) is that the energy output is far greater than the input required to extract, refine, and transport it. Hydrogen is the exact opposite. 

 

Until we have an abundant source of carbon free electricity (from nuclear fusion), making hydrogen to power vehicles just doesn't make any sense on a national or global scale. Even if you make hydrogen from water using solar power, you are still left with the problem that it is more efficient to use that solar power to power the vehicles directly.

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