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The article says they wanted to diversify. Another reason was that it could reach 150 MPH. Show me where a NYC cruiser can reach 150 MPH in New York! What a bunch of morons! On a side note, I was watching a Law & Order episode and they were doing surveillance using a Crown Vic taxi and then pounced on the suspect with red flashing lights in the visors pulled down. I suspect they really do in real life.

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The article says they wanted to diversify. Another reason was that it could reach 150 MPH. Show me where a NYC cruiser can reach 150 MPH in New York! What a bunch of morons! On a side note, I was watching a Law & Order episode and they were doing surveillance using a Crown Vic taxi and then pounced on the suspect with red flashing lights in the visors pulled down. I suspect they really do in real life.

NYC buys Impalas, for cryin' out loud. I wouldn't take this as an ominous sign regarding the CV's acknowledged superiority.

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NYC buys Impalas, for cryin' out loud. I wouldn't take this as an ominous sign regarding the CV's acknowledged superiority.

Oh please, Ford left the fricking car on the lots for 15 years. The retail sale of it are virtually null. They need a replacement ASAP, you have the rear whel drive impala coming and with the charger slowly but surely CV will go bye-bye unless for does a complete redesign or replaces it with a new model that doesn't have a tarnished name like most of Ford launch and abandoned cars.

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Oh please, Ford left the fricking car on the lots for 15 years. The retail sale of it are virtually null. They need a replacement ASAP, you have the rear whel drive impala coming and with the charger slowly but surely CV will go bye-bye unless for does a complete redesign or replaces it with a new model that doesn't have a tarnished name like most of Ford launch and abandoned cars.

Pardon, the CVPI, as in the cop car with ballistic inserts on door panels, etc., crash tested at 75mph, and all that.

 

Certainly not the retail Crown Vic, which hardly has enough buyers to justify its existence.

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Pardon, the CVPI, as in the cop car with ballistic inserts on door panels, etc., crash tested at 75mph, and all that.

 

Certainly not the retail Crown Vic, which hardly has enough buyers to justify its existence.

Why doesn't the CV have enough buyers to justifiy its existance? The same reason the ranger doesn't and the same reason that the focus is tumbling in sales? Maybe its the same reason that the Taurus left? Or how about the same reason with the windstar err i mean freestar didn't?

 

Simply because Ford let them die, they abandoned them, they aren't competitive. Ford has never made a competitive mini-van, they don't even try. They put out nothing but a giant piece of crap and then shake their head and are baffled by the terrible sales. They left the sheetmetal virtually the same and changed its name. The crown vic is the same car from the beginning of the 90's and wonder why sales aren't there.

Edited by DCK
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The article says they wanted to diversify. Another reason was that it could reach 150 MPH. Show me where a NYC cruiser can reach 150 MPH in New York! What a bunch of morons! On a side note, I was watching a Law & Order episode and they were doing surveillance using a Crown Vic taxi and then pounced on the suspect with red flashing lights in the visors pulled down. I suspect they really do in real life.

You are the moron! NYC has every kind of road known to man and 150 mff is quite doable. I love these all-knowing opinons based on BS. Live there, drive there and then you might know something about what you're talking about.

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Why doesn't the CV have enough buyers to justifiy its existance? The same reason the ranger doesn't and the same reason that the focus is tumbling in sales? Maybe its the same reason that the Taurus left? Or how about the same reason with the windstar err i mean freestar didn't?

 

Simply because Ford let them die, they abandoned them, they aren't competitive. Ford has never made a competitive mini-van, they don't even try. They put out nothing but a giant piece of crap and then shake their head and are baffled by the terrible sales. They left the sheetmetal virtually the same and changed its name. The crown vic is the same car from the beginning of the 90's and wonder why sales aren't there.

 

 

The Crown Victoria has been substantially upgraded from the early 90s and while they haven't been refreshed externally since 1998, that really isn't that unusual. Ford produced basically the same sheet metal from 79 until 91. Wasn't it 92 when the aero Vic debuted? From there it agained stayed much the same until 98. The dash has undergone minor things as well as the seats and the upholstery. The bigger changes were those not seen from the outside and the ones that matter most. Its received a new frame, suspension changes, steering rack, upgraded engine controls with electronic throttle control , PI heads, etc.

 

Its competitive in terms of driveability and all the attributes that other cars in its class are suppose to have. If you're talking cosmetically, no its basically the same car from 98 visually. However, that is probably one aspect that appeals to the police fleet buyers when expedient body repairs are necessary. On another forum, I asked this question of a few LEOs and there take on the CV was that "its built like a tank" in that it can take a heaping amount of abuse for police work, continuing on where other police cars are too damaged to return under its own power. Too, the CV, as indicated to me by those LEOs, is capable of going in for substantial repairs and be out on the street again in a matter of a couple of days. Easily accessible parts, unformity in the engine design and familiarity allows the CV to continue to be a favored choice.

 

Plus, those who haven't read the report of the Michigan State Police might find it interesting to note that the lighter weight 3.5L Charger was actually edged out in both straightline acceleration and on a road course by a CV Police Interceptor. The Charger with its supposedly better suspension set-up and comparable rated horsepower could not out perform the old Vic. The Crown Victoria is still a surprising car when you put it through its paces. It builds speed quickly, handles flatly, roomy, quiet and gets good mileage for a V8 car. On the street, its torque is appreciable. Its not Hemi quick...but you'd be surprised at how strong it really is.

 

I don't there is no denying the Charger is competent for police work and probably a better choice than the Impala by far. However, it has many miles left to prove itself worthy to step in on the Crown Vic. It is my opinion that Ford does need a replacement sometime in the upcoming future, but just because this agency or that department buys Chargers this year, does not mean they'll be ordering more next year or the year after. The State of NC buys Crown Vics predominantly for the Highway Patrol. Yet they have bought Impalas in the past, Camaros, Durangos, Cherokees and most recently a few marked Tahoes with the police suspension. Charger has a piece of the market now, but only time will show whether it will begin to receive more and more orders each year. I think that public perception of the Crown Vic is much different than those who use them professionally.

Edited by Traveler
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Plus, those who haven't read the report of the Michigan State Police might find it interesting to note that the lighter weight 3.5L Charger was actually edged out in both straightline acceleration and on a road course by a CV Police Interceptor.

 

So we are actually impressed when Ford's V8 eeks out a test over a V6?

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The V6 Charger is all-new, which includes "German Technology" in its five link rear suspension. It has a good unibody chassis, a 250 horsepower V6, its geared lower and weighs a few hundred pounds less than the Crown Vic. The Crown Victoria is rated at 18/25 in mileage and I believe the 3.5 is rated at 19/28, so there is little variation in the mileage. Its not really so much being impressed with the Crown Victoria so much as thinking that a lighter V6 all-new sedan would actually be even a bit slower than the Crown Victoria. The Vic is rated as having more torque, but there's more weight there, as well. On the road course, the CVPI's suspension should have been a liability...but did not betray the chassis. You have a platform that is nearing 30 years old that still can edge out a modern, rear wheel drive sedan with a competent V6 engine.

 

Another example: Take a look at some of the media results from another larger V8 sedan (although FWD) in terms of acceleration. The Cadillac DTS with more horsepower accelerates in the low 7s to 60 mph, mid 15 sec quarter mile times, slalom and skid pad numbers seem to put it on par with the performance-oriented Crown Victorias. The same holds true for the Buick Lucerne. The Crown Vic and Grand Marquis can still be had with competitiveness even if its cladded in a plainer wrapper. It does this with good gas mileage on regular unleaded gasoline.

 

When you put the Crown Vic or Grand Marquis in comparison to a mixture of V6 and V8 cars in its class, it does appear to me that its amazingly holding it own even if I hestitate to say 'impressive'. The only cars relatively of the same size that out accelerates the 4.6 HPP Panthers decisively are the 5.7 Hemi sedans and the 5.3 Impala SS. The Avalon edges it out by a few tenths, as well. The two Northstars mentioned above as well as the Five-Hundred and 3.5 LX cars are either on par or a bit slower in acceleration.

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I was talking to a friend over the weekend who works for the MSP and he says the complaints with the Charger are they are really cramped up front once all the equipment is installed upfront, and it is tight even for him (he's only 5'10") so imagine the 6'4" guys in there.

 

The big thing though was that they have had a few of them have their back windows explode when they drove them over a curb --DCX is working on a fix for that. What he hated on the Charger and many others hate as well is that visibility out of the vehicle is very limited, it has large blind spots which can be very bad in some situations. However overall he likes the HEMI Charger best as a freeway patrol car.

 

He is getting a Tahoe as for what he does as it is the best vehicle for him, but for all around best Police Vehicle he said you can't beat the CV. He also did mention that they had a new Mustang GT that they were testing out.

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The Crown Victoria has been substantially upgraded from the early 90s and while they haven't been refreshed externally since 1998, that really isn't that unusual. Ford produced basically the same sheet metal from 79 until 91. Wasn't it 92 when the aero Vic debuted? From there it agained stayed much the same until 98. The dash has undergone minor things as well as the seats and the upholstery. The bigger changes were those not seen from the outside and the ones that matter most. Its received a new frame, suspension changes, steering rack, upgraded engine controls with electronic throttle control , PI heads, etc.

 

Its competitive in terms of driveability and all the attributes that other cars in its class are suppose to have. If you're talking cosmetically, no its basically the same car from 98 visually. However, that is probably one aspect that appeals to the police fleet buyers when expedient body repairs are necessary. On another forum, I asked this question of a few LEOs and there take on the CV was that "its built like a tank" in that it can take a heaping amount of abuse for police work, continuing on where other police cars are too damaged to return under its own power. Too, the CV, as indicated to me by those LEOs, is capable of going in for substantial repairs and be out on the street again in a matter of a couple of days. Easily accessible parts, unformity in the engine design and familiarity allows the CV to continue to be a favored choice.

 

Plus, those who haven't read the report of the Michigan State Police might find it interesting to note that the lighter weight 3.5L Charger was actually edged out in both straightline acceleration and on a road course by a CV Police Interceptor. The Charger with its supposedly better suspension set-up and comparable rated horsepower could not out perform the old Vic. The Crown Victoria is still a surprising car when you put it through its paces. It builds speed quickly, handles flatly, roomy, quiet and gets good mileage for a V8 car. On the street, its torque is appreciable. Its not Hemi quick...but you'd be surprised at how strong it really is.

 

I don't there is no denying the Charger is competent for police work and probably a better choice than the Impala by far. However, it has many miles left to prove itself worthy to step in on the Crown Vic. It is my opinion that Ford does need a replacement sometime in the upcoming future, but just because this agency or that department buys Chargers this year, does not mean they'll be ordering more next year or the year after. The State of NC buys Crown Vics predominantly for the Highway Patrol. Yet they have bought Impalas in the past, Camaros, Durangos, Cherokees and most recently a few marked Tahoes with the police suspension. Charger has a piece of the market now, but only time will show whether it will begin to receive more and more orders each year. I think that public perception of the Crown Vic is much different than those who use them professionally.

All of those improvements and advantages you mention for the CV are things that would matter only to a true afficionado, which is why the broader market has slipped toward zero. Of the points you made, the "expedient body repair" argument seems the weakest to me. And that is the one area where Ford could have completely saved the market for this car (and kept their police customers while they're at it). If all those under-the-skin improvements are as good as the Panther mafia keeps pointing out - think what it might have done with some style.

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Besides visual styling cues, what other improvements retro-man does the Crown Vic and Grand Marquis need in your view? I ask not being cynical. You say that the improvements made are only for those who have a fondness for the Panther. What other features are lacking in your opinion? I really don't see a lot of things that are not offered on the Panther as opposed to other cars in its class. Stability control or navigation maybe?

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You are the moron! NYC has every kind of road known to man and 150 mff is quite doable. I love these all-knowing opinons based on BS. Live there, drive there and then you might know something about what you're talking about.

 

The only time I've ever seen an NYC road clear up enough to get even to 80-90mph, would be the freeways in Queens and Brooklyn at about 2am on weekdays. Anytime other than that, doing anything above 80 is a big mistake. Being a driver in NYC at least once a week, and having the misfortune of enjoying all the roads of the 5 boroughs, I've seen it all. Drivers in NYC tend to be an eclectic mix of F1-wannabes and old ladies in Buicks, and knowing how utterly inconsiderate and lackadaisical they are when it comes to paying attention to anyone around them, driving fast is impossible most of the time, unless you have a death-wish.

 

I've seen the wrecks on the Jackie Robinson, where you can barely tell that crumbled pile of metal, glass, and blood was once a car. Just two or three weeks ago, I got caught in gridlock on the Belt, only to see it was all caused by rubberneckers gawking at an obliterated BMW M5 that was lying in two pieces on the grass. And I doubt any of them broke 100mph during their last hurrah. I also don't think you appreciate how fast 150mph really is. When you're going 100, and you come around a blind turn, and there's some old lady going 55mph wandering into your lane, both you and her are in intensive care, in a best case scenario. Now, factor in another 50mph, and guess where that leaves you.

 

The roads are too clogged, and drivers are too inconsiderate in the city to ever hit those kinds of speeds, so I don't know where you think you're going to hit 150, and expect to live to tell about it. Now, the Parkway and Rt 80 are a whole other story, if you've got a good radar detector. But those are way out of range of NYC cops anyway.

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Besides visual styling cues, what other improvements retro-man does the Crown Vic and Grand Marquis need in your view? I ask not being cynical. You say that the improvements made are only for those who have a fondness for the Panther. What other features are lacking in your opinion? I really don't see a lot of things that are not offered on the Panther as opposed to other cars in its class. Stability control or navigation maybe?

IT LOOKS AND IS DATED, PLAIN AND SIMPLE!! People want modern cars, that is the reason why the Charger and 300 both double the CV sales and they are mostly retail. Is it so hard to get, leaving a product on the market does nothing but kill it after years of neglict.

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Besides visual styling cues, what other improvements retro-man does the Crown Vic and Grand Marquis need in your view? I ask not being cynical. You say that the improvements made are only for those who have a fondness for the Panther. What other features are lacking in your opinion? I really don't see a lot of things that are not offered on the Panther as opposed to other cars in its class. Stability control or navigation maybe?

From what I read, it must be a very competent - even excellent - platform. Probably little or nothing would need to be changed under the skin. Obviously, the styling is the big one. This is what people who don't study the car, or already own one, see. And it is beyond obvious that those people are no longer interested. Believing, as I do, that it is an excellent platform (the Panther mafia has convinced me of that), this strikes me as a huge waste. Why would Ford squander something that could so easily be made successful?

 

Stability control and navigation? I suppose. Especially navigation - since it would both modernize and "high-end" the interior. An engine option (I emphasize "option") North of 300hp seems to be a requirement too (and I'd add a V6 and maybe a diesel on the other end for taxis and the economy minded as well). But none of that will matter if they don't bring the body and the interior forward out of the Reagan era. Screwin' the pooch yet again.

Edited by retro-man
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The only time I've ever seen an NYC road clear up enough to get even to 80-90mph, would be the freeways in Queens and Brooklyn at about 2am on weekdays. Anytime other than that, doing anything above 80 is a big mistake. Being a driver in NYC at least once a week, and having the misfortune of enjoying all the roads of the 5 boroughs, I've seen it all. Drivers in NYC tend to be an eclectic mix of F1-wannabes and old ladies in Buicks, and knowing how utterly inconsiderate and lackadaisical they are when it comes to paying attention to anyone around them, driving fast is impossible most of the time, unless you have a death-wish.

 

I've seen the wrecks on the Jackie Robinson, where you can barely tell that crumbled pile of metal, glass, and blood was once a car. Just two or three weeks ago, I got caught in gridlock on the Belt, only to see it was all caused by rubberneckers gawking at an obliterated BMW M5 that was lying in two pieces on the grass. And I doubt any of them broke 100mph during their last hurrah. I also don't think you appreciate how fast 150mph really is. When you're going 100, and you come around a blind turn, and there's some old lady going 55mph wandering into your lane, both you and her are in intensive care, in a best case scenario. Now, factor in another 50mph, and guess where that leaves you.

 

The roads are too clogged, and drivers are too inconsiderate in the city to ever hit those kinds of speeds, so I don't know where you think you're going to hit 150, and expect to live to tell about it. Now, the Parkway and Rt 80 are a whole other story, if you've got a good radar detector. But those are way out of range of NYC cops anyway.

My son lives in Bethpage. I live about 130 miles west in Pennsylvania ( I am a Bronx native) and drive there regularly. I find that NY drivers are now no worse than the ones I encounter on the way to NY through Pennsyltucky and New Jersey. Any driver on the phone is an asshole and should not be on the road. But, on the L.I.E., I have witnessed NASCAR speeds by other driver who slalom through traffic in all manner of vehicle. You name it, and they'll speed it.

 

From what I read, it must be a very competent - even excellent - platform. Probably little or nothing would need to be changed under the skin. Obviously, the styling is the big one. This is what people who don't study the car, or already own one, see. And it is beyond obvious that those people are no longer interested. Believing, as I do, that it is an excellent platform (the Panther mafia has convinced me of that), this strikes me as a huge waste. Why would Ford squander something that could so easily be made successful?

 

Stability control and navigation? I suppose. Especially navigation - since it would both modernize and "high-end" the interior. An engine option (I emphasize "option") North of 300hp seems to be a requirement too (and I'd add a V6 and maybe a diesel on the other end for taxis and the economy minded as well). But none of that will matter if they don't bring the body and the interior forward out of the Reagan era. Screwin' the pooch yet again.

My wife and I checked out the Grand Marquis at an auto show earlier this year. She is 5'8 and I'm 5'9.5. We both had a hard time getting behind the wheel because of the seat heigth and location of the door handles. Once in, it felt like my 1969 Galaxie after it was shrunken in a clothes dryer. The ol' Galaxie was much roomier. Now, I know that LE types have used this car for years and have the equipment down to a science, but it is downright puzzling how they do it. Doesn't surprise me that the Charger has negative reports regarding it's body design. One more thing about NYC. They use many types of vehicles for LE and they buy them in lots and use them all over the area. Impalas must be cheap because they are plentiful and are made by an American company. It slayed me when I was in Scotland when I saw their military driving French cars! Local cops use small Ford parcel vans. All the CV needs is a bit larger size in the cabin and a few more horses under the hood, nothing major. Sure, a new body would be nice, but unless it improves safety and other issues they may have, it won't happen. Maybe they should push Ford to help design the replacement and keep the sales positive.

Edited by 156n3rd
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Thanks Wescoen; I couldn't have said it better! And I have been to New York City!

Joe, RELAX. 150 mph is 220ft. per sec. Just think, a moment of distraction and you've gone 300'!

 

I too drive NYC roads although I must admit, when I'm headed to Jersey I take the TappanZee to the Garden State because I have this fear of having a blowout on the Cross Bronx and being mugged by the time I got the jack out! Now when I go out on the Island, I can't imagine doing 80 on the Cross Island, never mind 150. I agree on the traffic issues as a constraint but the road conditions are another factor. Bottom line, what cop ANYWHERE has a need to hit 150?

 

On the subject of the CV, mine turned 213,000 last night. I have a new one on order and as tempting as a loaded 500 was with all the gadgets AND AWD, I just could't see myself doing a 500 mile day with my size 13's jamed into that narrow footwell. Legroom the same? Yes- but you can't beat the comfort of being able to move around a bit. And the CV lets you do that.

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This isn't the first posting following this theme that somehow these "wonder cars" from DCX are going to be the death of the Panther based cars from Ford. I couldn't disagree more. If the Panthers die, it will be because of a lack of attention from Ford, not because of this 1970's inspired junk from Chrysler.

 

As a former law enforcement officer, I have had ample time behind the wheel of patrol cars dating from the 1980's until 2000 from all three of the domestics. I can say with confidence that although the big 3 have never built the perfect patrol car, they've come close. The Dodge Charger is not one of those cars.

 

In the shakeout between the Charger vs the CV, the only place the Dodge is superior is straight line accelleration. However, all the firepower in the world under the hood doesn't mean nearly as much as two other big factors - vehicle dynamics and the skill/confidence level of the driver. The lack of outward visibility in the Dodge, coupled with the horrible driving position place the Charger at a distinct disadvantage to the CV.

 

Add to that the stupid looking back door design of the Charger, which in itself represents a real safety hazard putting a normal suspect in back, much less a combative one and the lustre falls off of the mighty Dodge in a hurry. Memo to DCX: You have not re-created the '69 Polara...

 

From my experience, the Fords were always the most dependable and the most consistent in handling regardless of speed and road input for the most part. The Chevrolets were excellent performers with good lower speed handling, but tended to become floaty at higher speeds. The Plymouth Gran Furys we had in 1988 cornered like they were on rails, had decent accelleration but a turn radius exceeded only by a school bus. The Fords also had the best ride and most comfortable interiors which to an officer means a lot.

 

Some of the legends of Law Enforcement, in my humble opinion...

 

1962 Chevrolet Bel-Air 409

1963 Ford Galaxie

1967 Chevrolet Bel-Air 427

1969 Dodge Polara 440 California Highway Patrol

1986 Ford LTD Crown Victoria 351 (this was the way a squad car should look)

1994 Chevrolet Caprice LT-1

1998-Present Crown Victoria (All American)

 

I don't think Ford should be as concerned with the Charger, given Dodge's legendary reliability. But if and when Chevrolet brings back a RWD V-8 Impala, both had better watch out.

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