Xbar Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 (edited) Posted at 11:55pm 10-25-15. Edited October 26, 2015 by Xbar 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trailfndr Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 The so called Strike Deadline was nothing more than smoke and mirrors to make the membership believe that a deal was not already done. Probably been done for weeks. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caustic Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 The so called Strike Deadline was nothing more than smoke and mirrors to make the membership believe that a deal was not already done. Probably been done for weeks. Why are most of you so negative? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decker Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 Why are most of you so negative? How long have you been a UAW member? Decker 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ktp1989 Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 (edited) I have been a UAW member for almost 27 years and I could care less if it's a legit threat or a fake threat to strike...If we don't like the deal we vote it down and they go back to the table. A strike does nothing good for either side so as long as they negotiate and we get a fair deal in the end, I could care less...All the other stuff is just stuff. Bring it to us, we vote, it's passes or fails and we move on. After the situation with Chrysler I am sure they are aware that GM/Ford do not have 45% two-tier so it will take a strong offer...we will make the decision if it's strong enough. All the rest of that junk means nothing. Edited October 26, 2015 by Ktp1989 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmooret Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 AMEN from an LAP'er on one thing. We don't have a 45% tier two workforce and legacy employees will be the ones to vote in this contract. If they don't give us a strong raise like they did tier two employees at FCA they can watch us vote it down too. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caustic Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 How long have you been a UAW member? Decker UAW for a collective 4 years, almost two years with Ford. I know where you are going with this Decker, and with all due respect I'm going to ask you this time to please keep your long winded conspiracy theory drivel to yourself. Many of your posts Decker I happen to like reading, some sound not so much. You have obviously a long history and quite a bit of knowledge, wouldn't that be better served to maybe help educate people rather than join the peanut gallery conspiracy crowd? The union like any organization with influence will have assholes trying to take advantage if their position, but I will not believe everyone is corrupt and trying to rape the membership. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dozerman Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 UAW for a collective 4 years, almost two years with Ford. I know where you are going with this Decker, and with all due respect I'm going to ask you this time to please keep your long winded conspiracy theory drivel to yourself. Many of your posts Decker I happen to like reading, some sound not so much. You have obviously a long history and quite a bit of knowledge, wouldn't that be better served to maybe help educate people rather than join the peanut gallery conspiracy crowd? The union like any organization with influence will have assholes trying to take advantage if their position, but I will not believe everyone is corrupt and trying to rape the membership. UAW for a collective 4 years, almost two years with Ford. I know where you are going with this Decker, and with all due respect I'm going to ask you this time to please keep your long winded conspiracy theory drivel to yourself. Many of your posts Decker I happen to like reading, some sound not so much. You have obviously a long history and quite a bit of knowledge, wouldn't that be better served to maybe help educate people rather than join the peanut gallery conspiracy crowd? The union like any organization with influence will have assholes trying to take advantage if their position, but I will not believe everyone is corrupt and trying to rape the membership. yep your right , not everyone , just 99%. i have been around for 38 and its the worst i've ever seen it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lastmanstanding Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 I will vote NO on any contract that doesn't add money to the Life Income Benefit........... The people that are waiting in line to retire, or will retire under the new contract, have given up 10+ years of no raise, and no cola. At this point, they should get more from a union that has collected their dues and raised those same dues, without skipping a beat. The only thing a person waiting to retire gets in this contract is a piece of paper, from The UAW, that asks if they will pay dues as a retiree. It will be a NO vote from me......... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decker Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 (edited) caustic, I guess I should have put more meaning in my question? After the last 3 or 4 contracts of reduction after reduction of benefits and even opening a contract without sending the decision to open or not open the contract to the highest authority. Yes I guess my question was based on the downward spiral I`ve seen become the proof for my non trust of the IUAW. So my question may have been better put like this, Why would you generalize by stating "why are most of you so negative?" or.. Have you had the time to see first hand what the last 3 or 4 contracts have brought? or... Have you experienced the last ten or more years of no hourly increase which not only effects your current weekly earnings but, it effects the life income benefit? or...Have you been through helping some 1400 members that got laid off during the bad times for the company? or... Have you been a member during the last 4 or 5 years (and counting) of record profits for the company that the membership contributed monetarily too (reduction in benefits) during the bad times and continue to produce the record number of products, that make all those years of record profits? As for my conspiracy theory drivel, I realize that facts can be seen in many different lights or angles. Is it a conspiracy that the IUAW used the same approach with GM as with FCA? Strike dead lines the same? The tentative agreement with the same timing? It is even being referenced as a very similar approach in the press. caustic, we do agree on a couple different points you have made. First, I do agree that not all can be corrupt and for sure not all are rapists. As for using "all" that can be seen as a very big generalization so, I would add if you have had the privilege to serve a membership as an e-board member then you will understand when I state that most not all locally elected or appointed Rep`s and the Regional Rep`s that have been pull up the ladder from a local and for sure all the IUAW appointee`s know the pecking order. So the mid level IUAW Rep`s may not agree with everything that comes down the pipe from solid house but, they will not be out spoken against anything that the incumbent caucus is pushing. It`s called self preservation. Yes we agree that there are assholes using their influence to take advantage of the benefits of their positions. On the board at this company or that company or a trustee of this fund or that fund and not to mention the IUAW Rep`s moon lighting as consultants. As for the peanut gallery..... I got to sit on the floor of a constitutional convention, contract convention and at many regional get together`s, many as an instructor. I found out first hand that not every time but, most times the peanut gallery was the membership that were present, the kings and queens were those at the big long tables being waited on by those Regional and IUAW appointee`s.... You are correct, I do ramble with the best of them. Thank G-d for those FCA members that made the IUAW do their J-O-B. Hopefully GM and Ford members will take their lead and do the same. Decker Edited October 27, 2015 by Decker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lastmanstanding Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 (edited) caustic, I guess I should have put more meaning in my question? After the last 3 or 4 contracts of reduction after reduction of benefits and even opening a contract without setting the decision to open or not open, the contract to the highest authority. Yes I guess my question was based on the downward spiral I`ve seen become the proof for my non trust of the IUAW. So my question may have been better put like this, Why would you generalize by stating "why are most of you so negative?" or.. Have you had the time to see first hand what the last 3 or 4 contracts have brought? or... Have you experienced the last ten or more years of no hourly increase which not only effects your current weekly earnings but, it effects the life income benefit? or...Have you been through helping some 1400 members that got laid off during the bad times for the company? or... Have you been a member during the last 4 or 5 years (and counting) of record profits for the company that the membership contributed monetarily too (reduction in benefits) during the bad times and continue to produce the record number of products, that make all those years of record profits? As for my conspiracy theory drivel, I guess the facts can be seen in many different lights or angles. Is it a conspiracy that the IUAW used the same approach with GM as with FCA? Strike dead lines the same? The tentative agreement with the same timing? It is even being referenced as a very similar approach in the press. caustic, we do agree on a couple different points you have made. First, I do agree that not all can be corrupt and for sure not all are rapists. As for using "all" that can be seen as a very big generalization so, I would add if you have had the privilege to serve a membership as an e-board member then you will understand when I state that most not all locally elected or appointed Rep`s and the Regional Rep`s that have been pull up the latter from a local and for sure all the IUAW appointee`s know the pecking order. So the mid level IUAW Rep`s will agree with everything that comes down the pipe from solid house but, they will not be out spoken against anything that the incumbent caucus is pushing. It`s called self preservation. Yes we agree that there are assholes using their influence to take advantage of the benefits of their positions. On the board at this company or the company or a trustee of the fund or that fund and not to mention the IUAW Rep`s moon lighting as consultants. As for the peanut gallery..... I got to sit on the floor of a constitutional convention, contract convention and at many regional get together`s, many as an instructor. I found out first hand that not every time but, most times the peanut gallery was the membership that were present, the kings and queens were those at the big long tables being waited on by those Regional and IUAW appointee`s.... You are correct, I do ramble with the best of them. Thank G-d for those FCA members that made the IUAW do the J-O-B. Hopefully GM and Ford members will take their lead and do the same. Decker Your Life Income Benefit (LIB) can and has been raised in many contracts by itself and not tied to a hourly raise............. And that is what I am talking about. To say a raise is tied to your hourly rate is wrong if you are maxed out on the current formula, and many people are................ Also, the last time LIB was raised was in 2007, when $2.65 was added, and this is what I am talking about, not adding 5 cents because you just "jumped" to the next level in the formula....... There have been other contracts that have added $4.00 I will vote NO on any contract that doesn't add to the Life Income Benefit.................. And I mean the BENEFIT not the HOURLY RATE.............. Edited October 26, 2015 by lastmanstanding Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downtime1 Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 In my opinion everyone should ALWAYS vote NO on the first contract proposal. The first contract should NEVER pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decker Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 (edited) Your Life Income Benefit (LIB) can and has been raised in many contracts by itself and not tied to a hourly raise............. And that is what I am talking about. To say a raise is tied to your hourly rate is wrong if you are maxed out on the current formula, and many people are................ Also, the last time LIB was raised was in 2007, when $2.65 was added, and this is what I am talking about, not adding 5 cents because you just "jumped" to the next level in the formula....... There have been other contracts that have added $4.00 I will vote NO on any contract that doesn't add to the Life Income Benefit.................. And I mean the BENEFIT not the HOURLY RATE.............. I hear you lastmanstanding and I`m glad you are in the position of being at the top rate (hourly rate) for the LIB formula but, like myself and many other production employee`s we would see a increase in our life income benefit if there was an hourly increase. I hear you and it is your right to vote no on any contract for whatever your reason. "Your Life Income Benefit (LIB) can and has been raised in many contracts by itself and not tied to a hourly raise" , I hear you but, 2007 was the last LIB raise, right? Yes, when that happened, that benefited us all if the increase was equal across the formula. I`m not sure it was. That was the last time the members at the top of the hourly rate scale for the calculation of LIB got an increase right? So you are voting no because you are at the top hourly rate and won`t see an increase in your LIB unless this happens as a completely stand alone increase, because you are making the highest hourly rate, right? Our hourly rate puts a member on a scale that gives one element of the formula. Then you take that element (number) and multiply that element by years of service. Using this formula gives you a number that you will receive for the rest of your life. (Life Income Benefit) So if you are a member that has reached the maximum hourly rate, one of your elements will not increase your LIB benefits. Now lastmanstanding if you stick around making that highest hourly rate for every year past 30 years your LIB will increase because that part of the LIB formula gets larger. I would love to see an increase in the LIB (for current and future pension benefit recipients) and would spend the increase with the best of my ability but, I am not looking for just a benefit to help just the highest hourly rates get more of a benefit. So I hope you get your LIB increase but, voting no because this benefit isn`t in the contract, I`m sure that would not be something I would do. JMO You are aware of the LIB becoming a benefit of the past? This like so many other benefits is looked at as something that the company needs to leave behind. Just a week or two ago it was reported that JC Penny was yet another company offering the complete buy out of monthly pension benefit payments. Over 19000 employee`s excepted the offer. Another peanut gallery conspiracy....? nope just Decker rambling. Decker Edited October 27, 2015 by Decker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lastmanstanding Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 (edited) The 2007 LIB was across the board not just the top. Everyone received $2.65 over the life of the contract, and who said I was at the top?........... As I stated, for the last ten years the people waiting to retire, whether it's when the contract gets signed or a year or two down the road, have "lost" a good amount of cash in that time frame. Now would be the time for the Union to bargain for a LIB increase to show that 1) the Union appreciates what they have done over the course of those 10+ years........... 2) The company should go along with it because it helped them remain solvent. I am sure both sides see that........... Another way to look at it......... lets just say if we had a raise of $1 ten years ago....... At 1600 hrs a year that's $1600 x 10 = $16,000 If you work 500 hrs OT that's $750 x 10= 7,500 Added = $23,500............. Now you and I know this is Low-Balled........... This is just a $1.00 raise 10 years ago........... lost Now lets look at what a pay out would be..... Something for the guys who bailed your ass out when things went south........... (in more ways then one)......... Lets say they add $3.00 to LIB.......... and you got 30 yrs........... $90 x 12 = $1080 And how long till you break even?.................... 21.7 years........... What I'm saying here, we all shared in the pain when it all fell apart, why aren't we getting something in return when we leave? I don't care if LIB is becoming a thing of the past............ The people who worked and gave up a lot to keep everything moving in the right direction are here and now.......... It's the present and they are bargaining for OUR FUTURE.................Don't care about J.C. Penny............. That's their business........... and they don't build cars Just my thoughts................. Edited October 31, 2015 by lastmanstanding 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decker Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 It is a good thing you don`t care about the LIB becoming a thing of the past because, if Ford is a mirror image of GM, you`ll be voting no. $500.00 gift card and free legal service, IUAW and GM really think highly of those retiree`s? Decker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lastmanstanding Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 It is a good thing you don`t care about the LIB becoming a thing of the past because, if Ford is a mirror image of GM, you`ll be voting no. $500.00 gift card and free legal service, IUAW and GM really think highly of those retiree`s? Decker You can be a FUNNY man.......I am NOT talking about current retires and you know it...........and for you to use it here I can see you have no answer for my statements ( I didn't even factor in COLA, the figure would be much higher) and you are less then neutral when it comes to caring for what happens to the people who fought to get YOU where YOU are today..... LIB is my future because I am not a Tier 2 person. Any person who is a LEGACY EMPLOYEE, Life Income Benefit is their future also... For a TIER 2 EMPLOYEE, it is a thing of the past because they will never see it............... I can see you don't care, so I am guessing, as you guessed with me, that you are a tier 2 person. If not, Life Income Benefit is also your future............. and if you "get some now", hopefully the Union will remember what you did for the company so they could remain solvent, you can add to that later............As for GM and the Union, they have now turned their backs on the very people who saved them.............for without GM and Chrysler, where would the UAW be? At least the Union got something for the current retirees........... they really can't push the issue if the company says "sorry, not gonna happen" can they.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decker Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 lastmanstanding As for, "no answer for your statement". I think your calculations look pretty much on target. I don`t really have an answer to or for "hopefully the Union will remember what you did for the company so they could remain solvent" or ."As for GM and the Union, they have now turned their backs on the very people who saved them". But if I took a guess I would have to answer with something like this, hoping the union remembers what the membership did to keep them solvent is kinda like hoping to hit the lotto. Better odds with the lotto. Your statement about turning their backs on the membership, a very short answer to that statement, "again". I agree with your statement about "we should get something for the last ten years of no hourly increases" and all the other give backs, but as you stated "It's the present and they are bargaining for OUR FUTURE................." so you are correct we won`t get anything for those years of not getting an hourly increase or any give backs. That`s in the past. Right? Oh, for the record I`m legacy on this side of the keyboard. A funny man? not so much. You win, lastmanstanding. You`ve got me completely confused. (not a big accomplishment) I do have a feeling we are in the same book, just not on the same page. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longball Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 (edited) Could one of you gentlemen refresh my memory what is Life Income Benefit? Edited October 29, 2015 by longball Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmooret Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 How about one of the Ladies do that for you! The LIB is a unit with a dollar value. Your monthly retirement is calculated by multiplying your number of years of service times the LIB. I went on line and did a calculation on mine which revealed that the current LIB is about $54. I've been here 31 years, so 31 X $54 = $1674. Should I stay till the next contract the calculation would be 35 X $54 = $1890. This is for what they call the Single Life Benefit. If you have a spouse your monthly benefit is reduced by about $200. What the previous poster is trying to point out is that in the past each new contract would add to the value of the LIB and would continue to raise it for each year of the contract. Thus your LIB unit/value would increase. I don't recall by how much so maybe someone else can help you there, seems like maybe $1-$2. Based on the raise your LIB unit/value would increase from $54 to $56 so your calculations would be different. The previous poster is trying to bring it to everyone's attention that there seems to be no raise in the LIB in the FCM or GM contract. They want us to retire using the same LIB value that they used for retirees ten years ago. Also, in previous contracts our first COLA raise would be deferred to the folks who had already retired instead of us. So in years past the retirees would continue to get a small raise. Now not only are we screwing past retirees, we're screwing ourselves by not negotiating an increase in the LIB. My memory is not so great these days so if anyone wishes to make corrections/additions to my post please do so for the sake of correctness or clarification. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decker Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 How about one of the Ladies do that for you! The LIB is a unit with a dollar value. Your monthly retirement is calculated by multiplying your number of years of service times the LIB. I went on line and did a calculation on mine which revealed that the current LIB is about $54. I've been here 31 years, so 31 X $54 = $1674. Should I stay till the next contract the calculation would be 35 X $54 = $1890. This is for what they call the Single Life Benefit. If you have a spouse your monthly benefit is reduced by about $200. What the previous poster is trying to point out is that in the past each new contract would add to the value of the LIB and would continue to raise it for each year of the contract. Thus your LIB unit/value would increase. I don't recall by how much so maybe someone else can help you there, seems like maybe $1-$2. Based on the raise your LIB unit/value would increase from $54 to $56 so your calculations would be different. The previous poster is trying to bring it to everyone's attention that there seems to be no raise in the LIB in the FCM or GM contract. They want us to retire using the same LIB value that they used for retirees ten years ago. Also, in previous contracts our first COLA raise would be deferred to the folks who had already retired instead of us. So in years past the retirees would continue to get a small raise. Now not only are we screwing past retirees, we're screwing ourselves by not negotiating an increase in the LIB. My memory is not so great these days so if anyone wishes to make corrections/additions to my post please do so for the sake of correctness or clarification. Great job, pmooret. We did in my 39 years, send some help to the current retiree`s by deferring some cola adjustments and there was the year (I too can`t remember the year) the leadership (then) held out for the 13th payment for the current retiree`s (then) and the membership voted for that payment in that national agreement. So many retiree`s referred to this payment as their Christmas bonus but, the language was a 13th payment to help off set out of pocket costs that the retiree`s had. (then) Think of the out of pocket costs that have been put in place with the VEBA coverage. Now realize that 13th payment to help off set out of pocket costs has been gone for I think 5 or 6 years. Remember the retiree`s have also given up benefits during the company`s problem time and been handed a VEBA coverage that is still under funded and their co pays just keep going up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lastmanstanding Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 (edited) How about one of the Ladies do that for you! The LIB is a unit with a dollar value. Your monthly retirement is calculated by multiplying your number of years of service times the LIB. I went on line and did a calculation on mine which revealed that the current LIB is about $54. I've been here 31 years, so 31 X $54 = $1674. Should I stay till the next contract the calculation would be 35 X $54 = $1890. This is for what they call the Single Life Benefit. If you have a spouse your monthly benefit is reduced by about $200. What the previous poster is trying to point out is that in the past each new contract would add to the value of the LIB and would continue to raise it for each year of the contract. Thus your LIB unit/value would increase. I don't recall by how much so maybe someone else can help you there, seems like maybe $1-$2. Based on the raise your LIB unit/value would increase from $54 to $56 so your calculations would be different. The previous poster is trying to bring it to everyone's attention that there seems to be no raise in the LIB in the FCM or GM contract. They want us to retire using the same LIB value that they used for retirees ten years ago. Also, in previous contracts our first COLA raise would be deferred to the folks who had already retired instead of us. So in years past the retirees would continue to get a small raise. Now not only are we screwing past retirees, we're screwing ourselves by not negotiating an increase in the LIB. My memory is not so great these days so if anyone wishes to make corrections/additions to my post please do so for the sake of correctness or clarification. Last increase was $2.65 in 2007............. Before that there were years where it has increased $4.00 (in the good old days)............ So the increase is based on nothing more then what the bargaining team can get the company to agree upon............. But they do have to ask for an increase, the company won't volunteer to pay more because in goes against their profit. If you retire before 62, you get somewhere around $3100 a month........... When you become 62 the company drops the $3100 and factors in your LIB x years of service to get your monthly retirement pay.............. That with your SS check is what you then receive for your income monthly.......... OOPS............ Forgot something............... If you get a raise in your hourly rate, you may get a raise in your LIB, although it would be smaller then stated above Took 2 edits say say this?????? Ouch............. hehehaha Edited October 29, 2015 by lastmanstanding 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longball Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Thanks Ms. Pmooret... I retired in 2008 and was a little fuzzy about LIB Not 62 yet so this hasn't been on my mind. Good luck with this contract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2seater Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Hi pmooret, I work at the same plant you do. Im not disputing what you said, just a little confused, I also went online to a Ford UAW site that had a retirment calculator, didnt see LIB on there but my monthly benefit said it said would be $3100, why is yours only $1674? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmooret Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Probably because I'm already 62 and you are probably younger! There are three parts (source of payment) to your retirement check. "First" your LIB, which never changes. You may get a small increase or raise but that's about it. This benefit you start drawing from day one of your retirement and you will draw this for your entire life, that's why it is call Life Income Benefit. In the above example mine was $1674 at present, but I have not retired yet. The "Second" source you may or may not draw, it depends on what your age is when you retire. This is what they refer to as "Supplemental Insurance". If you are under 62 when you retire you will draw, in addition to your LIB, a Supplemental Insurance payment. This payment also comes from Ford. This is usually an amount equal to a Social Security payment for a person who is 62. The "Third" source is Social Security. Once you reach 62 your Supplemental Insurance STOPS and you begin to draw Social Security instead. My guess is the reason you got $3100 for your payment is because you are eligible for the Supplemental Insurance, thus it did not break it down for you. Part of that $3100 is your LIB and the other part is your Supplement. Because I am already 62 I do not qualify for Supplemental Insurance and would have to draw Social Security. Go back to the website and do a "retirement projection" for after you turn 62. This will give you your LIB only. Just a FYI for those who are nearing retirement age. If you retire at 62 Social Security considers that an early retirement and reduces your payment and also limits the amount of money you can make from another job. However, for every year that you work past 62 your Social Security increases by roughly $150 a month. The restrictions for job income drop off at 66 (could be 65) so if you work an additional four years and don't start drawing Social Security until age 66 your Social Security benefit goes up by roughly $600. Add an additional $200 from your LIB that you earned by staying four more years and that is a grand total of $800 for staying four more years. Of course each persons situation and health will determine if they want to stay an additional four years. 2Seater, if I didn't do a good job explaining this please say something. Sorry for typos, no spell check. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2seater Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 (edited) No thank you very much. You also answered my next question also about ss & 62 etc. Very informative. Thanks again! Edited October 30, 2015 by 2seater Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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