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RichardJensen

The new Bronco/Ranger/MAP thread

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Forget Wrangler, a Bronco would by necessity be an extension of an existing product line, be that on F150 or some other platform..

On that basis, it becomes an incremental product and not governed by the same parameters as a unique platform.

Similarly, sales of a Bronco are then not conditional on a 4-door version as companion product.

Edited by jpd80

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Personally I would rather see a two door full size Bronco than a small unibody Bronco and by that I mean put a Bronco body on an F150 regular cab chassis.

 

So, a two door expedition then....cause thats what they are...just with an independent rear suspension instead of a solid rear axel. The Bronco never died...it morphed into the expedition...Thats why I think the new Bronco will be mid-size or smaller.

 

I have a feeling that what ever comes out of MAP will be compact. I'm still leaning towards transit connect based, only because I think Ford needs somewhere state side to build them...But these are just my opinions and opinions are like....

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So, a two door expedition then....cause thats what they are...just with an independent rear suspension instead of a solid rear axel. The Bronco never died...it morphed into the expedition...Thats why I think the new Bronco will be mid-size or smaller.

 

I have a feeling that what ever comes out of MAP will be compact. I'm still leaning towards transit connect based, only because I think Ford needs somewhere state side to build them...But these are just my opinions and opinions are like....

 

 

I think the problem with the Expedition line of thought is that the cheapest 4X4 Expedition you can get starts at 48 thousand. A two door Bronco on an F150 chassis with a solid rear axle even in 4WD trim could probably start under 35.

 

I don't have a problem with them making the Bronco a midsize vehicle but I think it would be a waste of time to add yet another midsize uni-body SUV to the lineup. No matter what, a Bronco is going to be a niche product, so I would think it makes since to tailor it to the niche that is going to buy it instead of trying to make it some mass market vehicle in a sea of mass market vehicles. That just sounds like planning to fail to me.

Edited by BlackHorse

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I believe the Toyota FJ Cruiser is being put to pasture...Seems their sales weren't as hot as they wanted. Maybe we need to look at that as an example of a "niche" that didnt end well.

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I believe the Toyota FJ Cruiser is being put to pasture...Seems their sales weren't as hot as they wanted. Maybe we need to look at that as an example of a "niche" that didnt end well.

 

 

The problem with the FJ was that it competed directly with the Wrangler Unlimited but had a higher price tag, required premium fuel and wasn't really a 4 door like the Wrangler Unlimited is. I know, . . . we are all shocked that a Toyota had a high price tag.

 

There are plenty of niche vehicles out there that have been around for a long time, one of them sold by Ford, so it can be done.

Edited by BlackHorse

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I believe the Toyota FJ Cruiser is being put to pasture...Seems their sales weren't as hot as they wanted. Maybe we need to look at that as an example of a "niche" that didnt end well.

It couldn't have helped it's case that it was hideous. It also didn't offer 4 doors, only suicide doors.

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It couldn't have helped it's case that it was hideous. It also didn't offer 4 doors, only suicide doors.

 

 

I personally didn't mind the look of the FJ. I thought it looked pretty decent and with a good grill guard it looked pretty nice. But I still would not have bought one because they wanted too much money for what you got and in 4WD trim the prices really took off when you could get the Wrangler for thousands less apples to apples.

 

Those prices, by the way, have not come down any. A quick peak at carmax revealed the following examples in this area.

 

2007 FJ 2WD, with 99K miles, $18,998

2007 FJ 2WD, with 99K miles, $19,995

2007 FJ 4WD, with 57K miles, $27,998

2007 FJ 4WD, with 81K miles, $21,599

 

To put that into perspective, a brand new 2015 Wrangler Unlimited 4x4 starts at $26,795. It is no wonder the FJ failed in my opinion.

Edited by BlackHorse

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I couldn't care less about demand. People are followers for the most part. They buy something because other people in their circle of influence told them its cool or its the way to go. That is true whether we are talking about cars or cell phones or tennis shoes. It doesn't necessarily mean that an 8 year old FJ with nearly 60K miles on it is really worth 28 grand. It just means there are enough suckers out there willing to pay it. For that matter the resale value on the Jeeps is pretty high too. I know you're going to hit me with the old "something is worth what someone is willing to pay for it". Nah, there's a sucker born every minute is more like it. lol.

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I couldn't care less about demand.

 

If your argument is that the FJ failed because its price was too high, then sky-high prices for used examples does not exactly support that claim.

 

IMO, the FJ was more like Toyota's Thunderbird than it was Toyota's Wrangler. Its platform didn't match its looks, and it wasn't practical enough to sustain demand. You could also compare it to the Honda Element.

 

It was a concept that probably had a strong support among a cadre of Toyota execs, and it was very popular with Toyota fans, but once everyone that thought they were cool bought one, there was no follow-on demand.

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If your argument is that the FJ failed because its price was too high, then sky-high prices for used examples does not exactly support that claim.

 

IMO, the FJ was more like Toyota's Thunderbird than it was Toyota's Wrangler. Its platform didn't match its looks, and it wasn't practical enough to sustain demand. You could also compare it to the Honda Element.

 

It was a concept that probably had a strong support among a cadre of Toyota execs, and it was very popular with Toyota fans, but once everyone that thought they were cool bought one, there was no follow-on demand.

 

 

If there was no follow on demand than used prices would not be so high would they? lol See how that works.

 

 

There is a core group of enthusiasts about the vehicle but it's not large enough to sustain production.

 

 

Anyway, this is not about the failure of the FJ, this is about a potential Bronco and how Ford should approach that idea.

Edited by BlackHorse

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If there was no follow on demand than used prices would not be so high would they? lol See how that works.

 

 

There is a core group of enthusiasts about the vehicle but it's not large enough to sustain production.

 

I should have phrased that better: insufficient follow-on demand for that vehicle at that price.

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4 if you include the minuscule rear one

PT218-35090.gif

Edited by rmc523

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I believe the Toyota FJ Cruiser is being put to pasture...Seems their sales weren't as hot as they wanted. Maybe we need to look at that as an example of a "niche" that didnt end well.

 

Toyota never intended for the FJ to last forever, it was a high margin niche lifestyle vehicle.

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What are You guy arguing about. When is it appropriate to simply say I disagree? and move on.

 

 

 

 

I should have phrased that better: insufficient follow-on demand for that vehicle at that price.

 

 

 

 

If there was no follow on demand than used prices would not be so high would they? lol See how that works.

 

 

There is a core group of enthusiasts about the vehicle but it's not large enough to sustain production.

 

 

Anyway, this is not about the failure of the FJ, this is about a potential Bronco and how Ford should approach that idea.

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Funny how at the very hint of a "Bronco" project all the "experts" declare it a non-starter because two-door SUVs are non-existent.

Ford has plenty of four-door utilities in all shapes and sizes.... perhaps it knows something about a niche market tha we don't?

 

2 door is plausible because Ford is building the vehicle in the US (so no chicken tax). But you are assuming a niche exists... Aside from the Wrangler, there is no other 2 door SUVs for sale in the US. And looking at markets outside the US, 2 door SUVs are equally unpopular. How many 2 door Prado are sold vs. 4 door?

 

The 2 door Prado is so unpopular that Toyota actually had to give it an all new body and 4 doors and call it FJ Cruiser. And even then, it sold in relative low numbers.

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What are You guy arguing about. When is it appropriate to simply say I disagree? and move on.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I thought that's what I did. I have no interest in arguing about the FJ. :headscratch:

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Toyota never intended for the FJ to last forever, it was a high margin niche lifestyle vehicle.

I believe you are right about that. I believe I did read that somewhere in an article reviewing the FJ. It was intended to be a gen 1 and done.

Edited by atomcat68

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I believe you are right about that. I believe I did read that somewhere in an article reviewing the FJ. It was intended to be a gen 1 and done.

Correct, it was a vehicle made to remind people of the FJ40 - a select niche of buyers prepared to pay a premium for it.

and because it shared underpinnings with Prado which goes withTacoma, the vehicles were basically incremental product.

 

A high priced niche product off a corporate platform....

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Correct, it was a vehicle made to remind people of the FJ40 - a select niche of buyers prepared to pay a premium for it.

and because it shared underpinnings with Prado which goes withTacoma, the vehicles were basically incremental product.

 

A high priced niche product off a corporate platform....

 

Wonder if Ford could pull that off or would the minions here at BON label it a useless product?

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Wonder if Ford could pull that off or would the minions here at BON label it a useless product?

 

Depends what it is to me. A 2 door Expedition (Bronco)? Yes, I feel like it'd be a useless product. Though an incremental product, I just don't see it selling well. Sure, you'll have the Bronco enthusiasts, but beyond that, there wouldn't be much of a market for a large 2 door SUV, IMO. Some might point to the Raptor that that vehicle form could be successful, but with that, they're just modifying the existing truck.....a vehicle that's practical already. Oh...and they added the crew cab Raptor, which I believe is the majority of sales....what does that tell you about the sales potential of a 2 door Bronco?

 

All that said, I'm in favor of a T6-based Bronco - both 2 and 4 door, with a "Bronco Truck" tied into the same program. I think that model could be successful. But a large 2-door SUV that'll have to stand on its' own? (Yes, it'd have commonality with F-150 and Expedition, but nameplate wise, it would be on its' own). Not sure about that one...

 

As for other niche products off corporate platforms? I absolutely agree, and think we will and are beginning to see that happening. Ford had to get the core portfolio in order first before moving into smaller/niche markets. That's why we'd have never heard of a potential Bronco return a few years ago, but are now. I mean look at the GT.

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Depends what it is to me. A 2 door Expedition (Bronco)? Yes, I feel like it'd be a useless product. Though an incremental product, I just don't see it selling well. Sure, you'll have the Bronco enthusiasts, but beyond that, there wouldn't be much of a market for a large 2 door SUV, IMO. Some might point to the Raptor that that vehicle form could be successful, but with that, they're just modifying the existing truck.....a vehicle that's practical already. Oh...and they added the crew cab Raptor, which I believe is the majority of sales....what does that tell you about the sales potential of a 2 door Bronco?

 

All that said, I'm in favor of a T6-based Bronco - both 2 and 4 door, with a "Bronco Truck" tied into the same program. I think that model could be successful. But a large 2-door SUV that'll have to stand on its' own? (Yes, it'd have commonality with F-150 and Expedition, but nameplate wise, it would be on its' own). Not sure about that one...

 

As for other niche products off corporate platforms? I absolutely agree, and think we will and are beginning to see that happening. Ford had to get the core portfolio in order first before moving into smaller/niche markets. That's why we'd have never heard of a potential Bronco return a few years ago, but are now. I mean look at the GT.

 

This dives into the determining what selling well means, and if sales are good indicator of the success of a product.

 

 

this is not to say that sales are irrelevant but that the threshold for success is Fluid, and not a solid line that some here perceive it to be.

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Wonder if Ford could pull that off or would the minions here at BON label it a useless product?

 

Knock it off.

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It depends on where the company is financially and what else is in the pipeline (or what should be in the pipeline).

 

If you're recovering from bankruptcy/near bankruptcy and you're trying to shore up your highest volume/highest profit vehicles and add diversity to your lineup then you shouldn't be pursuing these niche vehicles.

 

If you have your core products and platforms in line and you're in a good financial position and you want to pursue niche vehicles that's perfectly fine.

 

Ford had a lot of things to do the last few years - consolidating platforms, updating Mustang, moving F series to Aluminum, bringing TC and Transit here, etc. Shutting down Aussie production. Now they can go after lower volume and more niche vehicles without impacting their bread and butter models.

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