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Ford Inside News is getting just as bad but this place has to be the worst as far as children getting butt hurt all the time. Im not leaving though before somebody tells me to hit the door. I have not broke any rules and my opinion is worth just as much as the next guys. The traffic here is pitiful due to the way its run.

 

Well, hit the door!

 

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Me personally, I'm not a CUV fan what so ever. To me, too many of the design elements are copy cat of other makes/models and not enough uniqueness between them. If I had to choose a smaller 4-door 5-passenger CUV/SUV, I'd choose something along the lines of the Xterra or newer (2013/2014) Subaru Forester or even the upcoming 2014 Rogue. The vehicles in this segment typically aren't my style or to my liking.

Personally, I think that makes it difficult for you to judge the success of this vehicle or it's impact for Lincoln. I respect you're offering your opinion, but when you say this vehicle doesn't impress you in a segment you don't care for to begin with, perhaps you can understand why we simply point out this segment is a popular seller and vehicles in it sell for reasons you don't know or understand.

 

It comes back to those that criticized the Escape...for moving away from a trucky style and looking like the others. But it sells like crazy. Again, I understand.you just offered your opinion on the styling, but this post belies the fact you can't even articulate the design or features that would have made you compliment it.

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A lot of us here are business savvy so we tend to look at mfrs and vehicles in those terms - long term business strategy, profit and loss, ROI, etc. In that context what Ford is doing with Lincoln makes a lot of sense including starting with the MKZ and MKC and using shared platforms for those higher volume, lower cost vehicles (comparatively speaking).

 

Others only seem to understand the vehicles and to them magazine reviews and other accolades mean everything. They also seem to think that everyone likes what they like and they think that if magazine reviewers and online commenters agree with them then that validates their "opinion" and anyone who disagrees is instantly labeled a fanboi or kool-aid drinker.

 

If you're going to talk business then you have to understand the basic concepts and that includes things like sales volume, new platform development costs vs. shared platform development costs, ROI and the way a corporation makes business decisions. E.g. I've pointed out over and over that Ford has a spreadsheet of viable projects with positive ROI that simply fall below the funding line because there are other more important projects that are either more strategic, cost less to implement and/or have a better ROI. A corporation never has enough capital and other resources to do everything they want to do. If you don't understand things like that then you won't understand why Ford chose not to do an Escape hybrid (C-Max instead) and numerous other decisions.

 

On the vehicle side you need to separate personal opinions and desires from profitable sales if you're talking about what Ford/Lincoln should or shouldn't do (as a business decision). E.g. The MKZ and MKC represent the 2 highest volume luxury market segments right now and in those segments the biggest selling vehicles are FWD based shared platforms. Period. It has nothing to do with the other vehicles those mfrs sell - these vehicles stand alone. So if the highest potential volume can be had with the least expensive platform development (using an existing high volume shared platform) Lincoln would be STUPID not to go after it. And when you're comparing the MKZ and MKC with those other vehicles it needs to be in context - compare the MKZ with the ES350 and other similar vehicles, not with a 330i or A4 and compare the MKC with the SRX and RX because that's what people are buying, not high performance RWD niche vehicles that sell 300/month.

 

OTOH if you just want to express your personal preferences then use phrases like "I like" or "I don't like" or "that wouldn't work for me" or "my preference would be...". Personally I hate the Camry and Corolla and would never consider buying one nor would I recommend it to someone else. But I would never ever claim that Toyota should stop producing them or do anything different because they're top sellers in their segments. Same for BMW - I just don't like the styling with one or two exceptions. But I would never claim that BMW is doing something wrong because their market success speaks for itself.

 

People who take their personal preferences and demand that Lincoln make business decisions based on that (supported by comments from posters on blog sites) while ignoring other facts that they don't agree with get labeled Negatards and deservedly so. If you don't want to be labeled a Negatard then don't act like one.

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Really? This is about the most inefficient source of Ford news in the internet. Coming here for Ford news is like saying you subscribe to Playboy for the articles, and meaning it.

This is why I frequent many Ford sites. This is only one source of information and surely not the end all be all nor the authority on all things Ford. So while many hear disagree with me, that's fine because many on these other sites agree. Doesn't make them right, doesn't make this site and its users right, just shows we all have a difference of opinion.

 

Personally, I think that makes it difficult for you to judge the success of this vehicle or it's impact for Lincoln. I respect you're offering your opinion, but when you say this vehicle doesn't impress you in a segment you don't care for to begin with, perhaps you can understand why we simply point out this segment is a popular seller and vehicles in it sell for reasons you don't know or understand.

 

It comes back to those that criticized the Escape...for moving away from a trucky style and looking like the others. But it sells like crazy. Again, I understand.you just offered your opinion on the styling, but this post belies the fact you can't even articulate the design or features that would have made you compliment it.

Can you please show me where I stated the MKC was going to be a success or failure again?

 

And because I dislike a segment because the products aren't appealing to my liking or needs, means I can't see the likeness between the Escape and MKC? Really?

 

Exactly what in that post was I supposed to articulate regarding the design/features? It was a basic post about not liking small CUV's. Didn't know I was supposed to go in-depth on every aspect about the segment and what likes and dislikes I have and why that is. Curious, if I have to do this about why I dislike them, shouldn't everyone who likes the segment or vehicle go into equal depth of explanation as to why they have such an opinion?

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Can you please show me where I stated the MKC was going to be a success or failure again?

 

Well, you implied it by saying it wasn't helping your hopes for Lincoln.

Little less camo, and still not impressed, but to be fair I'll wait for the final production version before final judgement is made.

 

So no one gets this wrong, these comments are MY OPINION. From what I can see now it's okay, but other than the grille/headlights, it doesn't appear it'll stand out from the rest of the CUV crowd. The cabin (greenhouse) does have an Escape resemblance, while most the rest of the sheet metal looks unique. Like most the comments on the autoblog page, this isn't exciting nor wants me to book an order. To each their own I guess. If you like it, great go support Ford. For me, this does nothing for me or my hopes of Lincoln.

 

Again these are simply my personal opinions, not saying they are fact. Just don't want those certain special individuals to take my comments out of context or get offended because they thought I was implying my opinion was a fact.

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The hardest thing to do as a fan with preferences for particular vehicles is to put those biases aside and just simply perceive vehicles like MKZ and MKC

as potential buyers in the market place would. The market is nowhere near as harsh or final as critics make out. All lincoln has to do is start delivering

on promised vehicles and let buyers decide whether they like them or not.

 

 

I find it a little rich that fans on a Ford / Lincoln supporter website have to constantly defend products in the face of critics accusing us of being stupid, gullible fanboys.

Convincing critics that they are wrong is a futile endeavor but equally, should these people be allowed to muddy up thread after thread with the same rhetoric?

 

We get that people don't like the present Lincoln products, we understand that you guys will probably never set foot in a Lincoln dealership but please stop presenting

your views as some sort of gold standard or worse that you represent the view of thousands of non-buyers. Lincoln couldn't care less about the +90% of the

market that are non-buyers, it only ever intends to capture a small amount of passing traffic, three thousand sales or more of each new product would be

more than enough especially at the price premiums being asked. So that leaves Lincoln and Ford plenty of scope to be effective and highly profitable.

China looms large as potential pay dirt for Lincoln and Ford products, enough sales there will carry the costs of designing products further enhancing

the value of Ford's premium brand.

Edited by jpd80
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As far as MKC goes...I am extremely interested in one AS A BUYER....I want to see one, I want to test drive one, I hope it has the luxury I expect in a vehicle of this caliber. I was going to buy a Mercury when I was ready to trade in my 2006 Fusion SE...but a funny thing happened along the way...Ford shut down Mercury so I got the Fusion SEL instead...the plan was to drive the Merc a few years and then get a Lincoln...well...it has been a few years....I like what I have seen so far...if all checks out as I anticipate...within six months, I will be behind the wheel of an MKC...

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As far as MKC goes...I am extremely interested in one AS A BUYER....I want to see one, I want to test drive one, I hope it has the luxury I expect in a vehicle of this caliber. I was going to buy a Mercury when I was ready to trade in my 2006 Fusion SE...but a funny thing happened along the way...Ford shut down Mercury so I got the Fusion SEL instead...the plan was to drive the Merc a few years and then get a Lincoln...well...it has been a few years....I like what I have seen so far...if all checks out as I anticipate...within six months, I will be behind the wheel of an MKC...

 

Actual potential buyers need not apply...

 

If you don't have something negative to say about Lincoln, then you are just drinking the kool aid.

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Well, you implied it by saying it wasn't helping your hopes for Lincoln.

And as posted, it was all regarding "my hopes" as in the style direction. Where did I imply that this would hurt the hopes for Lincoln or others? As stated previously, I love the design of the MKZ, and that vehicle would attract me to a Lincoln dealer if I was truly in the market for a mid-size sedan. Not a potential buyer right now, but the appeal factor would warrant at least a test drive IF I were in the market. From what I can see from the MKC, and I understand it is still camo'd, but it just doesn't produce the same excitement or appeal to me as the MKZ. So having hopes with the MKZ and being disappointed by the MKC isn't okay and I'm now implying the doom of Lincoln?

 

 

I find it a little rich that fans on a Ford / Lincoln supporter website have to constantly defend products in the face of critics accusing us of being stupid, gullible fanboys.

Convincing critics that they are wrong is a futile endeavor but equally, should these people be allowed to muddy up thread after thread with the same rhetoric?

Difference is when Ford/Lincoln fans defend the product to no end and can't see a products flaws, always seeing every new product as the best thing since sliced bread. That is when they become a gullible fanboy. A Ford/Lincoln supporter can be objective and see the good/bads of any product and won't simply defend every move Ford/Lincoln makes or every product they produce.

 

Critics or doubters will always be out there. And why should you have to prove anything, shouldn't the product itself do that? If someone doesn't like a particular vehicle, that's their opinion, why should anyone attempt to prove them wrong and try to change their mind? Aren't we all entitled to our opinions, right or wrong? Simply agree to disagree and all will be happy. But I understand there will always be those from both sides that can't drop it at that and have to continue to push their objective cause they think they are always right.

 

Me, I'm on both sides. Love many Ford/Lincoln products, and can see various flaws in those products but I still like them. I dislike some Ford/Lincoln products, see the flaws in them, but they still sell well.

 

If you don't have something negative to say about Lincoln, then you are just drinking the kool aid.

Just like if you have one negative comment, regardless of how many positive comments you've made about other products, you are a troll. 2-way street.

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Just like if you have one negative comment, regardless of how many positive comments you've made about other products, you are a troll. 2-way street.

 

Show me one person that has been labeled a troll after one negative comment. I guarantee you won't find one. The ones that are labeled as trolls are the ones that keep beating the same dead horse over and over and over and failing to see the light. Almost all of us here have acknowledged the negative side (of Lincoln, Ford, you name it), but there are some who cannot fathom seeing any positives. Those are the trolls and negatards.

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Difference is when Ford/Lincoln fans defend the product to no end and can't see a products flaws, always seeing every new product as the best thing since sliced bread.

 

I haven't seen anyone say that Lincoln's vehicles have no shortcomings. Certainly none of us have compared them to sliced bread. Many of us have, however, simply pointed out that the new arrivals appear to at least be fairly competent within their segments, something that could not be said of any Lincoln launched in recent history, and that it appears Lincoln has a plan in place to improve those vehicles further and consistently, again unlike what they had done previously.

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Show me one person that has been labeled a troll after one negative comment. I guarantee you won't find one. The ones that are labeled as trolls are the ones that keep beating the same dead horse over and over and over and failing to see the light. Almost all of us here have acknowledged the negative side (of Lincoln, Ford, you name it), but there are some who cannot fathom seeing any positives. Those are the trolls and negatards.

I agree, maybe one comment won't do it. But at the same time, show me anyone who has been called out for drinking the aid after just one comment. You won't find one there either.

 

If you see bad in all Ford products, then you're most likely a negatard. If you see nothing but good in every Ford product, you are most likely drinking the kool-aid. There has to be some middle ground there, as not everything is doom 'n' gloom, just like not everything is always peachy.

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I agree, maybe one comment won't do it. But at the same time, show me anyone who has been called out for drinking the aid after just one comment. You won't find one there either.

 

If you see bad in all Ford products, then you're most likely a negatard. If you see nothing but good in every Ford product, you are most likely drinking the kool-aid. There has to be some middle ground there, as not everything is doom 'n' gloom, just like not everything is always peachy.

 

Again, I don't see anyone here claiming that all is "always peachy" at Lincoln, just that they finally appear to have a plan that will land them on a firm and sustainable footing. Sustainability is a long ways away from outright domination of the luxury market.

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I agree, maybe one comment won't do it. But at the same time, show me anyone who has been called out for drinking the aid after just one comment. You won't find one there either.

 

If you see bad in all Ford products, then you're most likely a negatard. If you see nothing but good in every Ford product, you are most likely drinking the kool-aid. There has to be some middle ground there, as not everything is doom 'n' gloom, just like not everything is always peachy.

 

Your problem is that you say subjective things but they come out as objective comparisons that don't make any sense. Then you get all up in arms when we disagree.

 

When you say the MKC looks too much like the Escape and you have no hopes for Lincoln - any jury in the world would agree that you're implying that the MKC is a rebadge and that Lincoln is doomed because of it. And that's not a valid statement because objectively the MKC and Escape look no more alike than any other small crossover and looking at sales numbers of similar vehicles shows that type of vehicle can be the top seller for a luxury brand.

 

That's why we disagree with you.

 

If what you meant to say is that you just don't personally like the design and would not buy one and that your hopes for a Lincoln that you personally would want to own are not high - THEN SAY IT THAT WAY for pete's sake. And YES, there is a difference.

 

Here is a simpler analogy: There are many great films that are critically acclaimed that I personally would never watch or want to watch. However, I recognize that they were well made and have great appeal to those who are into those types of films. I don't call them terrible films just because I personally don't like them. They're great films that I just don't care for. OTOH there are films that are terrible period and should be labeled that way.

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for drinking the aid

 

You know what? I'm sick of this phrase.

 

But apart from that, if you want to know *why* people object to what you post here, perhaps you should look at what this phrase says about *you*, and how *you* view the rest of the people on this forum.

 

You aren't going to change what the rest of us think, but you can do something about your attitude toward the rest of the forum.

 

This little 'slip of the tongue', to me, says worlds about your opinion of this forum.

 

It raises the question of why one would freely choose to associate with so many whom one clearly considers to be intellectually defective.

Edited by RichardJensen
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Your problem is that you say subjective things but they come out as objective comparisons that don't make any sense. Then you get all up in arms when we disagree.

 

When you say the MKC looks too much like the Escape and you have no hopes for Lincoln - any jury in the world would agree that you're implying that the MKC is a rebadge and that Lincoln is doomed because of it. And that's not a valid statement because objectively the MKC and Escape look no more alike than any other small crossover and looking at sales numbers of similar vehicles shows that type of vehicle can be the top seller for a luxury brand.

 

That's why we disagree with you.

 

If what you meant to say is that you just don't personally like the design and would not buy one and that your hopes for a Lincoln that you personally would want to own are not high - THEN SAY IT THAT WAY for pete's sake. And YES, there is a difference.

 

Here is a simpler analogy: There are many great films that are critically acclaimed that I personally would never watch or want to watch. However, I recognize that they were well made and have great appeal to those who are into those types of films. I don't call them terrible films just because I personally don't like them. They're great films that I just don't care for. OTOH there are films that are terrible period and should be labeled that way.

Again, I have no problem if others disagree, as you shouldn't if I disagree with you. We have clearly different opinions. Problem I have is others trying to force their opinion or point of view on me, which is not going to change my feelings about it.

 

Please read my initial post again below. Never said the MKC looks too much like the Escape, I simply stated I see similarities in certain areas. Like brothers, they may have similarities, doesn't mean they look too much alike. And stating the MKC doesn't do anything for my hopes for Lincoln from a style standpoint, in no way implies that overall Lincoln will go down the toilet and that the product won't sell. It's simply a comment about this one vehicle and my opinion from the style aspect. Show me anywhere that I stated this won't sell and everyone will hate it? Again you are adding content and intent to my comments that was never made nor implied. If the new MKS comes out looking more like the MKZ and less like the MKC, that's an extreme positive in my eyes, from my perspective and opinion. And if the MKS does look more like the MKZ, doesn't mean it'll be a good product, just means in my eyes, it will be more appealing.

 

Again I stated I personally didn't like the vehicle style, and it did nothing for me or MY hopes for Lincoln. Same thing you just said for pete's sake.

 

As to your last comment, where did I ever say this was a bad product and wouldn't sell? See you want to read into my comments and extract statements that were never made. As I've stated all along, the style does nothing for me, period, end of story. Why are you trying to make this into me saying Lincoln is doomed, no one will ever buy their products cause their chitty and because I dislike the style of one particular vehicle, everyone should dislike it.

 

I get it, you like the style, you think it'll be a hot seller that could increase Lincoln sales by 50%, great. Your statements of thinking it'll be a big time seller are more objective than me saying I personally dislike the style of the vehicle and it does nothing for me. Sheesh, look in the mirror and your own comments before calling others out.

 

Little less camo, and still not impressed, but to be fair I'll wait for the final production version before final judgement is made.

 

So no one gets this wrong, these comments are MY OPINION. From what I can see now it's okay, but other than the grille/headlights, it doesn't appear it'll stand out from the rest of the CUV crowd. The cabin (greenhouse) does have an Escape resemblance, while most the rest of the sheet metal looks unique. Like most the comments on the autoblog page, this isn't exciting nor wants me to book an order. To each their own I guess. If you like it, great go support Ford. For me, this does nothing for me or my hopes of Lincoln.

 

Again these are simply my personal opinions, not saying they are fact. Just don't want those certain special individuals to take my comments out of context or get offended because they thought I was implying my opinion was a fact.

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