jpd80 Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 (edited) It also begs the question of other makers doing the same thing...I thought that the makers where "self-certifying"? As for fines, I think part of it as to do with the agency...the EPA carries a bigger hammer vs the NTSB and the DOJ has a bigger one yet. This plays right into their wanting to punish white collar crime as of late also. It brings into question, the depth of auditing, are regulatory bodies simply reviewing data provided or should they be given bigger budgets to go pull cars out of service and check against their own data. One thing's for sure, regulatory authorities have been given a huge wake up call by a small independent authority seeking simple clarification of troubling tests it did on Euro and US cars. Surely a larger body could employ more scrutiny / target test certain brands that are in the firing line, diesel cars / hybrids that don't live up to claims? My thumbnail sketch: 1) USA...... the EPA decides to send all manufacturers a message, instead of levying the maximum fine, it settles at $10K/car, making $5 Billion fine to VW plus another $1 Billion VW spends correctng 500,000 car in Nth America. 2) Rest of the world...10.5 million cars Averaged across all countries with less agenda than the USA, assume fine of $1,000/per car which becomes $10.5 Billion and then cost of reprogramming.. add another $2 billion So what are we up to, $18 billion or so? Yeah, I think that's a good yardstick... Edited September 22, 2015 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 You cannot stop cheating, nor can you hire enough people with enough brains to come up with every conceivable form of cheating. In this instance, the EPA apparently had a huge blindspot: The OBD-II port. If their random test protocol involved using the OBD-II port, then there was no way of detecting this evasion. A similar flaw, in a different direction, was Ford's apparent use of a single brand of diesel fuel when testing the 6.0L PSD. They never ran dirty diesel through the engine, so they had no idea how incredibly susceptible to clogging those new injectors were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 You cannot stop cheating, nor can you hire enough people with enough brains to come up with every conceivable form of cheating. In this instance, the EPA apparently had a huge blindspot: The OBD-II port. If their random test protocol involved using the OBD-II port, then there was no way of detecting this evasion. A similar flaw, in a different direction, was Ford's apparent use of a single brand of diesel fuel when testing the 6.0L PSD. They never ran dirty diesel through the engine, so they had no idea how incredibly susceptible to clogging those new injectors were. Fair comment but ti speaks volume when a small outfit can go out test some car in real world and see big anomalities, perhaps the regulatory authorities need more help with independent labs and auditors doing more spot checks. This is not about putting EPA or manufacturers on the spot but the latest scandal is an example of the extraordinary, a corruption in culture - something we wouldn't expect to see form a company with ethics and high moral standards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 I don't think that will be anywhere near enough...do you? I hope they are forced to sell Audi and Porsche, being associated with VW may not be good for business.. No, I don't think it's enough....at least the numbers I've seen...I mean couldn't the EPA fine be up to $18 Billion on its own? That's just the fine. That doesn't include VW's cost of fixing all the affected vehicles or buyer compensation packages (though, depending on what they do, I suppose the latter could be done via a significant credit toward a new vehicle, so therefore not dipping directly into a large "emergency fund" they're assembling now... And I don't think this is the end of it either.....I think they'll find Euro models are affected too, thus increasing what they'll need to have to weather this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blwnsmoke Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Just read another article and has some good responses from VW. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/vw-cooperating-german-investigation-vehicles-071839997--finance.html After blaming unrelated issues for more than a year, the company finally told U.S. regulators that it installed software that switches engines to a cleaner mode during official emissions testing. The software then switches off again on the road, enabling cars to drive more powerfully while emitting as much as 40 times the legal pollution limit. "Let's be clear about this. Our company was dishonest. With the EPA, and the California Air Resources Board, and with all of you. And in my German words, we have totally screwed up," the head of Volkswagen's U.S. division, Michael Horn, said Monday while unveiling a new Passat model in New York. "Manipulation at Volkswagen must never happen again," Winterkorn said in his video message. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 (edited) But just a minute, German engineers are like Robots - sticklers for regulations and doing things right. So, what the heck happened here, was there an existing non-pollution / maximum efficiency computer tune and they just stuck another emission compliant program over the top of it? Or did someone high up instruct the engineers to do it that way? Get the lawyers in, Asskikin und fingerpointin Edited September 23, 2015 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonj80 Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 However, if dieselgate extends beyond the single 2.0 TDI engine, then all bets are off... What are the odds that Audi's 3.0 TDI V6 also fails emission? If you are betting man, would you put money on VW cheating in gasoline engine emission too? They announced today that the 3.0L TDI used in Porsche and Audi here is also now part of the investigation. it seems the way it worked was if the front wheels are on a dyno and moving and the back were not it knew to go into the I'm a clean engine mode vs the I'm gonna spew out harmful fumes and kill people, though at least this time the Germans were spewing harmful fumes at people it was slow... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 (edited) Autoblog raises another interesting issue: http://www.autoblog.com/2015/09/22/taxpayers-wasted-51-million-on-vw-diesel-credits/ Taxpayers wasted $51 million on VW diesel credits Edited September 23, 2015 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 Maybe the answer is to stop manufacturers self auditing and have independent accredited third party labs do tests including some outside the official test cycles.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpvbs Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 I wonder if other manufacturers figured out what VW was doing? It seems with pickups at least, Ford buys a fleet of their competitors trucks and disassembles them and figures out exactly how and why things are the way they are. Didn't some other manufactures wonder about VW "clean diesels" and try to figure out how they were able to make it work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 I wonder if other manufacturers figured out what VW was doing? It seems with pickups at least, Ford buys a fleet of their competitors trucks and disassembles them and figures out exactly how and why things are the way they are. Didn't some other manufactures wonder about VW "clean diesels" and try to figure out how they were able to make it work? If it's coded into the software it's not necessarily that simple Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 Original testing in Europe, just an excerpt...good read. LINK The vehicles were tested as part of the ADAC EcoTest, following the current legislative test procedure – the New European Driving Cycle (NEDC) – as well as the Worldwide Harmonized Light Vehicles Test Cycle (WLTC), which is scheduled to replace the NEDC in the EU from 2017 on. All vehicles tested met the Euro 6 nitrogen oxide emission limit of 80 milligrams per kilometer (mg/km) in the NEDC. But only ten out of the 32 cars met the same limit in the more realistic WLTC. “On average, the nitrogen oxides emission level in the new test cycle was more than double the Euro 6 limit value”, says Dr. Peter Mock, Managing Director of ICCT Europe. The highest emission levels in WLTC were found for a Volvo (14.6 times the limit), a Renault (8.8 times the limit) and a Hyundai (6.9 times the limit) vehicle. A BMW model had the lowest emission level (70 percent below the Euro 6 limit). “The results indicate that the implementation of nitrogen oxides control technologies by a few manufacturers is delivering acceptable results over both cycles. Other manufacturers seem to be focusing on meeting emission limits over the current test cycle while neglecting real-world operating conditions”, says Dr. Vicente Franco, a researcher at the ICCT and co-author of the study. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blwnsmoke Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 (edited) Volkswagen CEO Resigns Amid Emissions Scandal http://www.foxbusiness.com/business-leaders/2015/09/23/volkswagen-ceo-resigns-amid-emissions-scandal/ “As CEO I accept responsibility for the irregularities that have been found in diesel engines and have therefore requested the Supervisory Board to agree on terminating my function as CEO of the Volkswagen Group,” Winterkorn said in an announcement. “I am doing this in the interests of the company even though I am not aware of any wrongdoing on my part.” He also expressed shock that “misconduct on such a scale was possible in the Volkswagen Group.” Edited September 23, 2015 by blwnsmoke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 Volkswagen CEO Resigns Amid Emissions Scandal http://www.foxbusiness.com/business-leaders/2015/09/23/volkswagen-ceo-resigns-amid-emissions-scandal/ "I am doing this in the interests of the company even though I am not aware of any wrongdoing on my part." Sepp Blatter? Is that you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lfeg Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 Going back a few posts - The EPA does not use the OBD II port in their compliance assessments. It is used in many state inspection/maintenance programs. And as an aside, there is a wealth of information the average person can access from the OBD II port with some simple devices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 (edited) We're still not getting the full picture from VW, it is only admitting defeat device software was used from 2009. I bet that if enough checks were done, it could be proved that VW was gaming Europe and the EPA for much longer. Any time is a computer that interacts with the on board ECU via an OBD port or diagnostic port, there is an opportunity for the on board ECU to detect an audit or test cycle is about to begin..... So, how far back do the regulators and auditors want to take this, it's now easy enough to check and spot if games were being played. An if at least one upstanding high profile European manufacturer engages in this practice, you can bet that there will be others Edited September 23, 2015 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 (edited) There was no reason to cheat before 2009. VW diesels passed CARB's LEV I (and EU4) standards - the allowable NOx levels were not especially challenging because diesel had a higher allowable limits than gasoline. The bar was moved significantly higher in 2007 model year when CARB LEV II came into effect and diesel and gasoline both had to meet the same tough NOx emission. VW stopped selling diesel in California for 18 months while they tried to make their 2.0 TDI engine pass the new CARB emission. Now we know they spent the better part of that 18 month working on the defeat code in the software... This is all you need to know... VW is the only car company to make a CARB LEV II compliant diesel (or so we thought) without urea injection. The 2009-2014 2.0 TDI use exhaust gas re-circulation (EGR) instead of urea injection. In 2015, VW switched the 2.0 TDI to urea as well, perhaps sensing the gig was up... but reportedly, the 2015 model is also unable to meet CARB emission - it wasn't clear if ICCT had tested the pre-2015 VW or the 2015 VW. The only other company that sold engine using EGR instead of urea was Navistar... and that nearly bankrupted the company when EPA fined them for not meeting truck emission standards and forced them to recall all the trucks. Honda, Mazda, and Nissan all tried to replicate what VW did with I4 diesel using EGR instead of urea and none of them could come close to meeting the NOx emission and still deliver reasonable level of NHV, drivablility, and durability. BMW, Mercedes, Ford, FCA, and GM were able to meet CARB emission with I4 diesel using urea injection. But that's generally a much more expensive solution. Edited September 23, 2015 by bzcat 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
630land Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 (edited) Check Autoextremist site for more fun stuff about VW. Head writer says "VW is going down", but others comment that most US buyers are not going to care at all. But some TDI fan boys are dissappointed and there is one suing VW from Chicago. Good thing Ford didn't bother with diesels for the US!! Edited September 23, 2015 by 630land Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolt in blue Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 Good thing Ford didn't bother with diesels for the US!! While it is looking more and more like Ford made the right decision to not build a small diesel, if they have a small diesel ready that performs over 30% better than the equivalent gas model that meets CA and US requirements without cheating, it could be the perfect time to introduce one on a model or two. VW has demonstrated that there is a decent number of Americans that want diesels and if this recall severely damages them (or at least their image here), it could create an opportunity for someone else to pick up the diesel slice of the market here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordtech1 Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 I really laughed out loud on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 And here come the lawyers. Law firms, likely salivating since news of Volkswagen’s diesel-emissions deceit first broke last week, have begun firing a barrage of class-action lawsuits against the company. This completely expected happening comes on the heels of the U.S. Department of Justice opening a criminal investigation into VW’s conduct (as well as the state of California and other municipal entities), the prospect of massive fines from the EPA, andthe stop-sale of all TDI diesel models with VW’s four-cylinder engine in the U.S. and Canada. We’ve received notice of no fewer than five class-action lawsuits, and Automotive News reports that nationwide more than 25 suits have been filed since Friday. http://blog.caranddriver.com/oh-lawd-firms-trip-over-one-another-filing-class-action-lawsuits-against-vw/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 https://twitter.com/JElvisWeinstein/status/646822102444584961 I just saw a Volkswagen Jetta look around to see if anyone was watching, then dump two quarts of oil on a flower bed. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 And here come the lawyers. http://blog.caranddriver.com/oh-lawd-firms-trip-over-one-another-filing-class-action-lawsuits-against-vw/ Stock warning: VW - Sell Vaseline - Buy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 http://thechive.com/2015/09/23/after-cheating-on-emission-tests-volkswagen-gets-the-internets-wrath-10-photos/#.kupbvb:Y2KN This is just the beginning... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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