156n3rd Posted November 24, 2013 Share Posted November 24, 2013 Toyota just keeps on holding the number one spot with it's Camry. I know how good the Fusion is and can't believe it isn't number one. I know Chrysler can't sell cars in this class because they haven't built one in years. Thye have cars being built in Italy they could use.Some very attractive and ecent models at that. Haven't they heard of badge engineering like GM? Okay, so they don't have a real contender and it is doubtful they ever will. GM has the Malibu, ruined by GM the last time they tried to tweak it. VW is trying to take over the world, but I doubt they will ever sell enough of anything in this country to achieve an in-roads any time soon. Hyundia/Kia have the Sonata and Optima respectively and while they do sell some, they are not in a positiion to become #1. So what is it gonna take to become king? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 It takes several generations of faithful buyers to get to #1. You need an embedded based of repeat buyers as you continue to add new buyers. This is only the 2nd generation for the Fusion and until a few months ago they were capacity constrained. I think you'll see the Camry lead slowly erode. I've seen the new Camry and it won't attract any new buyers. But it won't happen overnight either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coupe3w Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Ford also needs to keep quality up. I know they are trying, but problems with MFT is being perceived as a quality issue. Suppliers have to step up and Ford has to do a better job at making sure the suppliers are building to Fords specs. and following Fords procedures. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Flat Rock is now building around 9,000 extra Fusions per month which bodes well for the next spring and Summer sales boom. Last season, Ford built up as much inventory as it could (thanks to MKZ production halt) and it paid of with one or two + $30K months It's really only this model Fusion that has catapulted Ford sales so it will take a while for its reputation to filter through.. The average transaction price is also key here, Camry is around $24K whilst Fusion is just over $27,000 meaning that Fusion buyers are ordering more expensive Fusions compared to Camry buyers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron W. Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 King? Years of consistent quality, problem free launches, very few (zero would be better) recalls etc. If Ford pays attention to the vehicles it builds the numbers ( sales and profit ) will take care of themselves. My thought is this IS what Ford is striving for. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomcat68 Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Why do you need to stop it? Just build the best car you can, make your customers happy, and maintain the best possible profit... Then maybe you will become the best seller. But don't compromise those ideals to get #1 because the sales crown is really a tin hat and besides, is the Camry really that good of a car? (It's getting an emergency refresh after being out for 2 years in 2014!) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Some people are obsessed with sales volumes (and some executives) and they lose track of profits and long term viability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grbeck Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Camry offers what a lot of people want in a car (which tends to be the exact opposite of what people who post on sites such as this want). The big risk here is that the Camry's customer base ages, and Toyota discovers that, by 2017 or so, the Camry has become the new Buick LeSabre. I see lots of senior citizens in Camrys - far more so than in Honda Accords. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
156n3rd Posted November 25, 2013 Author Share Posted November 25, 2013 I feel that by being number one in the most important model on sale in this country, that Ford would be able to move up on other models as well. It has to do with selling the best car, which is the Fusion, and having the support to achieve it. The Camry still looks like yesterday's news. Being number one is about proving that an American car should be in that psotion. besdies, Toyota is just as afallable as GM and they do not deserve to be tops either. Toyota's design leave me cold and I am sure that Ford can and should do better. That's all there is to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Being #1 is overrated, especially if you have to increase fleet sales or lower profit levels to get there. You also have to overextend production capacity which can hurt you if the market takes a downturn. If Ford can get to #1 without doing those things then that would be fantastic. But it's not the ultimate goal. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grbeck Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Being #1 is overrated, especially if you have to increase fleet sales or lower profit levels to get there. You also have to overextend production capacity which can hurt you if the market takes a downturn. If Ford can get to #1 without doing those things then that would be fantastic. But it's not the ultimate goal. Exactly. People need to review what happened to the Ford Taurus in the early 1990s when Ford used those tactics to topple the Honda Accord from the number-one spot. (Both cars ended up getting bumped down by the Camry.) At least now Ford seems to have learned its lesson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Exactly. People need to review what happened to the Ford Taurus in the early 1990s when Ford used those tactics to topple the Honda Accord from the number-one spot. (Both cars ended up getting bumped down by the Camry.) At least now Ford seems to have learned its lesson. It did get me a great deal on a 1990 Ranger though. In 1989 I bought a reg cab swb 4 cylinder manual Ranger XLT with chrome bumpers, chrome wheels, am/fm cassette and sliding rear window for $7995. I asked why it was so cheap and they said it was because Ford was trying to keep the #1 sales position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrewfanGRB Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 I feel that by being number one in the most important model on sale in this country, that Ford would be able to move up on other models as well. It has to do with selling the best car, which is the Fusion, and having the support to achieve it. The Camry still looks like yesterday's news. Being number one is about proving that an American car should be in that psotion. besdies, Toyota is just as afallable as GM and they do not deserve to be tops either. Toyota's design leave me cold and I am sure that Ford can and should do better. That's all there is to it. But WHY? What does that GET Ford? Nothing. The ONLY thing that matters is profit. You seem fixated on some illusory ideal ala "We're Number 1!". It's meaningless. The only time more sales is beneficial is if that increase happens while maintaining the same margins. If you sacrifice margin to get those sales, that's rarely a good thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coupe3w Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 But WHY? What does that GET Ford? Nothing. The ONLY thing that matters is profit. You seem fixated on some illusory ideal ala "We're Number 1!". It's meaningless. The only time more sales is beneficial is if that increase happens while maintaining the same margins. If you sacrifice margin to get those sales, that's rarely a good thing. The ONLY thing that matters is Profit? Really? Only to the share holders maybe. If profit (greed) comes before customer satisfaction no business will survive in the long run. Without customers you have no PROFIT. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 The ONLY thing that matters is Profit? Really? Only to the share holders maybe. If profit (greed) comes before customer satisfaction no business will survive in the long run. Without customers you have no PROFIT. What the heck does being number one in sales have to do with customer satisfaction? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 (edited) The ONLY thing that matters is Profit? Really? Only to the share holders maybe. If profit (greed) comes before customer satisfaction no business will survive in the long run. Without customers you have no PROFIT.If your customers are not satisfied, they stop buying your product, which leads to lower profits. Customer satisfaction has a correlation to profits. Being #1 in a segment in sales (as opposed to closely behind at #2 or 3#) does not. Yes, if Ford was 8th in sales in the midsize sedan segment, that would be troubling since they put a lot of effort and resources into that segment. But they aren't. Edited November 26, 2013 by NickF1011 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
156n3rd Posted November 26, 2013 Author Share Posted November 26, 2013 All of your arguments make perfect sense. But what about pride in the name of Ford? Being number one in any competition is a coveted position to attain. When you stop trying to be the best by NOT trying to be, it shows in your customer loyalty base. Toyota is a pain the ass! It steps all over Ford in one of the most segments right here at home. The Camry is ugly. It is not like it is a trphy car. The Fusion has real beauty. Why WOULDN'T car buyrers NOT want one? Anyone whjo thinks being number one in this segment is blinded by odd values. Ford is American. It beats Chevy. It should beat Toyota too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papilgee4evaeva Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 What the heck does being number one in sales have to do with customer satisfaction? Case in point: Everyone hates Walmart, but seemingly everyone shops there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papilgee4evaeva Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 All of your arguments make perfect sense. But what about pride in the name of Ford? Being number one in any competition is a coveted position to attain. When you stop trying to be the best by NOT trying to be, it shows in your customer loyalty base. Toyota is a pain the ass! It steps all over Ford in one of the most segments right here at home. The Camry is ugly. It is not like it is a trphy car. The Fusion has real beauty. Why WOULDN'T car buyrers NOT want one? Anyone whjo thinks being number one in this segment is blinded by odd values. Ford is American. It beats Chevy. It should beat Toyota too. Selling the most doesn't mean being the best. Ford doesn't currently have the capacity to build the Fusion at greater levels. And even if they did, if they had to resort to Camry and Malibu tactics and dump their excess into rental fleets just to attain a nebulous #1 title, they wouldn't do it. They learned their lesson from the midsize Taurus days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 All of your arguments make perfect sense. But what about pride in the name of Ford? Being number one in any competition is a coveted position to attain. When you stop trying to be the best by NOT trying to be, it shows in your customer loyalty base. Toyota is a pain the ass! It steps all over Ford in one of the most segments right here at home. The Camry is ugly. It is not like it is a trphy car. The Fusion has real beauty. Why WOULDN'T car buyrers NOT want one? Anyone whjo thinks being number one in this segment is blinded by odd values. Ford is American. It beats Chevy. It should beat Toyota too. Being number one is good for bragging rights but at the end of the day it doesn't pay the bills or keep the doors open and any business that compromises profitability just to be #1 is going to fail. That was part of the problem with Ford and GM in the 90s - they were going after sales and keeping the factories running without regard to profitability or long term viability. Let's say Ford adds enough infrastructure to be #1 in production and they add numerous plants and workers to do it. Then they have to drop the prices or put cash on the hood to obtain the top sales figures so profits erode. Then there is some downturn and sales drop and you're left with all this capacity to pay for but no profits. That's why GM went bankrupt. We'd all like to see Fusion number one but nobody wants Ford to compromise profits to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 We'd all like to see Fusion number one but nobody wants Ford to compromise profits to do it. They are taking the approach that got Camry to #1 in the first place: continue to better the product with incremental changes and do what is required to retain customers who have bought one previously. Look how far the Fusion has come in a relatively short time and remember they were basically starting from scratch in the mid-size sedan segment at the time. Camry has had generations of repeat buyers by this point and the Fusion is still right on its heels! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papilgee4evaeva Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 (edited) They are taking the approach that got Camry to #1 in the first place: continue to better the product with incremental changes and do what is required to retain customers who have bought one previously. Look how far the Fusion has come in a relatively short time and remember they were basically starting from scratch in the mid-size sedan segment at the time. Camry has had generations of repeat buyers by this point and the Fusion is still right on its heels! Camry had a pretty easy road to get to #1 here too: all of the domestic midsize sedans were comparatively trash, so they waltzed right in. Fusion has a harder road to travel since the midsize market isn't as easy to conquer as it was 10-15 years ago. Getting there was easy. Staying there may cost Toyota with the tactics that they use. Edited November 26, 2013 by papilgee4evaeva Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coupe3w Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 They are taking the approach that got Camry to #1 in the first place: continue to better the product with incremental changes and do what is required to retain customers who have bought one previously. Look how far the Fusion has come in a relatively short time and remember they were basically starting from scratch in the mid-size sedan segment at the time. Camry has had generations of repeat buyers by this point and the Fusion is still right on its heels! I agree. If you make a quality product, word of mouth will bring in the customers which = profits. Takes time to reassure the customers though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 (edited) I agree. If you make a quality product, word of mouth will bring in the customers which = profits. Takes time to reassure the customers though. Most Fusion owners at this point are also only one-time owners, and many are likely new to the entire Ford brand. Takes a very good product to retain conquest buyers once they switch to your product. If it's a so-so experience or about on par to what they experienced with the previous brand they owned there's a pretty good chance they'll go back on their next purchase. Interesting factoid: looking at a Bloomberg article I found, it said 11% of Fusion buyers were repeat customers while a full 33% of Camry buyers were. Edited November 26, 2013 by NickF1011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grbeck Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 They are taking the approach that got Camry to #1 in the first place: continue to better the product with incremental changes and do what is required to retain customers who have bought one previously. Look how far the Fusion has come in a relatively short time and remember they were basically starting from scratch in the mid-size sedan segment at the time. Camry has had generations of repeat buyers by this point and the Fusion is still right on its heels! If Ford had used this approach with the first-generation Taurus, it would never have lost the number-one spot in the first place. The car pretty much provided the template for the Camry in the early 1990s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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