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VW caught cheating on emissions


92merc

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I wonder how long it will take for a couple of lawyers to get a class action suit going for owners whose cars are now worth less.

 

I would imagine that is already in the process. Money-hungry lawyers have likely been working on that all weekend. I can see the lawsuit taking into account several things:

 

1) Lower resale value as you mentioned

2) Lower fuel economy

3) Drivability issues due to power loss

Edited by fordmantpw
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I wonder how long it will take for a couple of lawyers to get a class action suit going for owners whose cars are now worth less.

 

Not even the devalued vehicles but the loss in mpg if the "reflash" causes it. I can't see why they would have done this with exception of getting better mpg. With my F350, people delete the DPF and they gain up to 20% higher mpg BUT it is also more for a better running motor... Hmmmm..

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Not even the devalued vehicles but the loss in mpg if the "reflash" causes it. I can't see why they would have done this with exception of getting better mpg. With my F350, people delete the DPF and they gain up to 20% higher mpg BUT it is also more for a better running motor... Hmmmm..

 

As far as the loss in MPG, I could only see a real issue if it changes the EPA number on the sticker. If it does NOT (which it sounds like it won't), then there should be no complaint as they have been getting better than they should have all along. If it does change the EPA number, then I see much bigger issues.

 

I would love to delete the DPF and EGR on my 6.4L, but $2k for parts plus the chance of getting caught isn't worth it to me.

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As far as the loss in MPG, I could only see a real issue if it changes the EPA number on the sticker. If it does NOT (which it sounds like it won't), then there should be no complaint as they have been getting better than they should have all along. If it does change the EPA number, then I see much bigger issues.

 

I would love to delete the DPF and EGR on my 6.4L, but $2k for parts plus the chance of getting caught isn't worth it to me.

Don't want to go off topic from this thread so I'll just leave a quick comment. I've yet to see ONE person on any of the diesel forums get in trouble via the fed gov't for removing. For me it isn't about mpg.. it's more of warranty with my 15 F350. Warranty is the gamble, not the EPA and I've been following this since 2008 on multiple forums.

 

And you can get it done for about $1,200 if you want to retain the factory exhaust. Ok enough off topic, you can PM me if you want to continue this topic.

 

Back to VW... they are screwed lol.. I bet the Big 3 are all rolling on the floor laughing at them..

Edited by blwnsmoke
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This is how the cheating was exposed... very interesting story :read:

 

What are the chance that VW also installed defeat device to pass European smog test? The people that discovered the cheating were trying to proof that TDI can be actually clean... but inadvertently discovered that VW simply cheated. The inevitable question is if VW also include the defeat software in the EU version of TDI engines?

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-09-19/volkswagen-emissions-cheating-found-by-curious-clean-air-group

 

 

tl:dr version:

 

1. European press reports independent testings show various diesel models polluting far more than EU emission test. This leads to some questions as to whether EU standards and testing regime is just too weak. If these cars can pass the strict CARB test, no reason why it is allowed to emit so much NOx in Europe.

2. International Council on Clean Transportation (ICCT) European director wanted to show EU that 'clean diesel' is possible if only EU will enact tougher standards

3. He came up with idea to road test US-Spec VW against EU emission - assuming it will pass easily.

4. WVU (which conducts the driving test from San Diego to Seattle) were shocked by how much more NOx the cars were emitting "15 to 35 times legal limit".

5. Findings were shared with CARB, which did standard laboratory test and the cars passed. BS meter triggered... :detective:

6. Something didn't add up so CARB and EPA asked VW to explain. :waiting:
7. VW initially said cars needed a software patch... nothing more :whistling:
8. CARB and EPA said "no way", and we are going to de-certify 2016 TDI. :stop:
9. VW realized CARB and EPA were calling its bluff and admits cheating. :cry:
10. So we know US-spec TDI emits more NOx than EU-spec TDI on paper. Does that mean EU-spec TDI emits A LOT MORE NOx than EU 6 emission standards? i.e. deductive reasoning says VW also cheated in Europe.

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In time, people will grasp the absolute hubris and contempt for regulation behind all of this.

 

That's the thing, they had an emission compliant engine but chose to only switch that emission gear and setting on when a test was detected.

Could you imagine if Ford, GM or FCA had done this, the press would be baying for blood ten times louder than now....

 

 

I hope that VW gets what's coming to it, that tVW and other Euro manufacturers are similarly exposed for gaming Euro tests

Europe needs to clean house and prove that it has a valid testing regime that is worthy of harmonization with the USA,

then we can move forward with reciprocal recognition of emission compliance. This could be the catalyst for change...

Edited by jpd80
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It looks like the 2.0L TDI Audi A3 is not part of the recall and has been cleared . It appears that the affected vehicles are the 2009 through 2015 Jetta, the 2010 through 2015 Golf, the 2013 through 2015 Beetle, the 2012 through 2015 Passat, and the 2009 through 2015 Golf Wagon with the 2.0L TDI all built in NA.It seems vehicles built elsewhere are not affected.

 

So maybe VW NA was pulling a fast one with out Wolfsburg knowing, pretty ballsy if they did but I doubt that Wolfsburg was not in the loop. What will be telling is what kind of package Michael Horn (CEO Volkswagen North America) receives if he is turfed over this.

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It looks like the 2.0L TDI Audi A3 is not part of the recall and has been cleared . It appears that the affected vehicles are the 2009 through 2015 Jetta, the 2010 through 2015 Golf, the 2013 through 2015 Beetle, the 2012 through 2015 Passat, and the 2009 through 2015 Golf Wagon with the 2.0L TDI all built in NA.It seems vehicles built elsewhere are not affected.

 

So maybe VW NA was pulling a fast one with out Wolfsburg knowing, pretty ballsy if they did but I doubt that Wolfsburg was not in the loop. What will be telling is what kind of package Michael Horn (CEO Volkswagen North America) receives if he is turfed over this.

Or maybe VW NA inherited in use software via its European models, software designed to beat Euro tests?

It wont take long to verify whether this is a software add to Nth America only or in general use elsewhere.....

 

This will be like multiple colonoscopies...

Edited by jpd80
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Or maybe VW NA inherited in use software via its European models, software designed to beat Euro tests?

It wont take long to verify whether this is a software add to Nth America only or in general use elsewhere.....

 

This will be like multiple colonoscopies...

 

That would be plausible if all 2.0L TDI in NA were affected but they are not and just the vehicles built in NA thus far have been found to have the software defeat.

The stuff built in the EU for the NA market appear to not have the software defeat for emission testing. So at this point it looks like just 2.0L TDI's vehicles built in NA are affected.

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The stuff built in the EU for the NA market appear to not have the software defeat for emission testing. So at this point it looks like just 2.0L TDI's vehicles built in NA are affected.

 

Then how do you explain the difference between EU and NA PCMs?

 

Did VW spec totally different PCMs for EU and NA assembly, even though both products were going to the same market?

 

Did VW have a team reflashing PCMs in NA?

 

And why would you assume that there is no EU defeat in existence, given that it was discrepancies in EU test results that led to the discovery of this defeat in the first place?

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LINK

In Britain and the rest of Europe, all new diesels should have met the Euro 6 emissions standard from September 1

but a recent report by campaigners Transport & Environment (T&E) found just one in 10 complied.

 

One BMW was pumping out more than 10 times the legal limit of nitrogen oxide. If more manufactures are drawn into

the scandal it could lead to millions of cars, which have been bought in Britain over the last six years, being recalled.

 

Greg Archer, T&E’s clean vehicles manager said: “The Volkswagen example is clearly just the tip of the iceberg

and there will be a lot more companies dragged into this.

 

“Exactly the same technology is used in Europe as it is the US, and tens of millions of cars have been sold since 2009.

“That means that there are potentially millions of cars that are being driven illegally. Obviously it is not the drivers’ fault,

but it is likely we will see huge numbers of recalls.”

 

So it would seem that US testing was done to show how much cleaner the American EPA spec car were compared to their Euro versions

My, what a shock the testers must have gotten when they found the cars give similar results to the non-spec Euros.

 

I'm betting that VW is only prepared to admit liability on Nth American product.

 

It's very likely that VW used the same PCM and software for Euro 4,5,6 and adapted it to Nth America EPA and whatever Sth Korea Specifies..

 

Most rest of the world markets, the big ones at least all follow Euro4 or better, so any admission on the Euro side before head office is ready

could be absolute dynamite before VW is ready for the onslaught of enquiries. I suspect that VW will wait for other regional bodies to come after it.

 

 

This is just the controversy GM needs to stay off the front pages for a while...the buzzards finally have another carcass to chew on...

Edited by jpd80
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Michael Horn VW USA at the Passat launch

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmWmYq6eGPQ

 

As per the international media storm coming out today, VW around the world is taking a shit kicking no matter if that market is a diesel market or not.

Every EU market is freaking out on VW Europe and are all starting their own investigations against all the car makers.

 

As I understand this all started from a report that the ICCT did last year showing that almost 100% of the vehicles tested failed http://www.spiegel.de/auto/aktuell/test-mit-dieselautos-euro-6-norm-wird-nicht-erfuellt-a-991662.html

Edited by MKII
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Michael Horn VW USA at the Passat launch

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmWmYq6eGPQ

 

As per the international media storm coming out today, VW around the world is taking a shit kicking no matter if that market is a diesel market or not.

Every EU market is freaking out on VW Europe and are all starting their own investigations against all the car makers.

 

As I understand this all started from a report that the ICCT did last year showing that almost 100% of the vehicles tested failed http://www.spiegel.de/auto/aktuell/test-mit-dieselautos-euro-6-norm-wird-nicht-erfuellt-a-991662.html

Yes as per my post above, the reason the US cars were tested was to confirm that they were much cleaner than the terrible Euro test results.

 

The scope of this disaster is only limited by VW's unwillingness to admit that their diesel PCMs are all programmed similarly.

This is not a one-off US only phenomenon, VW is about to go through hell...and completely of its own making.

 

Winterkorn is front of the line for an Ass Kicking, you cannot imagine that German engineers cooked this up without authority from top brass.

Edited by jpd80
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This makes me wonder what the long term repercussions are going to be for VW....can they afford all the fines they are going to have to pay? How is this going to affect long term product changes?

 

Also say the EPA nails them for a couple billion...what does the US Government do with that money? Pay down the deficit? LOL

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