Ford investing $145M in 3.5L EcoBoost plant

[fordtech1]

As far as I can tell, none of the modern DI or EB engines have reported any significant issues with crud build up

on the back side of the inlet valves, that had more to do with early versions of European engines with improper

stem sealing. With all the Ecoboosts running around we would have heard something by now.......

There has been some issues with it. I personally haven't seen very many but have seen it. The ones I know of look to be caused by poor maintenance. Exceptionally long times between oil changes and driving habits. I believe Audi has had this issue for a while. I've heard GM has had this issue also. The walnut blasting from back in the day may come back.

[fordmantpw]

Taurus SHO taking off all of a sudden?

 

Hmmm, doubtful.

 

Maybe expecting larger sales for the next gen Expy / Navi. Ranger, Bronco, Aviator ?

 

Quite possible.

 

I seems to me the EB35 is the heavy-hitter of the F-150 so maybe folks realize they don't need it and the EB27 is working just great for them. As for the EB35 going to the F-250, I hope so too.

 

Yes, I agree that's why the 2.7L sales have taken such a big chunk of the sales. The 2.7L is quite the performer.

 

 

Well, wasn't the 2.7 intended to be the volume engine anyway? So not as if it's unexpected, given the way the engine availability is structured......that said, it does make the investment interesting. But...is this investment to expand production? Or simply for improvements to the facility to produce the new version (with new processes, etc).

 

 

Yes, it was expected for the 2.7L to take quite a few of the sales. Just wondering where the new sales of the 3.5L are going to come from.

 

No, it's an evolution of the previous Cyclone, much like Coyote was to previous Mod Motor.

It's definitly not a Nano because it still has an alloy block and shared the previous 3.5's bore and stroke.

 

 

 

No, the new 3.5L is supposed to be CGI I believe.

 

 

The 2 generation 3.5 l EcoBoost V6 will be a completly new engine. The only similarity will be the displacement 3,5. The new engine will have a dual injection system , port and direct and I have reason till belive that this is because it will have TWO fuels like the BobCat had in 2009.

 

Mike Levine that now is employed by Ford wrote this article in 2009 as a prediction of the new EcoBoost that was slated to arrive 2016. By an Ethanolinjection, E85, Ford can rise the octane of regular fuels 88-91 to the maximum 130 oktane. This leads to improved efficency, less fuel is needed and more power will be the result. The peak combustion pressure will rise from 17 Bar to around 30 Bar and this requires CGI in the block, just like the BobCat had.

The new 3,5 l V6 will have a stunning power far over 411 hp.

Pickuptruck

http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2009/06/sneak-peek-ford-bobcat-dual-fuel-engine.html

 

and

at page 11 the block material, CGI, same as the 2,7 l EcoBoost and the 6.7 l PowerStroke

 

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/merit_review_2008/fuels/merit08_aagarwal.pdf

 

Mike Levines Twitter

were he reveals the dual injection systems.

 

https://twitter.com/mrlevine/status/703084856641597440

 

and

 

https://twitter.com/mrlevine/status/703203518669320192

 

"Sounds familiar! :-)"

 

I don't think we will see the Bobcat.

 

Mike Levine did confirm in a tweet that the rest of the F150 llineup (or at least models other than the Raptor) will get the new 3.5L and 10 speed for the '17 model year.

[jpd80]

No, the new 3.5L is supposed to be CGI I believe.

The GT's engine block appears to be Aluminum or am I misreading the gray of a CGI block?

 

 

I don't think we will see the Bobcat.

Probably right but I bet Ford has that contingency covered if it needed a diesel alternative...

 

 

 

Mike Levine did confirm in a tweet that the rest of the F150 llineup (or at least models other than the Raptor) will get the new 3.5L and 10 speed for the '17 model year.

That's excellent news and probably indicates a steady roll in of Gen 2 3.5 EB will leave the Gen 1 3.5 EB

in FWD/AWD applications until natural product breaks to avoid rushing things......

Edited February 29, 2016 by jpd80

[fordmantpw]

The GT's engine block appears to be Aluminum or am I misreading the gray of a CGI block?

 

 

Probably right but I bet Ford has that contingency covered if it needed a diesel alternative...

 

 

 

That's excellent news and probably indicates a steady roll in of Gen 2 3.5 EB will leave the Gen 1 3.5 EB

in FWD/AWD applications until natural product breaks to avoid rushing things......

 

I can't tell based on the pic, but I wouldn't think Ford would go Al on the new 3.5L while the 2.7L is CGI.

 

With the 3.0L pushing 400 HP, I expect the 3.5L to drop off from the FWD/AWD vehicles and them move toward the 2.7L/3.0L.

[jpd80]

 

I can't tell based on the pic, but I wouldn't think Ford would go Al on the new 3.5L while the 2.7L is CGI.

 

With the 3.0L pushing 400 HP, I expect the 3.5L to drop off from the FWD/AWD vehicles and them move toward the 2.7L/3.0L.

Yeah at the Raptor reveal, part of the announcement was 3.5 Ecoboost with new alloy block...

 

Here are the vitals:

• The Raptor will be 500 pounds lighter than the current model.
• FOX 3.0 Internal Bypass front and rear.
• The new Raptor’s engine will be a 3.5L Ecoboost V6 with a new aluminum block and upgraded internals, revised heads, and tweaked fuel-delivery equipment for a rumored 450-500HP.
• The new Raptor will be ~6″ wider than the standard new model 2015 F-150.
• 10-speed transmission.
• Paddle shifters!
• 6 Upfitter (AUX) switches.
• Push button start!
• “The four-wheel-drive system in the next-gen Raptor will include a Terrain Management with settings for Normal driving, Street driving, Weather mode (for rain, snow or ice), Mud and Sand, Baja mode and Rock mode. According to Ford, the Raptor’s new transfer case is designed to work as both a locking unit for crawling and a full-time unit for other off-road applications. A Torsen front differential will be optional.”

LINK

[fordmantpw]

Interesting, I missed the Al block part.

 

But, that's not straight from Ford. I still think it will be CGI, and will until I see it from Ford.

[Stray Kat]

Please please please Ford, offer these new 3.5 EB's to markets like the performance sand car industry to at least give some alternative to the ubiquitous GM LS powerplant. I know, I know this is the emotional side of things as opposed to dry business decisions BUT!!! , I am sure of one thing. Automobiles and trucks are very often objects that people get passionate about.

 

GM has the retrofit market sewed up in every way and so completely you'd think everyone else is building junk. If your weekend toys are the exclusive domain of General Motors what does that say about everyone else? I guarantee you people notice. The vast majority of new inboard boats, air boats, sand cars and street rods of all makes are fitted with GM engines. In addition whole racing series are adopting mandatory "spec" GM LS based engine rules. This includes ASA and ARCA.

 

If you think that is lost on people you are sorely mistaken. Many people for example choose GM pickups just for the powerplant and driveline.

 

In the case of Ford they have cultivated the Ecoboost range into almost a stand alone brand. For it not to be utilized in some niche markets would be opportunity lost. It's been a long time but with Ecoboost Ford has moved from GM's giant shadow and finally showing the driveline technology leaders that they are. If they chose to start a serious interaction with off roaders, boaters, hot rodders, etc., I'm quite sure Ford could cement Ecoboost as an iconic and legendary brandname like Mustang and Bronco.

 

The reason I bring this up is because of the sheer numbers of these things Ford is producing now and plans to continue producing. With this Gen II 3.5 we are undoubtedly looking at the perfect version for aftermarket performance use. If I'm right and this engine is suited to provide say 4 or 5 hundred horsepower in factory form, Ford will sell all they can make.

 

Before you pooh pooh this idea, think for a minute. What makes something iconic and therefore desirable in America?

[coupe3w]

Not going to happen. The after market is married to GM and V8's.

[akirby]

What makes something iconic and therefore desirable in America?

 

For the current crop of GM engines you just mentioned - it's because they're cheap and plentiful. And how many of those are simple carbureted engines?

 

3.5LEBs would not be cheap nor simple.

 

I understand the emotional aspect - but as you imply it's just not a good business decision.

[Biker16]

As far as I can tell, none of the modern DI or EB engines have reported any significant issues with crud build up

on the back side of the inlet valves, that had more to do with early versions of European engines with improper

stem sealing. With all the Ecoboosts running around we would have heard something by now.......

 

The crud Forming on valves isn't due to Valve stem sealing, but the Crank case ventilation that can system, and The EGR system.

 

The lack of Fuel to wash the valves causes this problem.

 

[Stray Kat]

For the current crop of GM engines you just mentioned - it's because they're cheap and plentiful. And how many of those are simple carbureted engines?

 

3.5LEBs would not be cheap nor simple.

 

I understand the emotional aspect - but as you imply it's just not a good business decision.

 

 

......and so it goes. BTW I'm not talking about junkyard 350's here, I'm talking about first tier new engines that are production based. Trust me if there were more plug and play options with products like the 3.5 you would see movement towards them. I'm not asking for Ford to change their production car thinking in any way, rather I'm hoping that they will share information with key niche markets to make it easy to work with them.

 

What a lot of people probably don't think about is the contrast of the current aftermarket compared to days of old. Formerly in order to generate say 400 hp you were completely redesigning the engine and trans. Labor intensive methods like head porting, displacement enlargement and cam and valvetrain work. Now today you can literally plug in 400 or 500 hp and exceed that with tuning and power adders.

 

My point here is this article about the Gen II 3.5 indicates that Ford has moved into a realm with this unique package that really no one could match if properly cultivated.

 

The question is do we want to lead or do we keep playing underdog?

[Stray Kat]

BTW, this isn't a silly pipe dream. There are some on the inside that have toyed with the idea. Here is the evidence:

[akirby]

But you can take a 5.0 Coyote at 435 hp (available as a crate engine) and bolt on a supercharger and get 700 reliable hp all day long today. A race prepped 3.5L EB is only going to produce 600-650. Street versions are probably a bit less.

 

The current 3.5LEB is already available as a plug and play crate engine and I'm sure the new one will be as well. But I don't see many SBC customers flocking to it.

[Stray Kat]

You miss my point entirely. Respectfully I ask, is there a factory version of the Coyote or GM LS that can pull 600hp with just a tune? You're saying one could use a Coyote then bolt on a blower then you have the barely exceeded what the Gen II 3.5 could do with factory hard parts. The typical GM LS engine makes a little over 400hp and requires modification to achieve the 700hp you're talking about.

 

Furthermore if you add a blower to either the Coyote or LS I would venture to guess that you will have now exceeded the 3.5's weight by a hundred pounds or so. That matters.

[akirby]

The mass market 3.5LEB is only 450 hp. 600 is the RACE version. You're not going to tune it much beyond the race version with any kind of reliability.

[sullynd]

As akirby notes, the current 3.5EB is available as a crate. A turbo'd engine isn't going to be an easy install, and custom installs add a tone of variables. Would a turbo engine work well on a boat where the exhaust exits below the waterline? Not all inboard boats are GM. See the Indmar "Raptor" Engines.

 

http://www.indmar.com/Engine/RaptorSeries/RAPTORSERIES.aspx

[Stray Kat]

The mass market 3.5LEB is only 450 hp. 600 is the RACE version. You're not going to tune it much beyond the race version with any kind of reliability.

 

 

While there are a some applications where 1000hp may be needed to win bragging rights, I think 450-500 hp would fit a lot of people's needs. If I can't convince you of that (assume you're a Ford enthusiast) then maybe I'm the one that's off base. Never mind.

 

Also to the other fellow, turbo installs are not going to be as difficult as you think if the engine package comes fully dressed like they do. Based on the skills of many enthusiasts I think they can handle the inter cooler plumbing, if that's what you're talking about.

[akirby]

So what is the advantage of an expensive 450 hp 3.5LEB over a 435 hp 5.0L Coyote or 500 hp 5.2L FPC or a SC 5.0L Coyote at 500-700 hp?

 

BTW - since the current 3.5LEB is already available as a factory crate engine, so I assume the new one will be too at some point. So if that's all you want I'm sure it's coming.

 

However, I don't believe for a second that it will displace all those small block chevy engines in aftermarket and non-automotive applications because the Chevy will be cheaper and more plentiful with more aftermarket support.

Edited February 29, 2016 by akirby

[Stray Kat]

So what is the advantage of an expensive 450 hp 3.5LEB over a 435 hp 5.0L Coyote or 500 hp 5.2L FPC or a SC 5.0L Coyote at 500-700 hp?

 

BTW - since the current 3.5LEB is already available as a factory crate engine, so I assume the new one will be too at some point. So if that's all you want I'm sure it's coming.

 

However, I don't believe for a second that it will displace all those small block chevy engines in aftermarket and non-automotive applications because the Chevy will be cheaper and more plentiful with more aftermarket support.

 

 

Let me see if I can articulate my point better. If a company makes something that is used in their current medium to high volume production line products a strong case can be made that the unit cost of said item could be much lower than a similar unit that is out of production or custom made.

 

The GM LS engine is basically obsolete as far as current car and truck applications. The engine family has been replaced by the LT series which is quite a bit different and nothing if great consequence will interchange save for the transmission.

 

Therefore in order for GM to supply new LS engines they will have to maintain a niche line or move production to Mexico etc. Ford is still building EB's and has just reinvested in the next phase according to this article.

 

It stands to reason that the 3.5EB which is being produced in the tens of thousands may have an actual price advantage over the aforementioned LS engine. Now of course we can avoid talking about the vaunted "junkyard LS" because that simply is a different matter.

 

Does this make any sense now? Does Ford want any of these types of sales opportunities? Is the 3.5EB truly a V8 alternative and the wave of the future? Some minds could be swayed if they could witness great performance in the context of auto or truck sport etc.

[92merc]

So the question comes down to this: Is the Juice worth the Squeeze?

 

Ford has to make money on the deal for sure. But it will only work if the production line can fulfill all needs for the vehicle platforms and have some capacity left over.

[akirby]

It all comes down to how much excess production capacity they have to support such an aftermarket venture, in addition to the market potential which we could argue about for days.

[Stray Kat]

So the question comes down to this: Is the Juice worth the Squeeze?

 

Ford has to make money on the deal for sure. But it will only work if the production line can fulfill all needs for the vehicle platforms and have some capacity left over.

 

 

If you can only see numbers and have no sense of destiny then the answer is no. If you had a vision for your company and cared about its heritage and displaying technical achievement in order to enhance the perception of what you can do, then the answer is yes, within reason.

[akirby]

If you can only see numbers and have no sense of destiny then the answer is no. If you had a vision for your company and cared about its heritage and displaying technical achievement in order to enhance the perception of what you can do, then the answer is yes, within reason.

But some would argue that vehicles like the Ford GT and the Raptor and the GT350 Mustang are doing exactly that already and doing it at a profit and with far more visibility than a crate engine would.

[Stray Kat]

No argument there. I concur wholeheartedly. Let's just say I am hoping that this giant new program called Ford Performance can see branching out into some of these specialty markets and really make themselves a household entity. There are quite literally billions of dollars traded in the aftermarket industry and as a Ford fan I hope they decide to grab some of that pie. I think the market might be ripe and Ford is now in a unique position with the amazing Ecoboost line in my humble estimation.

[akirby]

I get it - it's the classic Ford vs Chevy battle. We just disagree on the business opportunity.