New Getrag Mild hybrid technology.

[Biker16]

http://www.getrag.com/en/products/hybriddrive/hybriddrive.html

 

 

 

7HDT300. The Getrag HybridDrive 7HDT300 is the hybridized version of the DCT300 Powershift transmission. The seven-gear transmission offers scalable hybridization from mild hybrids to plug-in architectures capable of pure electric driving. Depending on the level of hybridization, there are different power levels of the electric traction motor available.

• The mild-hybrid version of the 7HDT300 is equipped with an 15 kW electric traction motor based on a 48 V system. With this hybrid level pure electric driving of up to 20 km/h (12 mph) is possible and fuel improvements of 15 to 20% in the NEDC are achievable.

• The full-hybrid version uses a 40 kW electric traction motor allowing pure electric driving of typically up to 50 to 60 km/h (31 to 37 mph). Such a full-hybrid version enables fuel improvements of 24% up to 30 % in the NEDC compared to the conventional version.

• Plug-In Hybrid functionality is reached by applying a more powerful electric traction motor with a peak power of more than 75 kW. This enables pure electric driving with a maximum speed of more than 130 km/h (80 mph). Depending on the overall battery system fuel improvements of up to 80 % in the driving cycle compared to the non-hybrid version are possible.

With the new actuation system for dual clutch and for gear shifting, the hybridization is realized without any additional auxiliary hardware component; i.e., unlike some other hybrid drive systems, the 7HDT300 hybrid transmission does not need any additional actuation to enable the hybrid functionality. An integrated electric on-demand oil pump from the the 7DCT300 provides the oil-cooling in a compact overall design.

All hybrid versions of the 7DCT300 are based on an axial parallel high-speed traction motor to realize a compact installation space and a high power density. The transmission integrates the same type of high-speed e-motor as for the other hybrid versions of the company’s planned six-speed 6DCT150 and seven-speed 7DCT500.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGGlfiEecWk

 

 

 

[RichardJensen]

Hmm. Wonder if that's one of the transmissions that'll be built in Mexico.

[fordmantpw]

Hmm. Wonder if that's one of the transmissions that'll be built in Mexico.

 

I was wondering the same thing. Seems like this may take a lot of complexity out of adding a hybrid option to an existing platform.

Edited October 19, 2015 by fordmantpw

[akirby]

Is this a wet or dry clutch?

[Biker16]

Is this a wet or dry clutch?

wet!

[RichardJensen]

You know, it seems like one of the problems with the dry clutch DCTs was that they occasionally became wet DCTs.

[lfeg]

And wet clutches have completely different wear characteristics than dry. And much better predictability of performance over the life of the friction material.

[RichardJensen]

How interesting....

 

In the various hybrid modes, the DCT takes advantage of the fact that the gears are on separate shafts to send out electric power on one shaft at the same time that motor power is being sent out on the other (see video at :53 mark).

 

This would suggest that the transmission does not function at all like a manual in hybrid mode, being more like a CVT, with respect to the ratio between the final drive RPMs and the engine flywheel RPMs.

[Biker16]

How interesting....

 

In the various hybrid modes, the DCT takes advantage of the fact that the gears are on separate shafts to send out electric power on one shaft at the same time that motor power is being sent out on the other (see video at :53 mark).

 

This would suggest that the transmission does not function at all like a manual in hybrid mode, being more like a CVT, with respect to the ratio between the final drive RPMs and the engine flywheel RPMs.

 

the difference From the current eCVT is the use of one electric motor vs the dual motor configuration.

 

This single motor has to be able to spin faster up to 20,000 RPMs.

 

you can Also play with the Ratio between the Motor/Generator and the gears, to fit the need of each application.

 

A few month ago I proposed a more flexible hybrid architecture that can better match the one size fits all package we have today.

 

With this setup, you can scale from using multiple ICEs from the 1.0 up to the 2.7. any engine <220ft/lbs of Torque that can bolt up to the 7DCT300.

 

You can also scale up the Motor/Generator to meet the need of the both small cars, large cars and CUVs.

 

My concerns are how it will perform vs, the eCVT today? There are more limitations to smoothness and refinement of the Switch between the M/G and the ICE.

 

How does the the system wear with what amounts to a 3rd clutch. how complex will this software have to be?

[RichardJensen]

I think you're getting far too excited about this transmission.

 

This is, in some ways, a less efficient solution than the HF35.

 

In hybrid mode, only two of this transmission's seven gears are being used. The rest are just so much rotating mass. That's not an issue with the eCVT, which utilizes the entire planetary gearset regardless of electric-only, hybrid, or gas-only function (in gas-only mode, the eCVT functions much like a conventional automatic).

 

Secondly, the additional 'motor/generator' on the eCVT is, as the name implies, a substitute for the alternator, so it's not as though the eCVT makes the overall powerpack materially more complex than one fitted with this system.

 

---

 

I do not think that this system is as efficient as eCVT, but it is undoubtedly more efficient than a straight transmission, and seems a likely path toward CAFE compliance for smaller cars.

Edited October 19, 2015 by RichardJensen

[jpd80]

But unlike the HF35, the Hybrid powershift does not require a second electric motor to generate the CVT effect.

I wonder how this plays out in losses due to rotaing mass versus less drain on electric side....

 

The future holds interesting possibilities....

[YT90SC]

They can't fix the DPoS-6. There are a lot of 15's now hitting repair bays. There are currently 17k clutches on back order with a minimum 6 week back log. In addition seal/hardware kits and rear main seals are also on back order now till early December. I would think its time to part ways with Getrag like they did with Navistar, rather than risk adding further complexity to a proven thorn in their side.

 

Richard you are right, a lot of the EARLY issues with the dry clutch appeared to be that they became wet from input seal failures, and/or software issues. However the real issue now is dust and the inability to get it out of the clutch housing compounded by a fragile TCM that is bolted to a hot vibrating transmission.

[jpd80]

They can't fix the DPoS-6. There are a lot of 15's now hitting repair bays. There are currently 17k clutches on back order with a minimum 6 week back log. In addition seal/hardware kits and rear main seals are also on back order now till early December. I would think its time to part ways with Getrag like they did with Navistar, rather than risk adding further complexity to a proven thorn in their side.

Now that's scarey to know....and people wonder if Powershift is causing Ford grief with selling Focus..

 

Richard you are right, a lot of the EARLY issues with the dry clutch appeared to be that they became wet from input seal failures, and/or software issues. However the real issue now is dust and the inability to get it out of the clutch housing compounded by a fragile TCM that is bolted to a hot vibrating transmission.

 

Once word gets out about continuing issues with Focus Powershift, I think it's going to get hard

for Ford to keep selling it....Deserved or not, when buyers think P/S is a problematic transmission

you can kiss goodbye to sales..

Edited October 20, 2015 by jpd80

[RichardJensen]

But unlike the HF35, the Hybrid powershift does not require a second electric motor to generate the CVT effect.

 

The second electric motor in the HF35 replaces the starter & alternator so it does not exactly add complexity to the overall powertrain.

[fuzzymoomoo]

They can't fix the DPoS-6. There are a lot of 15's now hitting repair bays. There are currently 17k clutches on back order with a minimum 6 week back log. In addition seal/hardware kits and rear main seals are also on back order now till early December. I would think its time to part ways with Getrag like they did with Navistar, rather than risk adding further complexity to a proven thorn in their side.

 

Richard you are right, a lot of the EARLY issues with the dry clutch appeared to be that they became wet from input seal failures, and/or software issues. However the real issue now is dust and the inability to get it out of the clutch housing compounded by a fragile TCM that is bolted to a hot vibrating transmission.

Good to know. Soooo not regretting getting a manual now!

[jpd80]

 

The second electric motor in the HF35 replaces the starter & alternator so it does not exactly add complexity to the overall powertrain.

 

 

Edit,

Never mind, I see what you mean, D'oH.

Edited October 20, 2015 by jpd80

[RichardJensen]

First of all, I don't think you need both motors to create the CVT. In the diagram of the HF35 I've attached, you'll notice that the CVT effect is created by having a generator attached to the sun gear. The ratios on the intershaft (which receives power from one of the electric motors) are fixed. The only opportunity to vary the speed of the output shaft relative to the engine's input shaft is in the planetary gearset.

 

 

Secondly, I doubt that the motor hooked up to the Getrag system could work as a starter. It might be able to function as a generator by freewheeling parasitically while the engine spins the transmission assembly, but I don't think you're going to reduce the vehicle to one engine + one motor

[jpd80]

Yeah, I get it now Richard, Getrag assumes the engine has starter Alernator

where as Ford included it with the HF35 as a second motor.

 

Also, agree with HF35 being more pure/less complex than the DSG hybrid.

Both work with scales of economy based on respective conventional transmission builds.

[Biker16]

I think you're getting far too excited about this transmission.

 

This is, in some ways, a less efficient solution than the HF35.

 

In hybrid mode, only two of this transmission's seven gears are being used. The rest are just so much rotating mass. That's not an issue with the eCVT, which utilizes the entire planetary gearset regardless of electric-only, hybrid, or gas-only function (in gas-only mode, the eCVT functions much like a conventional automatic).

 

Secondly, the additional 'motor/generator' on the eCVT is, as the name implies, a substitute for the alternator, so it's not as though the eCVT makes the overall powerpack materially more complex than one fitted with this system.

 

---

 

I do not think that this system is as efficient as eCVT, but it is undoubtedly more efficient than a straight transmission, and seems a likely path toward CAFE compliance for smaller cars.

 

In highway Cruising the system is more efficient than the ECVT, because the ICE can directly drive the Wheels, something the ECVT cannot do.

 

http://eahart.com/prius/psd/

 

THe ECVT will likeley perform better in the City becuase the eDCT is really a electric assist Dual Mode as opposed to a integrated Gas Electic system like The ECVT which cannot operate on the ICE alone.

 

First of all, I don't think you need both motors to create the CVT. In the diagram of the HF35 I've attached, you'll notice that the CVT effect is created by having a generator attached to the sun gear. The ratios on the intershaft (which receives power from one of the electric motors) are fixed. The only opportunity to vary the speed of the output shaft relative to the engine's input shaft is in the planetary gearset.

 

 

Secondly, I doubt that the motor hooked up to the Getrag system could work as a starter. It might be able to function as a generator by freewheeling parasitically while the engine spins the transmission assembly, but I don't think you're going to reduce the vehicle to one engine + one motor

 

 

Start/stop starters are incrementally more expensive than traditional Starters. Command a $300 premium over non Start stop.

 

 

The Starter would be replacing a more powerful and expensive up to 40KW MG1 motor, which is reduction in cost and complxity, becuase the MG! is what drives the CVT, and behaves as the alternator.

 

I do think the software of The eDCT will be more complex than the ECVT.

[RichardJensen]

 

In highway Cruising the system is more efficient than the ECVT, because the ICE can directly drive the Wheels, something the ECVT cannot do

 

The ICE directly drives the wheels in the HF35. There is a complete mechanical connection through the ring gear and the intershaft to the differential. Note the diagram above.

 

I don't understand the rest of your post.

 

Surely you anticipate that the starter used in conjunction with the hybrid DCT will be start/stop enabled.

 

And certainly, you cannot say categorically that the starter/generator in the HF35 is more expensive or more complex than the combined cost of a starter and alternator.

 

Finally, the primary motor in the HF35 transaxle would not be more or less powerful/expensive than a comparable motor in the hybrid DCT as both motors would be required to provide similar power in similar applications (that is, if you want to power a vehicle up to 80MPH in electric only mode, you need so many watts of power, regardless of whether it's coming through the HF35 or this new design).

 

If you want to do a mild hybrid that does little more than store a bit of braking energy for a bit of assistance with acceleration, yes, you will be able to get by with a small motor, but you're also going to get minimal FE gains (viz. the GM mild hybrids).

Edited October 20, 2015 by RichardJensen

[bzcat]

Here is a thought... maybe Ford is preparing the DCT hybrid transmission for heavier/bigger vehicle application.

 

I see no real advantage of switching from eCVT to DCT in small and midsize cars. But we know eCVT has an upper limit in how much torque it can handle and doesn't seem to do very well in vehicles that weight more. It seems obvious that Ford (and everyone else) will need some kind of solution to midsize and bigger hybrids as electrification of the entire fleet is inevitable. Perhaps this DCT is the answer to things like next generation Edge and Explorer PHEV which will no doubt be part of the development program.

[RichardJensen]

Maybe with the 7DCT500--the others seem to have torque ratings below the HF35.

 

At the same time, I think one of the issues with the 2 ton hybrids is the amount of weight added by the number of batteries needed to provide any useful hybrid functionality which sort of turns into a vicious circle.

Edited October 20, 2015 by RichardJensen

[Anthony]

They can't fix the DPoS-6. There are a lot of 15's now hitting repair bays. There are currently 17k clutches on back order with a minimum 6 week back log. In addition seal/hardware kits and rear main seals are also on back order now till early December.

 

 

Holy guacamole, that's practically a month's worth of Focus sales. I had no idea it was THAT bad.

[jasonj80]

 

 

Holy guacamole, that's practically a month's worth of Focus sales. I had no idea it was THAT bad.

I'm thinking there must be some powertrain changes on the 2017 Focus, as there a ton of '15+ Styled Foci running around in and out of the pilot plant all the time for the past few weeks, was about 15 on I94 coming in from Ann Arbor on Sunday night all driving in their line with their M-Plates.

 

I'm assuming the '17 Escape and Fusions/MKZ will start appearing soon with the Job 1 for those in Late March and Early April. LA showing for Escape and MKZ, Detroit for Fusion (and Fusion ST?)

Edited October 20, 2015 by jasonj80

[fuzzymoomoo]

I'm thinking there must be some powertrain changes on the 2017 Focus, as there a ton of '15+ Styled Foci running around in and out of the pilot plant all the time for the past few weeks, was about 15 on I94 coming in from Ann Arbor on Sunday night all driving in their line with their M-Plates.

 

I'm assuming the '17 Escape and Fusions/MKZ will start appearing soon with the Job 1 for those in Late March and Early April. LA showing for Escape and MKZ, Detroit for Fusion (and Fusion ST?)

Fusion TT builds have already come off the line at FRAP, and the ones that are out in the open have camo on them