RichardJensen Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 (edited) where did I ever say this was a bad product and wouldn't sell? Right here: this does nothing for...my hopes of Lincoln How can this be interpreted in even a neutral, much less a positive light? If you are *not* saying that this is a 'bad' product, then what *are* you saying? Edited October 28, 2013 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 If you see bad in all Ford products, then you're most likely a negatard. If you see nothing but good in every Ford product, you are most likely drinking the kool-aid. There has to be some middle ground there, as not everything is doom 'n' gloom, just like not everything is always peachy. It's a matter of perspective. Some people always see the negative. Some people always see the positive. I always try to see the positive, but I'm not blinded by that. But, I also think that all Ford products have negatives. They aren't perfect. There is something wrong that needs to be improved in each and every model. But my philosophy is to see the good in each of them, and realize that, in most cases, the good outweigh the bad. The negatards/trolls cannot see the good. They can't see the forest for the trees, and why they continue to post here other than to stir the pot, nobody knows. As RJ mentioned, if we are all intellectually inferior as has been implied (not necessarily by you), then why the hell do you hang out with us? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 Never said the MKC looks too much like the Escape, I simply stated I see similarities in certain areas. I rest my case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 (edited) Difference is when Ford/Lincoln fans defend the product to no end and can't see a products flaws, always seeing every new product as the best thing since sliced bread. That is when they become a gullible fanboy. A Ford/Lincoln supporter can be objective and see the good/bads of any product and won't simply defend every move Ford/Lincoln makes or every product they produce. Critics or doubters will always be out there. And why should you have to prove anything, shouldn't the product itself do that? If someone doesn't like a particular vehicle, that's their opinion, why should anyone attempt to prove them wrong and try to change their mind? Aren't we all entitled to our opinions, right or wrong? Simply agree to disagree and all will be happy. But I understand there will always be those from both sides that can't drop it at that and have to continue to push their objective cause they think they are always right. Me, I'm on both sides. Love many Ford/Lincoln products, and can see various flaws in those products but I still like them. I dislike some Ford/Lincoln products, see the flaws in them, but they still sell well. Just like if you have one negative comment, regardless of how many positive comments you've made about other products, you are a troll. 2-way street. The difference is this, my support for Lincoln is not blind cheer leading at all, I actually defer to the opinions of people who actually buy new Lincolns, especially the new MKZ. At no time have I ever said that the new MKZ is perfect or without faults, the difference in opinion is again, how actual buyers perceive faults and Issues raised by people who are critical of the products. By citing buyer approval and buying patterns suggesting much higher ATPs, we are some how branded as trolls on our own supporter site. The constant assertions by reviewers like CR and others that MKZ is a substandard product or "Not Recommended" is at issue here and critics use of their reviews as some sort of gold standard that we should all blindly accept. Re trolling accusation, This is not a two way street, critics seem to be given plenty of latitude to trash MKZ on the say so of others and their reviews yet when someone attempts to apply balance to the argument they are branded as trolls on their own supporter website....I know that Richard gives people a pretty long lead in the hopes that spirited debate will issue forth. Unfortunately some among us see this as permission to begin dumping on Lincoln by dressing up their own or others opinions as facts. Finally, V8-X, I don't have issues with you own opinions, what I have issue with those who constantly hijack threads by making MKZ problems appear bigger than what they are and trying to put down its recent success in the market as ineffective while ignoring the huge increase in ATPs and interest in hybrids in places like California and Florida. It is clear that Ford and Lincoln need to do more, I have said that repeatedly but for now all we had was the MKZ, a car that recovered from a terrible start to level with 2012 YOY sales is pretty good in my books...something backed up by sales statistics no less.. If you see bad in all Ford products, then you're most likely a negatard. If you see nothing but good in every Ford product, you are most likely drinking the kool-aid. There has to be some middle ground there, as not everything is doom 'n' gloom, just like not everything is always peachy. Exactly, that's why I'm asking for a bit more balance and perspective Never said the MKC looks too much like the Escape, I simply stated I see similarities in certain areas. Of course there has to be some similarity, MKC is based on Escape, otherwise we would be discussing a vehicle with a completely different top hat, something that's probably not economically possible for Ford/Lincoln, or more correctly something they are not prepared to do just yet until income and sales improve some more. The best we can hope for is enough difference to make the baby Lincoln look special......to people who want to buy it. Edited October 28, 2013 by jpd80 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8-X Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 But apart from that, if you want to know *why* people object to what you post here, perhaps you should look at what this phrase says about *you*, and how *you* view the rest of the people on this forum. You aren't going to change what the rest of us think, but you can do something about your attitude toward the rest of the forum. This little 'slip of the tongue', to me, says worlds about your opinion of this forum. It raises the question of why one would freely choose to associate with so many whom one clearly considers to be intellectually defective. Says about me and my view of the rest of the people here? How do I view the rest of the people on this forum again? Most I have no issues with, whether I agree or disagree with them, or at least they have made no mention. There are only a select few, less than a hand full, that I really have had any negative interaction with. And my comment was in general that yes this type of name calling does happen and it goes both ways, nether side is without fault. Personally, I attempt to refrain from using those names, as it does nothing for the thread. If some want to point the finger though, they too should expect such actions in return. I typically only use such phrases, as I did above, when making mention to the double standards that exist. And I'm not here to change what people think, as others won't change my opinion. All I've done is provide my personal opinion, from my point of view. And if others on the forum think I have attitude simply for defending myself and my point of view, I am sorry. This is not my intent, as I'm simply providing my opinion on the style of a vehicle. Didn't know someone could have attitude problems simply because they provided their opinion and defended that opinion. And you know why people are rarely 'called out' (another phrase I'm sick of) for saying something uniformly positive, or even *unrealistically* positive? Because it's a FORD FAN SITE. And I understand this is a Ford site, and have no issues with that from being a Ford fan myself. I understand there will always be more leeway on one side of the aisle on items such as this. But IMO being positive and unrealistically positive to a fault should carry a difference type of response. In other words, if you're going to spit in the wind, don't be surprised if you end up with spit on your face. Amazing that simply providing your opinion on the style of a vehicle that such offense is taken by others. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8-X Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 Right here: How can this be interpreted in even a neutral, much less a positive light? If you are *not* saying that this is a 'bad' product, then what *are* you saying? Where did I state that was a positive? Does nothing for me and my hopes for Lincoln means I do not like it, and if this is the style direction of Lincoln, my hopes would be diminished. This in no way was directed as fact and this is how the masses with feel nor how it will impact Lincoln from a sales perspective. And if you've read any of my posts, never stated this was a bad product, just that I disliked the style. Again, read the entire post, not take that one portion out of context like I stated nothing else in the post to further illustrate my dislike for the style. Vehicle could have a wonderful interior and excellent powertrain and affordable MSRP, making it a great overall vehicle. But this doesn't mean I like the style. It's a matter of perspective. Some people always see the negative. Some people always see the positive. I always try to see the positive, but I'm not blinded by that. But, I also think that all Ford products have negatives. They aren't perfect. There is something wrong that needs to be improved in each and every model. But my philosophy is to see the good in each of them, and realize that, in most cases, the good outweigh the bad. The negatards/trolls cannot see the good. They can't see the forest for the trees, and why they continue to post here other than to stir the pot, nobody knows. As RJ mentioned, if we are all intellectually inferior as has been implied (not necessarily by you), then why the hell do you hang out with us? And I do not find others here to be inferior. To me, we have differing opinions and I leave it at that. I simply look down on the attacking of ones personal opinion as if the others opinion carries more weight. And why am I here, because I'm a Ford fan who has purchased 5 new Ford products, and is hoping the Atlas (if it comes out) will be #6. I rest my case. Looks too much alike and similarities are two different things. Saying a vehicle has a similar greenhouse doesn't mean they look too much alike. Heck you could say something like the vehicles have similar rims but it doesn't mean the body look alike. Something is too much alike, means their are nearly twins, or bear a strong resemblance to one another. Similarity in certain aspects means they have a feature that resembles one another, it does not mean they are nearly identical. Thanks for resting your case though. sim·i·lar·i·ty 1. A comparable aspect 2. A corresponding aspect or feature 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pictor Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 In my eye I see more similarities to the Audi Q5 then Escape, but that's just my opinion, (which like butt-holes, everyone has). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 And I do not find others here to be inferior. To me, we have differing opinions and I leave it at that. I simply look down on the attacking of ones personal opinion as if the others opinion carries more weight. Like I said, that one wasn't directed at you, but a few others who take that approach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 Amazing that simply providing your opinion on the style of a vehicle that such offense is taken by others. Here's the problem: you are either lying to us, or you are incapable of accurately conveying your thoughts. Because when you say something is 'tarted up', and then assure us that this isn't intended to be an insult, you're either lying or you're failing to communicate. When you say that a product 'does nothing for your hopes of Lincoln', but then assure us that this is not meant to imply that you think there's something wrong with the product, then, again, you're either lying, or you've made an exceptionally poor choice of words. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 (edited) The point is that we must take ourselves and our opinions out of the equation and try to understand the perception of actual buyers who for the most part are less polarized than our BON opinions, people who judge a car on its merits and either like what they see or go shop elsewhere. People who don't come with a whole lot of preconceived misgivings (otherwise they wouldn't be there). For all the supposed shortcomings in quality and differentiation, plenty of buyers still sign up for high series vehicles. If the vehicles were as meh as some would have us believe, then we wouldn't be seeing anything like those ATPs. Edited October 29, 2013 by jpd80 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jr.f Posted November 1, 2013 Share Posted November 1, 2013 Ford watches this site very closely--AFAIK, one forum member was suspended for posting confidential info as recently as either last year or 2011. There Watching Real Close Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jr.f Posted November 1, 2013 Share Posted November 1, 2013 I hope your screen name of Jr. F means you are William jr... Sorry not Him Wish I had the Family money though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 (edited) Look at Lincoln's range, there's two sedans and with the arrival of MKC, there will be four Utilities. If you don't like Utilities then there's only MKZ and MKS for you Edited November 2, 2013 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonj80 Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 Look at Lincoln's range, there's two sedans and with the arrival of MKC, there will be four Utilities. If you don't like Utilities then there's only MKZ and MKS for you The largest growth in Luxury vehicles is in SUV's, they are smart going this route. You will see Lincoln get some additional cars as the product line fills out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 The largest growth in Luxury vehicles is in SUV's, they are smart going this route. You will see Lincoln get some additional cars as the product line fills out. Don't get em wrong, I think Lincoln will find very fertile ground seeking out buyers for Luxury Utilities, MKZ sells well with significantly higher ATPs today (+65%) and shows what can be done with brand building. In the conference call yesterday, Ford mentioned some exciting news for Lincoln in a few weeks time, probably the MKC but a fresh Navigator, new MKX and a reworked MKT more like the Explorer SUV would see sales bump much higher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kris Kolman Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 Did they somewhat confirm a MK-Explorer? Navigator and MKX prototypes have been seen driving around, making the MKT even more needing of an update. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonj80 Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 Did they somewhat confirm a MK-Explorer? Navigator and MKX prototypes have been seen driving around, making the MKT even more needing of an update. I would assume the next MKT will be the Explorer type vehicle. If you look at the fleet bulletin they are already showing the MKC opening banks in Mid December, it also is showing the Escape as well with TBD I'm assuming it will also switch the same time the MKC starts. The 2015's will be good or acceptable in the new IIHS small offset crashtest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 (edited) Did they somewhat confirm a MK-Explorer? Navigator and MKX prototypes have been seen driving around, making the MKT even more needing of an update. My bad, mixing quote from Ford re MKC with personal opinions on existing Lincolns.. No conformation whatsoever on MK-Explorer, it's purely an opinion shared by many on the internet after fleets came back to Ford and said they didn't want MKT, preferring Navigator, the feeling was that MKT needed to be more SUV like (as in previous Aviator?) Edited November 2, 2013 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 The timing of an Explorer based MKT replacement is dependent on when the Explorer gets moved to a new platform. Makes no sense to do a MK explorer when the base platform gets replaced with in a few years after it comes out. The Explorer should get a MCE in the next 18-24 months and it most likely a new platform in 2017-18... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 The timing of an Explorer based MKT replacement is dependent on when the Explorer gets moved to a new platform. Makes no sense to do a MK explorer when the base platform gets replaced with in a few years after it comes out. The Explorer should get a MCE in the next 18-24 months and it most likely a new platform in 2017-18... What if that new Explorer platform is a heavily reworked and improved version of D3, that would change the equation significantly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 What if that new Explorer platform is a heavily reworked and improved version of D3, that would change the equation significantly. I don't think Ford has made a decision yet on the next Explorer but personally, I don't see D3 sticking around for the long haul. If you add up the volume of Explorer, Flex, Territory, and MKT, you are still talking about way under 1 million units annually, which I believe is what the auto industry considers the magic volume where unique platform starts to make sense. The combined volume of all these SUV name plates is also paradoxically too high to take a "boutique" approach that Ford is doing with Mustang. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 What if that new Explorer platform is a heavily reworked and improved version of D3, that would change the equation significantly. I don't see Ford spending that $$$ on the D3...the D3 platform is more or less a dead end product and I see the next gen Explorer as a 3 row Edge/Fusion platform shared with the D4/Taurus/MKS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 I've provided my two cents on the replacement for D3: It'll be a highly modified CD4, not unlike the relationship between the Accord & Pilot/Odyssey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 There Watching Real Close but are they listening ?...after all, we are all vehicular experts here.......lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jr.f Posted November 5, 2013 Share Posted November 5, 2013 but are they listening ?...after all, we are all vehicular experts here.......lol NO they don't even listen to us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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