Lincoln 2.3L EcoBoost Horsepower

[NickF1011]

 

Maybe then start importing Mondeo 5-door and station wagon variants from Spain

adding even more sales volume while keeping FoE exports humming....

What would be the profit hit for exporting them instead of producing them in NA? Could be one reason it's not happening. With volume already close to max here with just the sedans, it's unlikely they'll add body styles to the NA lines.

[jpd80]

 

 

What would be the profit hit for exporting them instead of producing them in NA? Could be one reason it's not happening. With volume already close to max here with just the sedans, it's unlikely they'll add body styles to the NA lines.

It's a bit like what's the profit hit on sourcing Transit Connect from Turkey/Europe...

 

Complexity of additional body types may not be conducive to low cost bulk production of sedans, Mondeo 5- door and S/W haven't begun production yet.

And perhaps Ford is positioning off shore operations in the hopes of 1) added efficiency in Europe/Thailand and 2) a Euro and Pacific trade agreements with the US.

 

Not suggesting that this is fact or done deal by any means, maybe something that needs continuing lobbying to achieve.

It would be a neat way to get product that is developed and produced in other regions, reducing costs for FNA.

Edited February 7, 2014 by jpd80

[NickF1011]

 

Complexity of additional body types may not be conducive to low cost bulk production of sedans, Mondeo 5- door and S/W haven't begun production yet.

 

And perhaps Ford is positioning off shore operations in the hopes of 1) added efficiency in Europe/Thailand and 2) a Euro and Pacific trade agreements with the US.

 

Not suggesting that this is fact or done deal by any means, maybe something that needs continuing lobbying to achieve.

It would be a neat way to get product that is developed and produced in other regions, reducing costs for FNA.

I agree it would be good if it can be done without impacting margins. Redundant tooling for limited volume should be avoided whereever possible.

[jpd80]

 

 

I agree it would be good if it can be done without impacting margins. Redundant tooling for limited volume should be avoided whereever possible.

I don't want to get too excited about this or over sell the idea but it could be a possible future strategy.....

[papilgee4evaeva]

 

 

If we are going to play the guessing game, we need to see what the competition is doing. Fiesta St and Focus ST tracks petty closely to what the competitors are offering - e.g. Fiesta ST vs Mini Cooper S, VW Polo GTI (overseas) etc; Focus ST vs. VW Golf GTI, Subaru WRX, Renault Megane RS (overseas) etc.

 

Here is the real question... what does Fusion (nee Mondeo) ST compete with in the market place(s)? How would Ford position it?

 

I don't have the answer for those questions per se but you can see that there is slim pickings in terms of performance model in this size car, outside of luxury brands like BMW/Audi/Mercedes/Lexus version of the M/S/AMG/F models.

 

In one of the ad campaigns, they ran the Taurus SHO against the Audi A6 4.2 in performance. I see no reason that a Fusion S(V)T -- or, if you prefer, MKZ Red Label (?) couldn't be run against an Audi S4.

 

Or, as an alternative, since both Audi and MB are going downmarket with the A3/S3 and CLA-Class (plus AMG), it could be that there's more competition than previously considered.

[2005Explorer]

If the 2.3 becomes available in the Lincoln MKZ I don't see why they would offer it in a Ford Fusion. It is a good way to make people spend more money for the Lincoln if they want a performance option.

[silvrsvt]

It is a good way to make people spend more money for the Lincoln if they want a performance option.

 

A loaded Taurus SHO is nearly 50K...a Performance MKZ would cost about the same or more. There is room for a Fusion ST pricewise.

[2b2]

 

If the 2.3 becomes available in the Lincoln MKZ I don't see why they would offer it in a Ford Fusion. It is a good way to make people spend more money for the Lincoln if they want a performance option.

just-imho,

-- the Z getting the 2.3EB for one of its BASE engines depends on MPG

-- it won't be the top Z engine since we already know that'll be a Nano EB

-- & I doubt they'll offer a 4th engine (barring any [redlabel] nonsense)

[2005Explorer]

 

A loaded Taurus SHO is nearly 50K...a Performance MKZ would cost about the same or more. There is room for a Fusion ST pricewise.

True, but in reality the SHO should also go away when the Taurus and MKS are re-designed. This would put more focus on Lincoln being the "performance" brand if Ford performance models are not available. Most people who want performance don't really care much about "value" unless you lay a good value right in front of them like Ford has done with the current SHO versus MKS EcoBoost.

Edited February 10, 2014 by 2005Explorer

[2b2]

^ yeahBut next time the SHO won't (have to) share the same engine as the MKS-replacement (whatever it's called) or vice-versa

 

thinking the SHO gets the Z-Sport's Nano instead of the big Lincoln's gen2 3.5EB(, capable of Well over 400hp)

[akirby]

Using the 2.3L ecoboost as the top engine in the Fusion and the base engine in the MKZ makes perfect sense.

[jasonj80]

 

 

Here is the real question... what does Fusion (nee Mondeo) ST compete with in the market place(s)? How would Ford position it?

 

I don't have the answer for those questions per se but you can see that there is slim pickings in terms of performance model in this size car, outside of luxury brands like BMW/Audi/Mercedes/Lexus version of the M/S/AMG/F models.

You have to remember in Europe the Mondeo does directly compete with the 3-series, Insignia, C-Class, and A4. Given the ST would compete not the AMG/M but along the lines of the S4, OPC, 335i where there currently is not a Mondeo unit. It could actually give the Mondeo a halo effect given that it is currently seen as a business car, similar to what we look at the old Impala and Taurus. That has somewhat changed in the Euro downturn as MB/BMW/Audi have been aggressively going after that market, businesses are still buying cars in Europe while the retail side of the market is even worse but numbers are being proper up by fleet units. Cheap 3-series and A4's are all over Europe.

[bzcat]

You have to remember in Europe the Mondeo does directly compete with the 3-series, Insignia, C-Class, and A4. Given the ST would compete not the AMG/M but along the lines of the S4, OPC, 335i where there currently is not a Mondeo unit. It could actually give the Mondeo a halo effect given that it is currently seen as a business car, similar to what we look at the old Impala and Taurus. That has somewhat changed in the Euro downturn as MB/BMW/Audi have been aggressively going after that market, businesses are still buying cars in Europe while the retail side of the market is even worse but numbers are being proper up by fleet units. Cheap 3-series and A4's are all over Europe.

 

Mondeo competes with 3-series or A4 on the low end... sure. Company car buyers looking for a BMW 318d may consider a Mondeo 2.2 TDci in Titanium trim an alternative... similar price but much more standard equipment. But it only goes so far. In practice, sales of Mondeo size cars with a non-luxury badge (Passat, 508, C5, Insignia, Avensis, Accord, Mazda6 etc) have largely vaporized in Europe due to various reasons. Company car buyers are looking for cheap acquisition lease and low running costs; they need diesel engines and wagons, not expensive performance sedans. There is a reason why Ford dropped the ST from Mondeo line up a while ago. There is just very little demand for something like that in Europe. Insignia OPC is certainly interesting but it hasn't helped GM sell more Insignia... volume for everyone in this size class continue to shrink other than 3-series, A4, and C-class. It may also surprise you that the biggest market for BMW 335i and Audi S4 is actually the US... by a big margin. Both company sell a lot more of these models with big gasoline engines in the US than in Europe.

 

Ford is better off focusing on luxury edition Mondeo (e.g. the "Lincolnized" Mondeo), which is exactly what they plan to do with Mondeo Vignale. That's really what the market in Europe wants... more luxury features at prices that BMW/Audi/Mercedes won't match.

 

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/ford/mondeo/65830/ford-mondeo-vignale-revealed

 

That being said, the market in the US is different. A Fusion ST will have some halo effect on the regular ST. But will it sell enough to cover the cost of making it available? And will that impact the sales of Taurus SHO? Does Ford choose one or another? Those are all relevant questions. I think ultimately, there is probably only enough room for one Ford performance sedan so if Ford does Fusion ST, it will not renew Taurus SHO and vice versa. But I have been wrong before... I said it was unlikely Ford would offer Fiesta ST in the US if they did Focus ST I'm glad Ford proved me wrong.

Edited February 10, 2014 by bzcat

[akirby]

A 300 HP 2.3L Fusion would not compete directly with a 365 hp SHO.

[2b2]

^ YUP

...A Fusion ST will have some halo effect on the regular ST. But will it sell enough to cover the cost of making it available? And will that impact the sales of Taurus SHO? Does Ford choose one or another? Those are all relevant questions. I think ultimately, there is probably only enough room for one Ford performance sedan so if Ford does Fusion ST, it will not renew Taurus SHO and vice versa. But I have been wrong before... I said it was unlikely Ford would offer Fiesta ST in the US if they did Focus ST I'm glad Ford proved me wrong.

also

the Taurus will be AllNew before the end of next year and imho will have the Nano-EB with even more HP than the gen1 3.5EB

&

Fiesta ST

Focus ST

- - - - - -

Taurus SHO

why should Fusion be the ONLY Ford sedan without a performance model?

[papilgee4evaeva]

^ YUP

also

the Taurus will be AllNew before the end of next year and imho will have the Nano-EB with even more HP than the gen1 3.5EB

&

Fiesta ST

Focus ST

- - - - - -

Taurus SHO

why should Fusion be the ONLY Ford sedan without a performance model?

 

Yeah, why? C'mon, Ford, turn it loose!

[bzcat]

^ YUP

also

the Taurus will be AllNew before the end of next year and imho will have the Nano-EB with even more HP than the gen1 3.5EB

&

Fiesta ST

Focus ST

- - - - - -

Taurus SHO

why should Fusion be the ONLY Ford sedan without a performance model?

 

 

I'm just stating the obvious.

 

Fiesta ST and Focus ST have worldwide volume to offset the smallish US volume. So together, there is enough demand to justify each program.

 

Fusion/Mondeo ST will have almost no appeal outside the US as I explained. Same with Taurus SHO. So if Ford offered either model, it will almost entirely depend on US/Canadian demand, and it's likely that selling both models will cannibalize the US sales of the other and neither one will have enough volume to justify the investment. There is a reason why Chevy SS is the only performance model and there is no plan for a Malibu SS. Ditto Chrysler 300/Charger SRT and no 200/Avenger SRT.

 

Performance models are fun and interesting but they have to add to the profit margin of the entire vehicle line to make financial sense.

 

I think the wildcard here is what Ford will do with MKZ and the 2.3 Ecoboost. Obviously, if would cost relatively little money to make that engine available on the Fusion if you plan on offering it in MKZ. But maybe we are looking at a reprise of Fusion Sport rather than something with a full ST/SVT treatment.

Edited February 10, 2014 by bzcat

[akirby]

 

 

I'm just stating the obvious.

 

Fiesta ST and Focus ST have worldwide volume to offset the smallish US volume. So together, there is enough demand to justify each program.

 

Fusion/Mondeo ST will have almost no appeal outside the US as I explained. Same with Taurus SHO. So if Ford offered either model, it will almost entirely depend on US/Canadian demand, and it's likely that selling both models will cannibalize the US sales of the other and neither one will have enough volume to justify the investment. There is a reason why Chevy SS is the only performance model and there is no plan for a Malibu SS. Ditto Chrysler 300/Charger SRT and no 200/Avenger SRT.

 

Performance models are fun and interesting but they have to add to the profit margin of the entire vehicle line to make financial sense.

 

I think the wildcard here is what Ford will do with MKZ and the 2.3 Ecoboost. Obviously, if would cost relatively little money to make that engine available on the Fusion if you plan on offering it in MKZ. But maybe we are looking at a reprise of Fusion Sport rather than something with a full ST/SVT treatment.

 

ST is the new Sport. New engine, retuned suspension, appearance upgrades - not a full SVT treatment.

[Hugh]

 

ST is the new Sport. New engine, retuned suspension, appearance upgrades - not a full SVT treatment.

What remains to be seen if the SVT name will stick around or if Ford will go with 'RS'.

[papilgee4evaeva]

I think the wildcard here is what Ford will do with MKZ and the 2.3 Ecoboost. Obviously, if would cost relatively little money to make that engine available on the Fusion if you plan on offering it in MKZ. But maybe we are looking at a reprise of Fusion Sport rather than something with a full ST/SVT treatment.

 

I'm cool with that.

[silvrsvt]

 

Performance models are fun and interesting but they have to add to the profit margin of the entire vehicle line to make financial sense.

 

I think the wildcard here is what Ford will do with MKZ and the 2.3 Ecoboost. Obviously, if would cost relatively little money to make that engine available on the Fusion if you plan on offering it in MKZ. But maybe we are looking at a reprise of Fusion Sport rather than something with a full ST/SVT treatment.

 

The thing is that the SHO isn't really setting the sales charts on fire either. I have no idea how many Ecoboost MKS, MKT or Flex's are sold either. The Explorer Sport is too new to count at the moment.

 

With that being said, your forgetting the other wildcard here...the MKX and Edge...I'm sure they'll have the 2.3L EB and are platform mates of the Fusion.

 

I say that a performance Fusion is more likely to happen then not...esp if the costs of the engine are spread around like the traverse 3.5L Ecoboost was

 

 

Edited February 11, 2014 by silvrsvt

[ANTAUS]

Maybe MKZ 2.3L in base (at mid-cycle upgrade), with 2.7L V6 AWD as optional?

 

And this mid-cycle upgrade taking place in about 2 years of course.

 

While Fusion receives the 2.3L as a top engine option since it's already towards the bottom of the competition with it's 240HP?

[2b2]

With that being said, your forgetting the other wildcard here...the MKX and Edge...I'm sure they'll have the 2.3L EB and are platform mates of the Fusion.

 

I say that a performance Fusion is more likely to happen then not...esp if the costs of the engine are spread around like the traverse 3.5L Ecoboost was

:thumbup:

 

I'm just stating the obvious.

 

Fiesta ST and Focus ST have worldwide volume to offset the smallish US volume. So together, there is enough demand to justify each program.

 

Fusion/Mondeo ST will have almost no appeal outside the US as I explained. Same with Taurus SHO. So if Ford offered either model, it will almost entirely depend on US/Canadian demand, and it's likely that selling both models will cannibalize the US sales of the other and neither one will have enough volume to justify the investment. There is a reason why Chevy SS is the only performance model and there is no plan for a Malibu SS. Ditto Chrysler 300/Charger SRT and no 200/Avenger SRT.

 

Performance models are fun and interesting but they have to add to the profit margin of the entire vehicle line to make financial sense.

 

I think the wildcard here is what Ford will do with MKZ and the 2.3 Ecoboost. Obviously, if would cost relatively little money to make that engine available on the Fusion if you plan on offering it in MKZ. But maybe we are looking at a reprise of Fusion Sport rather than something with a full ST/SVT treatment.

but

-- afaik 'our' FiestaST & FocusST are not built in the euro factories

so the savings areN'T as great as "global" may imply (to some)

-- the MKS-replacement will about-definitely use the Nano-EB

so the cost for adding it to the SHO isN'T as great as it may seem (to some)

-- "Mondeo ST will have almost no appeal outside the US" ...maybe in Australia?

depending on what Ford does-or-doesn't do about a 2016+ Falcon

-- "There is a reason why Chevy..."

just-imho GM should NEVER be used as an example of what to DO

[akirby]

Is 270 lb/ft at the bottom of the competition?

[jasonj80]

Is 270 lb/ft at the bottom of the competition?

Camry 5.8

Accord 6.1

Altima 6.2

200 6.4

Malibu 6.4

Optima 6.5

Fusion 6.8

 

Fusion is currently the slowest of the group, while I don't think most people would notice the times it still could use another 35hp. I expect the new 200 to be a bit faster with the nine speed auto.