New Light & Medium Duty News

[7Mary3]

12 hours ago, twintornados said:

Always remember, Jac "The Knife" Nasser sold off the Heavy Truck division not because it was losing money (it wasn't)...just that it was not making enough money to satisfy his desire to dominate the market. He said (paraphrasing) "I can make more money if I put the $$ spent on class 8 in a bank and let it draw interest."

 

Ford's heavy truck operation was just barely profitable.  The HN80 program (new generation heavy truck) was over budget and late to market, and I suspect that had Ford stayed in the market past 1997 they would have wound up solidly in the red on heavy trucks.  Remember that Freightliner spent a LOT of money on the 'Sterlings' (HN80's), and that wasn't just to move production up to Canada.  Freightliner made significant improvements to the trucks and put a lot of marketing and product support behind them, much more that Ford would have ever committed to.  Nonetheless, Sterling was gone by 2009.  If Freightliner couldn't make the HN80 profitable, no way would Ford have ever been successful with it.

 

In retrospect, Ford should have exited the heavy truck business sometime in the late 80's while the old Louisville was still selling strong and before they spent any money on HN80.  I'll wager Freightliner would have still paid good money for Ford's heavy truck dealer network and the parts business.

 

I was looking back over some of the headlines from 1997 and while the actual price Freightliner paid for Ford's heavy truck operation was not disclosed, it was estimated to be @ $200 million.  For comparison, 3 years later Freightliner bought Western Star out for $670 million for the outstanding shares plus paid off Western Star's outstanding debt for a total transaction of nearly $1 billion.  Freightliner has done well with Western Star as it extended them into the heavy haul and premium on-road markets. 

Edited August 27, 2025 by 7Mary3

[Joe771476]

I've mentioned most of this years ago in here, but I used to read my customer's Automotive News magazine and in the 80's into 90's Ford heavy truck was right up there with International and Freightliner. I know that Ford was often in at least second place in sales at some points in time. So they redesigned it in 1996/1997 and according to a story, Freightliner knew Ford could be a problem, so they went to Ford and bought -- er STOLE -- it for $300 million. I'm quite sure the deal said Freightliner had to keep it for 10 years. Did you notice that the S for Sterling was kept in an oval?! In the beginning, Ford DNA was still in the early Sterlings, but eventually I believe the cab was simply mounted on a Freightliner chassis. Again like I mentioned many years ago, when the CTDOT and the MDC water agency in CT (that's just two examples) found out they couldn't get class 8 Fords anymore, it opened up their eyes to other brands in other classes and categories. The MDC garage used to be full of Fords -- and only Fords --  for years.  They even had Ford payloaders and backhoes! Now over the years it's a collection of various Ford, GM, Dodge class 1 thru 5 trucks and cars. Heavies became IHC or Freightliners. So I believe Ford LOST out on the deal!  Big time! Same is true of the CTDOT. After a hiatus of 20 years, the CTDOT just recently bought a bunch of F750 dumps/plow/salters, and I THINK they're Powerstrokes. I'm still working on that info Bob R!! And $670 million for low volume Western Star was ridiculous when they only paid $300 million for much higher volume Fords.

[7Mary3]

In all fairness, the Western Star deal included their plant in Kelowna B.C. and Orion Bus with their plants in Ontario and New York.  That accounts at least in part for the much higher price.  

 

I think it's inaccurate to say that Freightliner (or rather DTNA) approached and somehow coerced Ford into selling their heavy truck operation for pennies.  Ford very clearly wanted out of the heavy truck business for two primary reasons, first low profits, and second, they wanted to convert KTP to exclusive production of the upcoming Super Duty line of light trucks.  I was told at the time this was all happening Ford was very close to including all medium duty trucks in the deal (they were built at KTP as well), but made a last-minute decision to keep the F series medium duty in production in Escobedo Mexico.  The Freightliner deal did include the Cargo series medium duty trucks.  

 

The Acterra line used the former Ford cab on a Freightliner chassis, and later versions of the Cargo were built on Freightliner FL 60/70 chassis.  The Acterra was a close approximation to the HN80 medium duty F series replacement Ford was planning for sometime around 1999.   

 

Ford didn't break out class 8 sales from class 6 and 7 sales back in those days, but by 1996 Ford's class 8 share by itself was very small and shrinking.  Ford's strength was in medium duty and class 7 vocational.  Freightliner was primarily after those vocational class 7 sales as they were weak in that specific area.  Freightliner also wanted the dealer network and the Ford parts business was icing on the cake.  The one part of the deal Freightliner was perhaps less excited about was Ford's over-the-road class 8 business, as that was a market Freightliner was particularly strong in.  In fact, Ford had shown a prototype HN80 long-nose forward axle OTR conventional model was to have replaced the Louisville LTL as Ford's flagship heavy truck, but Freightliner dropped the program and focused Sterling on vocational and fleet truck sales.

 

To this day I have wondered what happened to the 2 long nose HN80 prototypes that were built.  There were pictures of one of them taken at a commercial truck show in late 1996.   

Edited August 30, 2025 by 7Mary3

[twintornados]

2 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

In all fairness, the Western Star deal included their plant in Kelowna B.C. and Orion Bus with their plants in Ontario and New York.  That accounts at least in part for the much higher price.  

 

Orion Bus was built at the old Oneida County airport. Locally to me and I had lots of friends that worked there. It was located there so that Western Star could take advantage of "NYS built" incentives but as usual, that all dried up with new administrations and of course, the plant was closed.

[7Mary3]

2 hours ago, twintornados said:

 

Orion Bus was built at the old Oneida County airport. Locally to me and I had lots of friends that worked there. It was located there so that Western Star could take advantage of "NYS built" incentives but as usual, that all dried up with new administrations and of course, the plant was closed.

 

That's exactly right.  Orion was a Canadian company but opened their NY plant to get the incentives.  Nova Bus opened a plant in Plattsburgh for the same reason. 

[lfeg]

Driving through Pittsburgh yesterday, I saw something right out of the past - a Ford LCF. Those are few and far between.

 

[twintornados]

7 minutes ago, lfeg said:

Driving through Pittsburgh yesterday, I saw something right out of the past - a Ford LCF. Those are few and far between.

 

 

They should have put the I-5 3.2L Duratorq in it and called it a day....would have been a popular choice for sure.

[Bob Rosadini]

4 hours ago, lfeg said:

Driving through Pittsburgh yesterday, I saw something right out of the past - a Ford LCF. Those are few and far between.

 

A Cargo??

[7Mary3]

4 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

A Cargo??

 

No, I think he's talking about the class 3-4 LCF that had a tiny Mazda cab and an engine I would rather not talk about.

[Sherminator98]

5 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

 

No, I think he's talking about the class 3-4 LCF that had a tiny Mazda cab and an engine I would rather not talk about.

yeah wasn't that engine the really bad powerstroke from the era with 2 or 4 less cylinders? 

[fordmantpw]

49 minutes ago, Sherminator98 said:

yeah wasn't that engine the really bad powerstroke from the era with 2 or 4 less cylinders? 

 

Yep, 4.5L V6.  Thank goodness that thing never made it to the F150 like the original plan.  That would have been a disaster!

[rmc523]

11 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

A Cargo??

 

[Joe771476]

3 hours ago, rmc523 said:

 

That's the Ford/IHC LCF joint venture that failed.  I'm quite sure NYC used the Cargo for rescue and as a tiller ladder tractor.

[twintornados]

44 minutes ago, Joe771476 said:

That's the Ford/IHC LCF joint venture that failed.  I'm quite sure NYC used the Cargo for rescue and as a tiller ladder tractor.

 

It likely would've done much better with ANY other motor in the FoMoCo truck lineup rather than the POS International built V6 that was just a 6.0L Powerstroke with two cylinders lopped off. 

[Bob Rosadini]

11 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

 

No, I think he's talking about the class 3-4 LCF that had a tiny Mazda cab and an engine I would rather not talk about.

ah thx-forgot about that...what could be worse than a 6.4?  One with 6 cyl🤔

[Bob Rosadini]

Back to today's medium duty, just saw lousy August numbers-thx Antus-all various..but on my way to my Ford dealer (post relative to that to follow🤯) I saw like 4 750/650's in a short drive.  One was a new by its clean appearance National Grid the others were flatbeds with various loads all corporate id's.

Odd..4 on a short drive and on my many 100+ mile trips on 495 I'm lucky to  see 1 or 2..usually UPS.

[7Mary3]

2 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

Back to today's medium duty, just saw lousy August numbers...

 

Wow, you are not kidding.  The 650 and 750 now account for less than 1% of all Ford truck sales.

[Joe771476]

4 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

 

Wow, you are not kidding.  The 650 and 750 now account for less than 1% of all Ford truck sales.

I know lots of landscapers, tree cutting companies and several other vocational operations that own Class 7, Class 6 and Class 1 thru 5 Fords. I dare Ford to drop the mediums. Then they can watch their class 1 thru 5 sales tank.

[lfeg]

On 9/3/2025 at 8:56 AM, rmc523 said:

 

That is it, only the one I saw was red.

 

[7Mary3]

On 9/3/2025 at 4:27 PM, Joe771476 said:

I know lots of landscapers, tree cutting companies and several other vocational operations that own Class 7, Class 6 and Class 1 thru 5 Fords. I dare Ford to drop the mediums. Then they can watch their class 1 thru 5 sales tank.

 

I don't think so.  Let's assume I was a buyer for a fleet that purchased Ford trucks from F-150's up through F-750's.  If Ford were to drop the 650 and 750 models, I would likely turn to International, Mack, or Freightliner for class 6 and 7 medium duty trucks.  Remember those companies don't manufacture class 1 through 5 trucks, so in all likelyhood I would stay with Ford for the lighter models.  If the fleet was hell-bent on having one make of truck on the property I guess they could go to Chevy, but their biggest medium duty conventional is the Silverado 6500 which is the equivalent of the Super Duty F-600.  Chevy dealers do sell their version of the Cummins powered Isuzu FTR/FVR as the LCF 6500/7500.  That's a very good medium duty truck but it is expensive.

 

Remember Ram does very well and they don't offer anything bigger than the Ram 5500.  In fact, Ram usually beats Ford in class 4 and 5 commercial truck sales.

 

My understanding is Ford has committed to the UAW to keep the medium duty line open at Avon Lake until April of 2028.  

[twintornados]

10 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

 

I don't think so.  Let's assume I was a buyer for a fleet that purchased Ford trucks from F-150's up through F-750's.  If Ford were to drop the 650 and 750 models, I would likely turn to International, Mack, or Freightliner for class 6 and 7 medium duty trucks.  Remember those companies don't manufacture class 1 through 5 trucks, so in all likelyhood I would stay with Ford for the lighter models.  If the fleet was hell-bent on having one make of truck on the property I guess they could go to Chevy, but their biggest medium duty conventional is the Silverado 6500 which is the equivalent of the Super Duty F-600.  Chevy dealers do sell their version of the Cummins powered Isuzu FTR/FVR as the LCF 6500/7500.  That's a very good medium duty truck but it is expensive.

 

Remember Ram does very well and they don't offer anything bigger than the Ram 5500.  In fact, Ram usually beats Ford in class 4 and 5 commercial truck sales.

 

My understanding is Ford has committed to the UAW to keep the medium duty line open at Avon Lake until April of 2028.  

 

What is needed is to figure out if Ford is making a profit higher than 4-5% on Mediums...if not, the axe will swing and Avon Lake produced Mediums will drive into the history books get parked next to Class 8 tractors...I believe that they do generate more profit even at lower sales due to all the use of existing hardware....but could a refresh to a "new style" aluminum cab be in the offing to increase the profit on a relatively small scale production wise? I don't believe it would take too much to do and producing one cab style as opposed to one from steel and one from aluminum for the other chassis cabs that are also built there should give you a savings and resultant increase in margin that the shareholders crave. 

[Bob Rosadini]

5 hours ago, twintornados said:

 

What is needed is to figure out if Ford is making a profit higher than 4-5% on Mediums...if not, the axe will swing and Avon Lake produced Mediums will drive into the history books get parked next to Class 8 tractors...I believe that they do generate more profit even at lower sales due to all the use of existing hardware....but could a refresh to a "new style" aluminum cab be in the offing to increase the profit on a relatively small scale production wise? I don't believe it would take too much to do and producing one cab style as opposed to one from steel and one from aluminum for the other chassis cabs that are also built there should give you a savings and resultant increase in margin that the shareholders crave. 

Seems too obvious doesn't it? No flames please,  but as I've said many times, think of the incremental sales lost because they offer BS excuses why they can't offer air brakes on 650/750 gas models.

A lot of class 6 and 7 operators run a business where their trucks are used in support of their primary business.  Without them they would be forced  to hire someone for that support and or suffer the disruption to their business while waiting for that outside support.  And a key point, they are more likely to buy that truck when the up front price is some $12,000 less then a diesel.

 

Oh side note...Hino was supposedly going to offer class 8 trucks then every thing was apparently derailed when they had their compliance issues.  While I have not seen any news that says they are back on schedule with that, apparently they are as one of the "ad rags" I get shows one of those "class 6/7" Hinos for sale with about a 15 yd dump body and 46,000 lb. rears!

[fordmantpw]

Check out the new Nexus Maximus RV line: Linky

 

It's the first Super C RV I've seen based on the F650 chassis.  I just mentioned a couple weeks ago on here how I'd like to see that happen, and here it is.  Hope for the MD line at Ford?

[twintornados]

30 minutes ago, fordmantpw said:

Check out the new Nexus Maximus RV line: Linky

 

It's the first Super C RV I've seen based on the F650 chassis.  I just mentioned a couple weeks ago on here how I'd like to see that happen, and here it is.  Hope for the MD line at Ford?

 

That looks sharp for sure...

[fordmantpw]

Would love to see the cab, especially the interior, updated to the standards of the 2023+ trucks.  I mean, the interior of these trucks dates back to 2008 I believe.  Rather old and outdated.