Bryan1 Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 It is 11 weeks for Dearborn and 2 weeks for Kansas City. This doesn't mean their is a problem like TTAC said. It is just how long it takes. GM shut down its factories for 21 weeks to retool. Fort Wayne shut down 9 weeks to retool. Dearborn will spent a couple more weeks for a much bigger change and 8 weeks less overall. Big whoop! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 How many people strongly advocating for a V6 diesel in a Half Ton truck would actually go buy one? IMO, the people presenting the case for a diesel do not represent the views and opinions of the majority of buyers. What these people consider would be "nice to see" products may only in fact appeal to a handful of actual buyers and without having proper market research, how can an informed opinion for spending additional resources be justified?. Shouldn't better fuel economy across the whole vehicle line up be a higher priority, reaching as many buyers as possible? If that's the case, then presenting more efficient gasoline solutions would seem to be priority 1. Until Ford comes out and said it intended pursuing a diesel Half Ton,you can bet there's no viable business case for doing it. Ford no doubt constantly reviews the subject, buying trends and feedback from customers - is there something planned for 2018? I'd say it's too far of to call..without seeing and reviewing the '15 F150's reception and sales data next year. sidebar, the diesel in the full size transit is a $6000 premium over the 3.7, and a $4130 over the 3.5 eco..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 sidebar, the diesel in the full size transit is a $6000 premium over the 3.7, and a $4130 over the 3.5 eco..... Ouch! Any MPG numbers yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 sidebar, the diesel in the full size transit is a $6000 premium over the 3.7, and a $4130 over the 3.5 eco..... Ouch! Any MPG numbers yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Ouch! Any MPG numbers yet? Havent seen any yet..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurtisH Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 sidebar, the diesel in the full size transit is a $6000 premium over the 3.7, and a $4130 over the 3.5 eco..... Wow! That's a little more than I expected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Wow! That's a little more than I expected. actually right in line with what I expected....this IMO is diesels biggest stumbling block....$$$$ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 what does Ram upcharge for their diesels, anyone know?... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Don't forget it's not just the engine - you're also paying for a much heavier duty tranny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Don't forget it's not just the engine - you're also paying for a much heavier duty tranny. In the Transit? Does the oil burner use a heavier-duty tranny? I thought it was the same as the 3.5EB since the torque numbers aren't that much different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 what does Ram upcharge for their diesels, anyone know?... It is $2850 over the Hemi, which is $1150 over the base V6. It (and the Hemi) also requires a heavier duty tranny which is $500. So, $4500 over the base V6, or $2850 over the Hemi. So ~$1400 less of a premium than the Transit's diesel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 In the Transit? Does the oil burner use a heavier-duty tranny? I thought it was the same as the 3.5EB since the torque numbers aren't that much different. I guess I was extrapolating from the full sized trucks where the diesel has WAY more torque. I forgot the transit diesel was closer to the 3.5EB power so in that case it should be able to use the same tranny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 (edited) It uses a 6R80, same as in Ranger and it comes off the Livonia line Edited February 3, 2014 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSFan00 Posted February 3, 2014 Author Share Posted February 3, 2014 Hostility aside as to the source here, what is the take rate and sales forecast for the dodge, errr, ram? If Ford did charge an extra 5k for a power stroke king ranch f150, with a target of 40k a year, would the bof brain trust endorse the idea? Isn't the king ranch really a brand/prestige up charge anyway? Wouldn't the press salivate to review it, if only to note that a sane buyer should opt for the ecoboost as best in class at a lower price? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSFan00 Posted February 3, 2014 Author Share Posted February 3, 2014 Better yet, pair it up to a mild hybrid with start stop and see the greenies go wild. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Hostility aside as to the source here, what is the take rate and sales forecast for the dodge, errr, ram? If Ford did charge an extra 5k for a power stroke king ranch f150, with a target of 40k a year, would the bof brain trust endorse the idea? Isn't the king ranch really a brand/prestige up charge anyway? Wouldn't the press salivate to review it, if only to note that a sane buyer should opt for the ecoboost as best in class at a lower price? Depends on the profit per vehicle and the added cost to put the diesel in in the F150. If the reward/risk ratio is rather high, then I think most Ford fans would be all for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoonerLS Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Better yet, pair it up to a mild hybrid with start stop and see the greenies go wild. Greenies go wild over a pickup? Not bloody likely, even if it got infinite miles per gallon and literally saved baby seals. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoonerLS Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 If Ford did charge an extra 5k for a power stroke king ranch f150, with a target of 40k a year, would the bof brain trust endorse the idea? If Ford did that, it would mean someone in Dearborn made a solid business case for it, so I doubt that anyone here would buck it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Hostility aside as to the source here, what is the take rate and sales forecast for the dodge, errr, ram? If Ford did charge an extra 5k for a power stroke king ranch f150, with a target of 40k a year, would the bof brain trust endorse the idea? Isn't the king ranch really a brand/prestige up charge anyway? Wouldn't the press salivate to review it, if only to note that a sane buyer should opt for the ecoboost as best in class at a lower price? Better yet, pair it up to a mild hybrid with start stop and see the greenies go wild. 40k units would represent something like 10% of all F150s. I don't think you would see anything approaching that for a powertrain upcharge on a premium package. Also, pairing diesel engines to hybrid powertrains has proven problematic. Diesels are at their dirtiest when they're first started. Running a duty cycle with several starts would cause emissions issues. Not to mention that both diesels and hybrids are more expensive than conventional ICEs. Pairing an expensive diesel aftertreatment emissions package (that will probably have to be even more robust given the duty cycle) with the additional motors and batteries of a hybrid system? Not cheap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSFan00 Posted February 3, 2014 Author Share Posted February 3, 2014 Maybe, but it depends on the certification regimen. I think diesel hybrids are coming this way. And no one really gets the top end trim f150s to work them. They are status vehicles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 And no one really gets the top end trim f150s to work them. They are status vehicles. Bull! Plenty contractors buy them. Plenty of folks buy them to tow travel trailers. Just because they aren't getting beat up doesn't mean they aren't being worked. I tow a fifth wheel with my Lariat F250...is that not working it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Whereas vans and heavy duty pickup trucks are mostly fleet sale, light duty pickup trucks like F-150 are primarily sold to retail customers in the US. Fleet buyers can crunch full life cycle operating cost relatively easily to see if diesel makes sense for their intended usage and estimated life time (e.g. 100k miles or 200k miles... makes a big difference in your decisions). This is why Ford is smart to attack the diesel market from vehicles that are primarily fleet sales (e.g. Transit and F-350/450/550). The retail customers will be happy with something like 2.7 Ecoboost vs. competition's V8... they don't need to an Excel spreadsheet to tell them something that is cheaper to buy AND cheaper to fuel will result in lower operating costs. When there is an upcharge of $5k or $6k, the math becomes a hurdle and it involves a lot of assumptions that retail pickup truck buyers are not likely to want to process. They know they'll drive xxxxx miles a year but that doesn't mean they care enough that over 5 years and 200k miles, you will come out ahead if only you pay $5k extra up front. It's a much tougher sell and hence why I don't think Ford will be quick to jump into F-150 diesel. They are going to get the Lion V6 ready for EPA and CARB emission... just as a contingency. Plus it is likely that Jaguar Land Rover is paying them to do so. There is no harm in having an EPA/CARB compliant diesel on your shelve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 (edited) What I find amusing about TTAC's noise: the 'code name Lion' stuff. Um. When Wikipedia already explains what the "Lion" diesel is, and where it's used, and how it's been in production for like 8 years now......................... And you're talking about how this engine is going to launch in 2018? That pretty much tells you all you need to know about TTAC's """""scoop""""". Didn't they also had a scoop on F-150 aluminum "delay" that was just 2 weeks longer than regular plant retooling? And I seem to recall another one of their scoop that said F-150 will have 2 frames, one for "regular" duty and one for "weak duty" that will not be fully boxed? Yea... that totally happened. They scoop is worth less than the one at Baskin Robbins. Edited February 4, 2014 by bzcat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 (edited) Maybe, but it depends on the certification regimen. I think diesel hybrids are coming this way. And no one really gets the top end trim f150s to work them. They are status vehicles. - What? There is only one certification regimen. There's no 'depends' about it. - Sure. Diesel hybrids will probably get here at some point between now and a thousand years from now. So if you stick around long enough, you'll be able to tell everyone that you were right. Near term (2014-2016), they're a non-starter. Mid term (2017-2020), they're highly doubtful. And after that who knows? I'm not going to make vague predictions. - Your original suggestion was that diesels would be attractive to King Ranch customers, and then you threw out a 40k figure. 40,000 units represents something like 10% of all F150 sales. Do you think that 10% of all F150 customers would buy *King Ranch diesels*? Edited February 4, 2014 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSFan00 Posted February 4, 2014 Author Share Posted February 4, 2014 VW did bring the diesel hybrid to the LA auto show so technically it's already been shown off here in the near term. Just for fun, since everyone here hates every auto news site, here is a MT ranking of hybrid/diesels, and note which is on top and which is not showing up. I obviously threw the 40K out as a random number; what would it take to justify if the lion's already federalized? My answer would be "not much," and probably closer to 5K annually the first year for various reasons including fuel economy/bragging rights for top end buyers, media coverage of 30mpg truck, and export potential (note below). Ford sure seems to want to own as much space as it can in the light duty pickup market (retail commuter creampuffs as I referenced and commercial markets alike). The lightened (aluminum) F-150 would seem to make it easier to drop a smaller diesel into it, as opposed to the Ram, and still perform well (compared to the ram). I'm talking about a premium model option (with the King Ranch a $50-55k half ton pickup that gets (real world) under 20 mpg 95% of the time). But there are 8-10 other trim levels already I think, and if Ford's going global with the F-150 (not sure) then this would also add flexibility/manufacturing ease for other markets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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