Bob Rosadini Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 8 hours ago, fordmantpw said: Ford is currently the ONLY automaker to have offerings in class 1-7, so they are the only ones serving that entire market. So, let's say it's a mistake to not prioritize classes 6 & 7. Let's make an assumption that they could invest $100M into those classes and get a return of $150M. Or, they could pick option 2 and invest $100M into classes 2-5 and get a return of $250M. Which is the better option? What would you choose? Huh? I'll do you one better. Invest in option 3 and invest in cheaper options in classes2-5 that get a return of 300M....yeah I would go for that hypothetical🤪 Again, I'm not talking about building an F1 program... or getting back in class 8..I'm talking about minor changes -like an Allison for the non believers in the toughness of the in-house trans, or getting a Cummins option and price it accordingly..let the buyer decide if its worth it. Look at the 650/750 guides for the last two years and what do they show??? Additions to options?..No deletions!..Sooner or later they will have built a case..." yep or sales are a fraction of what they were..time to get out. Oh and as the great success GM is having with their rebadged Isuzus?... I guess Isuzu can make a buck on the sale to GM and GM can make a buck on their sale to the end user??? And Ford can't make a buck with no middleman? By the way, Same with Navistar building the same truck that is sold as a Chevy or an International? Yeah, I know a real winner... "economy of scale'. Surprised they didn't broaden that appeal by Including.."The Truck People from GMC" as they used to say. Talk about dumb move IMO. By the way, the bi weekly truck rag that covers New England lists plenty of new Chevy and International class 6's...most them '24's. Fire away... have my helmet and flak jacket on😎 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GearheadGrrrl Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 Ford doesn't need to invest hundreds of millions in heavy trucks to succeed, just offer the customers what they want. Daimler et al is having Ford's lunch in Class 5 and above because they offer pages of options to give the end customers what they want and make life easier for the up fitters. How many million would it cost Ford to put the fuel tanks out of the way or factory fit seats for firefighters? Is Ford so desperate to keep the Power Stroke and transmission plants busy that they can't spare a couple thousand sales a year that they wouldn't have gotten otherwise with Cummins and Allison? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 FWIW in the Ford v. Chevy approach to the mediums..... Even with a down year, Ford is still outselling Chevy's offering. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 11 hours ago, GearheadGrrrl said: Is Ford so desperate to keep the Power Stroke and transmission plants busy that they can't spare a couple thousand sales a year that they wouldn't have gotten otherwise with Cummins and Allison? I have proffered that at the very least, if not Cummins/Allison - an Ecotorq and Eaton trans in F750 as an option....say, the 9L I-6? Since Ford already makes 'em in Turkey AND China, should be fairly easy to get them stateside for F750 duty.... https://fordauthority.com/fmc/ford-motor-company-engines/ford-ecotorq-family/ford-9-0l-ecotorq-330ps-engine/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 2 hours ago, rmc523 said: FWIW in the Ford v. Chevy approach to the mediums..... Even with a down year, Ford is still outselling Chevy's offering. Yes, but remember International dealers are selling the same truck as their CV series, so the total sales of the GM/International JV truck are not reflected here, nor are the Isuzu-courced LCF's. I am quite sure Ford still has more commercial dealers than Chevy does so that is one advantage Ford has. Also note the Silverado MD is a class 4-5-6 truck while the Ford is a class 6-7 only. The Silverado Medium Duty/International CV are built on the same assembly line in Springfield Ohio that produces the International MV truck, and in addition to the GM sourced components some parts are shared with the MV series. I suspect the break-even point of the Silverado MD/International CV is a lot lower than the F-650/750, and in addition there is likely no incentive for using the Springfield assembly line to produce anything but medium duty trucks. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GearheadGrrrl Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 2 hours ago, twintornados said: I have proffered that at the very least, if not Cummins/Allison - an Ecotorq and Eaton trans in F750 as an option....say, the 9L I-6? Since Ford already makes 'em in Turkey AND China, should be fairly easy to get them stateside for F750 duty.... https://fordauthority.com/fmc/ford-motor-company-engines/ford-ecotorq-family/ford-9-0l-ecotorq-330ps-engine/ In a normal world that would make sense, but the U.S. oddball emissions standards are so expensive to meet for such a small market that every medium truck maker has pretty much sourced their engines from Cummins. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 (edited) 1 hour ago, 7Mary3 said: Yes, but remember International dealers are selling the same truck as their CV series, so the total sales of the GM/International JV truck are not reflected here, nor are the Isuzu-courced LCF's. I am quite sure Ford still has more commercial dealers than Chevy does so that is one advantage Ford has. Also note the Silverado MD is a class 4-5-6 truck while the Ford is a class 6-7 only. The Silverado Medium Duty/International CV are built on the same assembly line in Springfield Ohio that produces the International MV truck, and in addition to the GM sourced components some parts are shared with the MV series. I suspect the break-even point of the Silverado MD/International CV is a lot lower than the F-650/750, and in addition there is likely no incentive for using the Springfield assembly line to produce anything but medium duty trucks. I guess that's a fair point regarding potential additional International sales. I recall a while back that Ford's class 7 sales were a small percentage of the "heavy truck" sales. Point being, you bring up that Chevy's may be class 4/5/6, but that still means that Ford's primarily class 6 offering is outselling Chevy's 4/5/6 offerings. Here are Chevy's LCF numbers. They can't be making much on them. But then again, they're just slapping a badge on an Isuzu: Edited January 6 by rmc523 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying68 Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 23 hours ago, twintornados said: I have proffered that at the very least, if not Cummins/Allison - an Ecotorq and Eaton trans in F750 as an option....say, the 9L I-6? Since Ford already makes 'em in Turkey AND China, should be fairly easy to get them stateside for F750 duty.... https://fordauthority.com/fmc/ford-motor-company-engines/ford-ecotorq-family/ford-9-0l-ecotorq-330ps-engine/ Probably not worth the cost of EPA emissions certification. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 1 hour ago, Flying68 said: Probably not worth the cost of EPA emissions certification. Sadly, you are most likely correct. It's just that using the Cummins/Allison combo is probably not worth the cost expense vs using a Ford sourced unit for the amount of projected sales. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherminator98 Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 50 minutes ago, twintornados said: Sadly, you are most likely correct. It's just that using the Cummins/Allison combo is probably not worth the cost expense vs using a Ford sourced unit for the amount of projected sales. I was under the impression that vehicles over a certain GVWC don't have to or have lower standards to meet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 The 'thing' is... The Ford 650 and 750 compete on price. Using an 'in house' powertrain gives the Ford trucks a price advantage, particularly with the 7.3L gasoline engine. If Ford were to offer a Cummins/Allison drive train their trucks would likely be very close in price to Freightliner, International, Mack, and the various PACCAR class 6 and 7 trucks. Those trucks offer significant advantages over the Fords like wider option availability, better cabs, better dealer networks for medium duty sales and service, and better resale. Ford would likely be under pressure to keep the 650/750 price lower than the competition, which would eat into whatever profits those models generate. So, offering 'in house' powertrains exclusively in the 650 and 750 is the best thing Ford can do, I think. The Ecotorq is a non-starter. The costs of emissions certification would have to be spread out over a likely very small sales volume of a Ford class 7/8 truck, not to mention whatever tariffs would be slapped on it. I think Ford-Otosan will increasingly align with Iveco and focus on eastern European and Asian markets. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying68 Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 21 hours ago, Sherminator98 said: I was under the impression that vehicles over a certain GVWC don't have to or have lower standards to meet? It is the opposite. For medium duty (F-450 chassis cab to F-650) and heavy duty (F-750) the engines must be dyno certified. The regulations are much stricter, which is why dyno certified engines are rated at much lower power and torque numbers in order to meet the EPA regulations. The rules do account for GVW, in that the emissions are scaled in a g/tonne metric instead of an absolute number, which is why you can have really big displacement engines in class 8 trucks, but probably couldn't put that same engine in a class 5. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherminator98 Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 32 minutes ago, Flying68 said: It is the opposite. For medium duty (F-450 chassis cab to F-650) and heavy duty (F-750) the engines must be dyno certified. The regulations are much stricter, which is why dyno certified engines are rated at much lower power and torque numbers in order to meet the EPA regulations. The rules do account for GVW, in that the emissions are scaled in a g/tonne metric instead of an absolute number, which is why you can have really big displacement engines in class 8 trucks, but probably couldn't put that same engine in a class 5. Ok that makes sense, i think I was conflating CAFE and Emissions-larger vehicles over certain GVW don't need to meet CAFE. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe771476 Posted January 9 Author Share Posted January 9 On 1/5/2026 at 10:07 PM, GearheadGrrrl said: Ford doesn't need to invest hundreds of millions in heavy trucks to succeed, just offer the customers what they want. Daimler et al is having Ford's lunch in Class 5 and above because they offer pages of options to give the end customers what they want and make life easier for the up fitters. How many million would it cost Ford to put the fuel tanks out of the way or factory fit seats for firefighters? Is Ford so desperate to keep the Power Stroke and transmission plants busy that they can't spare a couple thousand sales a year that they wouldn't have gotten otherwise with Cummins and Allison? Just wondering, what does Daimler offer in class 5? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 4 hours ago, Joe771476 said: Just wondering, what does Daimler offer in class 5? Freightliner offers class 5 stripped chassis, but no trucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 On 1/7/2026 at 1:09 PM, 7Mary3 said: The 'thing' is... The Ford 650 and 750 compete on price. Using an 'in house' powertrain gives the Ford trucks a price advantage, particularly with the 7.3L gasoline engine. If Ford were to offer a Cummins/Allison drive train their trucks would likely be very close in price to Freightliner, International, Mack, and the various PACCAR class 6 and 7 trucks. Those trucks offer significant advantages over the Fords like wider option availability, better cabs, better dealer networks for medium duty sales and service, and better resale. Ford would likely be under pressure to keep the 650/750 price lower than the competition, which would eat into whatever profits those models generate. So, offering 'in house' powertrains exclusively in the 650 and 750 is the best thing Ford can do, I think. The Ecotorq is a non-starter. The costs of emissions certification would have to be spread out over a likely very small sales volume of a Ford class 7/8 truck, not to mention whatever tariffs would be slapped on it. I think Ford-Otosan will increasingly align with Iveco and focus on eastern European and Asian markets. Which is what I keep saying. Absolute BS that they can't overcome the Heat issue to give 7.3 powered 650/750 an air brake option. Truck would have no competition. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 13 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said: Which is what I keep saying. Absolute BS that they can't overcome the Heat issue to give 7.3 powered 650/750 an air brake option. Truck would have no competition. Yes, offering air brakes on gas powered 650/750's seems like such a no-brainer. That option probably wouldn't set the world on fire sales-wise but one would think that the incremental sales increase air brakes would likely generate would justify the cost of offering it. And, you may recall Ford showing pictures of a 650/750 trimmed 7.3L engine with an air brake compressor on it, so Ford did spend time and money to engineer it. Since it would appear Ford has dropped the idea completely I wonder if the current 650 and 750 are on the way out. BTW, has anyone seen the 2027 650/750 order guide yet? Ford is doing yet another early start model year on these trucks and according to my sources production of the 2027's starts on 01/26/2026. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 @ice-capades posted the order guide: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 (edited) From the 2027 Medium Duty order guide as posted by @ice-capades Still only on Diesel - not on gas Edited January 12 by twintornados Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 @Bob Rosadini is gonna be pissed...again! 😄 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 Since the answer was always "it is a heat issue" as to why gas does not get air brakes - wasn't the vent on the side of the F900 hood a way to address that? I am curious as I do not know for sure... Close up.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 5 minutes ago, fordmantpw said: @Bob Rosadini is gonna be pissed...again! 😄 Well, yeah....he makes a valid point. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 2 hours ago, twintornados said: Well, yeah....he makes a valid point. Agreed, but if it was easy, I'm sure Ford would have done it since there were apparently pics of it in place at one point. Ford must have information that points to the juice not being worth the squeeze. I mean, how many gasser with air brakes would they sell? It would likely be an extremely low take rate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 2 hours ago, twintornados said: Since the answer was always "it is a heat issue" as to why gas does not get air brakes - wasn't the vent on the side of the F900 hood a way to address that? I am curious as I do not know for sure... Close up.. Air filter behind that. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 28 minutes ago, fordmantpw said: I mean, how many gasser with air brakes would they sell? It would likely be an extremely low take rate. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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